Standoff in Nevada as Militias "mobilize" to support rancher

[Thanas]

It is pretty funny how a few idiots with guns get to flout the government laws all they want while other people get droned for saying mean things about america.

That being said, no way should any modern state ever back down to such demands made and enforced by the barrel of a gun.

[Raj Ahten]

The BLM backing off for the moment is the right move. No one (except maybe the militia assholes) wants a replay of the firefights and standoffs of the nineties. Reassess the situation, get warrants and arrest any of the jackasses who broke any laws a few weeks from now after its calmed down. It doesn't help local senators and such are backing douchebag rancher.

Edit: to elaborate a bit going in all gung ho is what arguably turned the Branch Davidian siege into such a cluster Fuck. No need to confront this asshole, or more importantly the militia loons, on their home turf. Once it's been figured out what they can be charged with arrest their asses when they are stepping out of walmart with the US Marshalls instead of having a chaotic firefight in the desert.

[Rogue 9]

Yeah, this isn't the last we'll hear of it. They're almost certainly waiting for the militia loons to go home before swooping in to make arrests.

[Simon_Jester]

Would it be reassuring if, say, the federal government had moved in in battalion strength to 'crush the rebellion' or whatever we want to call it?

I mean, given the trends of the past ten years, at that point I'd start worrying that we'd finally seen the day of true, profound blowback. The day when all the vicious oppression the US government directs overseas, to certain parts of certain countries finally comes home to roost. There are a lot of reasons NOT to want that day.

[This is not to downplay the oppression a Yemeni would experience having a funeral blown up by a missile from a drone in Yemen. But compared to a government that murders foreigners, a government that summarily shoots its own citizens for being vaguely defiant and slightly organized against it is a whole different order of problem. A government that murders foreigners can stop if someone persuades its electorate; a government that murders its domestic political opposition is not so easily dealt with.

[Thanas]

That is a false dilemma. You don't need to drone them to crush them nor do you need to attack them.

[Borgholio]

Ugh. While I'm glad the BLM backed down to prevent possible violence, I just know that these "militias" are going to use this as an example of how if they want to break the law again, just get a few hundred screaming idiots with rifles and they can get their way. I'm worried about what might happen next time there's a confrontation.

Since Bundy has stated that he's only willing to pay the state and not the Feds, I think a reasonable workaround will be to cut a check to Nevada and have them hand it over to the Feds...but I doubt it would end that easily...

[loomer]

There's a good chance some of the militias will suddenly be broken up in the coming months. Quite a lot of them are involved in relatively minor offences that no one cares enough to enforce, but their leadership might suddenly find themselves up on charges for things the FBI have known for years but didn't think important enough to bother with. E.g., quite a lot of them make illegal explosives for their own entertainment out in the woods. Not a threat to anyone, so who cares - until suddenly you need to be able to use that offence as a pretense.

[Elfdart]

Ah, white privilege!

Somehow I doubt the feds and local law enforcement would have turned tail if say, a bunch of dark-skinned folk in an inner city had brandished firearms while interfering with the enforcement of the law.

[Raj Ahten]

After looking into this a little more I can't help but be really pissed at this rancher asshole. He's the member one of the most coddled professions in the nation but acts like everything is his by right. He only owed a million dollars for illegally grazing over a thousand cattle for twenty years. That's cheap as hell. I wonder what the taxes would have been if he owned the land outright? Plus I imagine all his water that makes ranching at all possible comes at a greatly reduced rate and with him receiving priority over cities thanks to the feds. Not to mention federally subsidized agricultural insurance. But all he can do is go on and on about his rights when he's got more privileges than a medieval lord. I hope these bastards get the book thrown at them. Ranchers as a class are people I can't say I agree with on any damn issue.

[Simon_Jester]

That is a false dilemma. You don't need to drone them to crush them nor do you need to attack them.

I agree- neither of those things is necessary.

My point is simply that I would feel worse if the whole thing had ended in blood than with the whole thing ending in law enforcement backing off and (presumably) preparing to arrest the guilty parties later.

I am actually concerned about the prospect of the US turning its increasingly well-honed security apparatus to the oppression of its own people. So any sign that this is not happening, that the velvet glove and not the iron fist still dominates US dealings with its own dissident and radical groups* reassures me a bit on that score.

*Including the crazy stupid ones...

[Tsyroc]

My point is simply that I would feel worse if the whole thing had ended in blood than with the whole thing ending in law enforcement backing off and (presumably) preparing to arrest the guilty parties later.

I am actually concerned about the prospect of the US turning its increasingly well-honed security apparatus to the oppression of its own people. So any sign that this is not happening, that the velvet glove and not the iron fist still dominates US dealings with its own dissident and radical groups* reassures me a bit on that score.

*Including the crazy stupid ones...

I agree.

My first reaction was kind of "I wish the Feds had rolled in there and stomped them hard and fast". But then reality kicked in and I remembered that as soon as they start doing that successfully it's likely to happen more and more. Just look at all the militarized bits of police forces around the US. It comes back to the old saying that "to the hammer every problem looks like a nail". Besides, if they went in with that much force it is much more likely to turn into a blood bath and another Ruby Ridge / Branch Davidians style rallying point for the lunatic militia fringe.

I really hope this guy and his supporters end up in jail but I'd much rather have the Feds do it through slow methodical law enforcement work than having a giant "homeland army" that they use throughout the US.

[madd0ct0r]

yah. think of the London riots.

Huge amount of stuff happening, but no-one was shot, and people were steadily arrested for weeks afterward.

