Ideal govenemtal systems

[Sriad]

I very much like the idea of having a LARGE legislature chosen from the population of the governed body, like 3,000 or so. They could be selected from individuals who registered for the job, like we register to vote now. You wouldn't HAVE to, just like you don't have to vote.

The problem with having a single enlightened absolute ruler is you only need to get ONE nut in charge and everything would go straight to hell. The advantage of the 3KL is that you'd need 1501 nuts, which is highly unlikely. The terms they served would be pretty long I think: maybe two years as a paid but non-voting member learning the ropes and getting a detailed political education, six years as a voting member, and another two as a senior member with special powers; senior members could have priority speaking on proposed laws and that sort of thing. Or groups could appoint their own leaders with Senior powers. Anyway, that works out to having 3600 people serving the in the legislature, 600 of them as non-voting juniors and 600 as senior officials. In addition to the 3000 member super-body, there would be a bunch of smaller groups focused on particular specialties, and also each individual would participate in smaller groups (of say, 60 or so) dedicated to debate and discussion that there wouldn't be time for in the larger group.

Anyway, my chief concern is that the ideal government is the one that has the easiest time promoting positive change and the hardest producing negative change. I think a system like this one would be pretty good at that.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

My idea of a good government:

It would be a federal-type government. At the lowest level, we'd have a bicameral legislative body. One half would be elected, though they would have to demonstrate basic competence/experience before being placed on the ballot. But other than that, the model would be very similar to the United States Congress.

However, my government and the US government diverge quite radically from here. Where the American government has an elected President who appoints the members of the judicial side of the goverment, mine would take a slightly different tack.

On one side, we have a council of ministers. Say twelve ministers plus one prime-minister. (This ensures that the body can't deadlock, as the there is always somebody who can break a tie.) They're appointed by the Senate and serve lifetime terms, unless a majority of the other ministers, or a supermajority of the Senate votes to remove them. On the other side, we have the President and his or her cabinet. The President is initially elected by the House of Representatives, But, unlike his counterpart, the prime minister, he serves in terms, say about ten or fifteen years. (Four years was great when you expected your presidents to conk out in 67 years, but now, it's a little short.) And at the end of each term, he has to undergo a vote of confidence/no-confidence from the public. If he gets his vote of confidence, he sticks around for ten more years. If not, then the House of Representatives elects a new one.

Is this a good way to do things?

[XPViking]

The less complex the system, the better. Having some kind of randomly chosen legislative body sounds damned ridiculous.

XPViking

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The ideal government is formed by a single informed, intelligent, benevolent dictator who has been appointed various staff members and other government officials to follow his instructions and make policies on how to accomplish objectives that the dictator deems necessary.

The problem with dictatorships is that there isn't a whole lot of insulation of the govenment from human nature, which is generally agreed to suck. With a large representative government, it's hoped that you suppress the hairless apes and let their intellectualism and ideas run things. With a dictator, it's like giving the monkeys free run of the zoo.

[Sriad]

The less complex the system, the better. Having some kind of randomly chosen legislative body sounds damned ridiculous.

XPViking

Far less redicolous, I think, than the joke we've got now. I can't see any fatal flaws from where I stand, at least. And really, what's so much more complicated about it than what we have going on now? If one were to completely describe the mechanics of election, checks and balances, law procedures, term limits, campaign regulations etc. it would be pretty damn daunting too!

The benifits of a randomly chosen body are many; it will always represent the will of the people (granted, it needs to be fairly large to do this), corporations can't bribe candidates unless they want to bribe -tens of millions of people-... although as I think about it, we should probably keep elected officials at the state level just so that people stay involved in politics and not just rely on the one in a thousand chance that they'll be picked up come election day, and to keep some power close to home.

[Sriad]

My idea of a good government:

It would be a federal-type government. At the lowest level, we'd have a bicameral legislative body. One half would be elected, though they would have to demonstrate basic competence/experience before being placed on the ballot. But other than that, the model would be very similar to the United States Congress.

However, my government and the US government diverge quite radically from here. Where the American government has an elected President who appoints the members of the judicial side of the goverment, mine would take a slightly different tack.

On one side, we have a council of ministers. Say twelve ministers plus one prime-minister. (This ensures that the body can't deadlock, as the there is always somebody who can break a tie.) They're appointed by the Senate and serve lifetime terms, unless a majority of the other ministers, or a supermajority of the Senate votes to remove them. On the other side, we have the President and his or her cabinet. The President is initially elected by the House of Representatives, But, unlike his counterpart, the prime minister, he serves in terms, say about ten or fifteen years. (Four years was great when you expected your presidents to conk out in 67 years, but now, it's a little short.) And at the end of each term, he has to undergo a vote of confidence/no-confidence from the public. If he gets his vote of confidence, he sticks around for ten more years. If not, then the House of Representatives elects a new one.

Is this a good way to do things?

Maybe, but it would be pretty easy to form a presidential dynasty, where one person was in office for say, 60 years because people had -never- had anyone else as president. Even with just one term you'd have a group of new voters who'd had only one president for three fifths of their life.
I do sort of like having longer basic terms... How about having a vote of confidence every three years, where 50% dissatisfied forces a vote, and a mandatory election every twelve?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

My idea of a good government:

It would be a federal-type government. At the lowest level, we'd have a bicameral legislative body. One half would be elected, though they would have to demonstrate basic competence/experience before being placed on the ballot. But other than that, the model would be very similar to the United States Congress.

However, my government and the US government diverge quite radically from here. Where the American government has an elected President who appoints the members of the judicial side of the goverment, mine would take a slightly different tack.

On one side, we have a council of ministers. Say twelve ministers plus one prime-minister. (This ensures that the body can't deadlock, as the there is always somebody who can break a tie.) They're appointed by the Senate and serve lifetime terms, unless a majority of the other ministers, or a supermajority of the Senate votes to remove them. On the other side, we have the President and his or her cabinet. The President is initially elected by the House of Representatives, But, unlike his counterpart, the prime minister, he serves in terms, say about ten or fifteen years. (Four years was great when you expected your presidents to conk out in 67 years, but now, it's a little short.) And at the end of each term, he has to undergo a vote of confidence/no-confidence from the public. If he gets his vote of confidence, he sticks around for ten more years. If not, then the House of Representatives elects a new one.

Is this a good way to do things?

Maybe, but it would be pretty easy to form a presidential dynasty, where one person was in office for say, 60 years because people had -never- had anyone else as president. Even with just one term you'd have a group of new voters who'd had only one president for three fifths of their life.
I do sort of like having longer basic terms... How about having a vote of confidence every three years, where 50% dissatisfied forces a vote, and a mandatory election every twelve?

Ahhh, so instead of giving the President a longer term, one could perhaps keep the terms as long as they are now, except only let him have a much greater set of term limits . . . like, perhaps four to six terms, rather than the two we have now?

[Sriad]

That would probably work okay. Or maybe have unlimited terms, but allow only four in a row, so someone else would need to serve a term every sixteen and then four years later we could get the old guy back if we wanted him.

Edit: begone, accursed triple post! If no mods have anything better to do feel free to delete the extras

Edit x2: zounds, tis a quadruple post! Maybe it should be preserved for posterity.

...Or not.

[Sriad]

That would probably work okay. Or maybe have unlimited terms, but allow only four in a row, so someone else would need to serve a term every sixteen and then four years later we could get the old guy back if we wanted him.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Executive Branch:

Head of State: Two Consuls directly elected by the whole populace for two year terms on a rotating basis, so that each year is a consular election year. The Consuls share all powers as Head of State and as Head of Government, and can veto each other's actions. Limit of one term in office for a Consul. Must be a natural born U.S. citizen over the age of fourty.

Tribunate of the Yeomanry: Ten Tribunes elected by those who own at least twenty acres of land, or its equivlant in wealth, on a year basis. They have the power of the Veto, with a majority vote, over bills passed through the Senate and the House. The Tribunate also appoints certain of the justices to the Supreme Court as according to established process. Limit of one term in office for a Tribune. Must be a natural born U.S. citizen over the age of fourty and from the Yeoman class.

Legislative Branch:

Senate: Two Senators for each State, appointed by the State governments in a process determined by the independent State governments, and serving at the whim of those governments. In conjunction with the House they pass legislation excluding legislation regarding matters of taxation. Senators must be at least thirty, and citizens.

House, or, the People's House: Representation based on districts accorded to population, whereby Representatives are elected for a single two-year term and cannot stand for election to any other federal office again. A process whereby a petition may circulated, and a vote may be held, for their district to recall them, shall be created. Representatives must be at least twenty-five, and citizens.

Judicial Branch:

College of Censors: One Censor elected yearly for a single term (of one year) from each State by popular vote of the whole citizenry thereof, and one censor from each dependency, also by popular vote of the whole citizenry thereof. These shall be matched by one Censor elected yearly for a single term from each State, and each dependency, by the body of the yeomanry, as defined for the Tribunate.