[Thanas]

I think nothing is going to happen to the guys in question. Elfdart got it right. All this is is merely confirming that some groups (namely white racists) are allowed to break the law if they threaten to make a mess.

Remind me the last time a militia got broken up and its members jailed? Anybody?

[Zaune]

Would it be reassuring if, say, the federal government had moved in in battalion strength to 'crush the rebellion' or whatever we want to call it?

Yes! When a well-armed and organised paramilitary group is digging in for a fight then you shut that shit down with extreme prejudice and you make damn sure you are seen doing it, lest it embolden a hundred other such groups and you have an even bigger problem on your hands.

[loomer]

I think nothing is going to happen to the guys in question. Elfdart got it right. All this is is merely confirming that some groups (namely white racists) are allowed to break the law if they threaten to make a mess.

Remind me the last time a militia got broken up and its members jailed? Anybody?

Remember the Montana Freemen?

[Thanas]

Yeah, where the state did exactly the opposite as it did here. There they made damn sure they arrested them on the standoff site.

EDIT: I see your point but that was in 1996.

[Col. Crackpot]

Ah, white privilege!

Somehow I doubt the feds and local law enforcement would have turned tail if say, a bunch of dark-skinned folk in an inner city had brandished firearms while interfering with the enforcement of the law.

Oh please. The government charging in guns blazing is exactly what the militia morons have been havin having wet dreams of for decades. Video of gun battles between good old boys and the evil gunmen on you tube and fox news? That would have done nothing but energize the militia movement. Discretion is the better part of valor. Pick these nutbags off one by one with arrest warrants when they are out buying duck dynasty hats at Wal-Mart.

[Gandalf]

So PR is a concern in law enforcement?

[loomer]

Frankly, yes. Managing the predictable effects of action is of necessity a part of responsible law enforcement.

[Gandalf]

So it's the "impeach Bush" debate again. Is there an index somewhere of who gets to break what laws because of their place in society?

[loomer]

There's a difference between 'let them break the law with impunity' and 'act to avoid maximizing the amount of possible harm', Gandalf. Waiting for shit to cool down before picking them up doesn't let them get away with anything - but it does hopefully keep people from getting killed.

[Col. Crackpot]

So PR is a concern in law enforcement?

Indeed. As is minimizing the use of force... or in this case the body count as those in need of enforcing are heavily armed, very well organized, batshit crazy and feel backed into a corner.

[Havok]

So, as the person I am, I have a fuckton of ultra conservative "friends". One of them posts stuff constantly on his facebook page. He is a smart guy, but I find him deluded and he strikes me as a guy that thinks the way he does because he is too weird to be around people that don't think the way he does, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I do find what he posts interesting and as it is in complete opposition to the entire position of this thread, I will post a little Devil's Advocate links.

http://tavernkeepers.com/bundyranch-its ... nd-stupid/

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-1 ... y-big-deal

http://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmcc ... /page/full

I'm pretty sure the links are all to conservative sites and please keep in mind that this isn't my stance.

[Siege]

When a SWAT-team breaks down the door, shoots the dog and tasers the kid of a small-time offender a good many of us here are rightfully wondering what the fuck the police were thinking and if they couldn't have carried out that arrest in a less heavy-handedly violent way.

This looks like the federal equivalent of police reconsidering their approach. If they can come back in a week or two and quietly arrest these bozo's without having to blow away a dozen-odd Deer Hunter wannabes, then good on them for being sensible and not forcing a bloody confrontation when they don't have to.

The federal government sending in a batallion of national guard to get in a big firefight with them is the sort of cowboy nonsense militia yokels are looking for. It's what they expect, it's what they're geared up for, and quite possibly what they've trained for. So don't give it to them, because grandiose statements of power will just result in bloodshed and terrible PR. You can just wait them out. They'll beat themselves on the chest for a bit and then disperse, and then you pick them up one by one when they aren't ready for it, just like Col. Crackpot said.

Now if in six months or so none of that's happened, then that would be cause for concern. But so far I'd say the authorities are operating surprisingly sensibly. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. Pretend inferiority and encourage arrogance. He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious. That's, like, Sun Tzu 101, man.

[Broomstick]

I think nothing is going to happen to the guys in question. Elfdart got it right. All this is is merely confirming that some groups (namely white racists) are allowed to break the law if they threaten to make a mess.

Remind me the last time a militia got broken up and its members jailed? Anybody?

Off the top of my head, the only ones I'm familiar with are the Oklahoma City bombing conspirators.

Timothy McVeigh: convicted of multiple counts of murder, arson, conspiracy, etc. and executed on June 11, 2001
Terry Nichols: convicted of multiple counts of murder, arson, conspiracy, etc., life in prison without parole
Michael Fortier: convicted of conspiracy, turned state's evidence and plea bargained, in jail until 2006 then released into the witness protection program.

However, a quick search yields:

Montana Freemen: 1996, surrendered after an 81 day siege, 14 members brought up on charges. Not sure of convictions.
Republic of Texas: 1997, surrendered after a week long stand-off, 4 member sent to prison.

Post 2001 the militia movement went into decline, only to resurge after the election of Barack Obama. Government policy is largely to leave them alone so long as they keep to themselves and keep their ideology to talk. You're allowed to have batshit crazy views, after all, as long as you behave yourself. Most of the Federal action is apparently low-key and attempts to avoid violence, basically containing them until they surrender rather than provoke an outburst so yes, this might have been a case of backing down short-term to come back at these people later via law enforcement means when they're individuals rather than a group.