The College of Censors shall have the power to determine the censorship of materials in time of War, to review the use of defensive power by the Consuls outside of declared War, to serve as a court for trials of Tribunes, of Senators, and of Representatives, and shall serve as an appeals court for all cases involving classified material. Members of the College of Censors must be at least thirty years of age and natural born U.S. citizens.

Supreme Court: The Supreme Court consists of nine Justices appointed for life. In a rotation, seats 1, 2, and 3 are selected by one Consul; 4, 5, and 6, by the second Consul, and 7, 8, and the Presiding Justice are appointed by a vote of the Tribunate, with the appointments being filled according to as they appear, without regard to which body or individual has to the duty to fill them.

The Supreme Court acts as the highest review Court in the land, and also hears criminal cases involving members of the College of Censors. One must be a member of an appropriate lower Court and at least fourty years in age to be considered for a Supreme Court appointment.

Function of the Legislative Process:

Bills, being introduced in either the House, or the Senate through a process of committees, would on being agreed to in both in an equal format, and passed by both through simple majorities in said like format, then be presented to the Tribunate.

Here, the Tribunate must vote 6-4 to Veto the proposed legislation. If it fails to do so the legislation proceeds to the Consuls. There, both Consuls must sign the legislation to make it law. If vetoed, it would be returned to the House and the Senate, where an attempt to gather a Supermajority might be made. One Consul cannot refuse to either sign or veto, for a period of longer than fourty days, a process called "tabling".

Should the bill pass through the Tribunate without being vetoed, and be signed by both Consuls, it becomes law. Should it be vetoed by the Tribunate, however, or approved by the Tribunate (by a failure to veto, approval is automatic) and vetoed by one or both of the Consuls, then it must return to the House and the Senate, and garner at least a 60% Supermajority in each.

In the case that it was passed by the Tribunate, and then garners the necessary supermajority, but is vetoed by the Consuls, a certain process occurs - The bill, being double-vetoed, needs an extreme supermajority to pass, or two-thirds of both chambers. In this case a double veto, by both Consuls, does become relevant, and further increases the percentage to 70%.

Constitutional Amendments also require 70% to pass the House and the Senate, and can be vetoed by half of the Tribunate voting against them. Should this not occur, the signature of both Consuls will submit the Constitutional Amendment to the prerequisite number of states - two-thirds of the total - for ratification. Should one of the Consuls veto, a 72% majority is required in both houses to override that veto. This is the same with veto by the Tribunate. A double veto involving the Tribunate and one Consul brings the requirement to 75%, and both Consuls, 80%.

Alternatively, a popular petition can be submitted in each of the States, and if it passes in 70%, the constitutional amendment will pass without the involvement of the Federal Government.

Bills of Federal taxation are handled only by the People's House, where they must pass with a 60% supermajority, and are submitted directly to the Tribunate, which can veto them with only 5 Tribunes against them. A single veto from either the Consuls or the Tribunate will require a two-thirds supermajority in the House to override, and a double veto with a single Consul, 70%. A double veto with both Consuls in the case of a taxation bill is considered to firmly indicate the will of the people and cannot be overriden no matter the majority in the People's House.

Declarations of War are passed by a simple majority in the House and the Senate, but can by vetoed by the action of only five of the Tribunes. They cannot be returned to the House and the Senate for a re-vote; the Tribunate's veto or approval on a Declaration of War is totally decisive. If a Declaration of War passes the Tribunate, the Consuls have the power to wage war until they consider the enemy brought to terms favourable to the Citizenry.

General Notes:

Suffrage: Universal Twenty-one.

Military service: National Service in a Declared War is a government option, with all citizens male or female eligible at government command once War has been declared. The Yeomanry, also, do not merely receive the right to elect the Tribunate and half the College of Censors because of their wealth - All members of the Yeoman class, without exemptions - those unable to serve do not get the right to those extra votes - must serve at least five years military service in peacetime at age twenty-one or later, subject to government whim on callup, and remain in the reserve until age fourty-five. Volunteers, of course, may also serve for various terms in peacetime for pay, and depending on the length of their term, potential Yeoman status at the end of that term of service.

General rights notes: Power of the Individual States is paramount where that of the Federal Government is not expressed. Civil Rights broadly comparable in all respects to those of the modern USA.

Entry for foreigners on a ten-year work visa attainable with demonstration of basic spoken English competency; by the end of that work visa must take citizenship test, including written English competency in addition to re-test on spoken English - both to be administered by natural born citizen - to avoid deportation. Dependents automatically gain entry/citizenship if one member of family succeeds in respective tests. Alternatively prospective citizen may join the Military for a fifteen year service term, after of which they will receive citizenship along with any dependents, upon a standard, honourable, or medical discharge (which would also allow for early discharge). English competency is irrelevant in the case of such prospective citizens.

[Sriad]

That would probably work okay. Or maybe have unlimited terms, but allow only four in a row, so someone else would need to serve a term every sixteen and then four years later we could get the old guy back if we wanted him.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Executive Branch:

Head of State: Two Consuls directly elected by the whole populace for two year terms on a rotating basis, so that each year is a consular election year. The Consuls share all powers as Head of State and as Head of Government, and can veto each other's actions. Limit of one term in office for a Consul. Must be a natural born U.S. citizen over the age of fourty.

Tribunate of the Yeomanry: Ten Tribunes elected by those who own at least twenty acres of land, or its equivlant in wealth, on a year basis. They have the power of the Veto, with a majority vote, over bills passed through the Senate and the House. The Tribunate also appoints certain of the justices to the Supreme Court as according to established process. Limit of one term in office for a Tribune. Must be a natural born U.S. citizen over the age of fourty and from the Yeoman class.

Legislative Branch:

Senate: Two Senators for each State, appointed by the State governments in a process determined by the independent State governments, and serving at the whim of those governments. In conjunction with the House they pass legislation excluding legislation regarding matters of taxation. Senators must be at least thirty, and citizens.

House, or, the People's House: Representation based on districts accorded to population, whereby Representatives are elected for a single two-year term and cannot stand for election to any other federal office again. A process whereby a petition may circulated, and a vote may be held, for their district to recall them, shall be created. Representatives must be at least twenty-five, and citizens.

Judicial Branch:

College of Censors: One Censor elected yearly for a single term (of one year) from each State by popular vote of the whole citizenry thereof, and one censor from each dependency, also by popular vote of the whole citizenry thereof. These shall be matched by one Censor elected yearly for a single term from each State, and each dependency, by the body of the yeomanry, as defined for the Tribunate.

The College of Censors shall have the power to determine the censorship of materials in time of War, to review the use of defensive power by the Consuls outside of declared War, to serve as a court for trials of Tribunes, of Senators, and of Representatives, and shall serve as an appeals court for all cases involving classified material. Members of the College of Censors must be at least thirty years of age and natural born U.S. citizens.

Supreme Court: The Supreme Court consists of nine Justices appointed for life. In a rotation, seats 1, 2, and 3 are selected by one Consul; 4, 5, and 6, by the second Consul, and 7, 8, and the Presiding Justice are appointed by a vote of the Tribunate, with the appointments being filled according to as they appear, without regard to which body or individual has to the duty to fill them.

The Supreme Court acts as the highest review Court in the land, and also hears criminal cases involving members of the College of Censors. One must be a member of an appropriate lower Court and at least fourty years in age to be considered for a Supreme Court appointment.

Function of the Legislative Process:

Bills, being introduced in either the House, or the Senate through a process of committees, would on being agreed to in both in an equal format, and passed by both through simple majorities in said like format, then be presented to the Tribunate.

Here, the Tribunate must vote 6-4 to Veto the proposed legislation. If it fails to do so the legislation proceeds to the Consuls. There, both Consuls must sign the legislation to make it law. If vetoed, it would be returned to the House and the Senate, where an attempt to gather a Supermajority might be made. One Consul cannot refuse to either sign or veto, for a period of longer than fourty days, a process called "tabling".

Should the bill pass through the Tribunate without being vetoed, and be signed by both Consuls, it becomes law. Should it be vetoed by the Tribunate, however, or approved by the Tribunate (by a failure to veto, approval is automatic) and vetoed by one or both of the Consuls, then it must return to the House and the Senate, and garner at least a 60% Supermajority in each.

In the case that it was passed by the Tribunate, and then garners the necessary supermajority, but is vetoed by the Consuls, a certain process occurs - The bill, being double-vetoed, needs an extreme supermajority to pass, or two-thirds of both chambers. In this case a double veto, by both Consuls, does become relevant, and further increases the percentage to 70%.

Constitutional Amendments also require 70% to pass the House and the Senate, and can be vetoed by half of the Tribunate voting against them. Should this not occur, the signature of both Consuls will submit the Constitutional Amendment to the prerequisite number of states - two-thirds of the total - for ratification. Should one of the Consuls veto, a 72% majority is required in both houses to override that veto. This is the same with veto by the Tribunate. A double veto involving the Tribunate and one Consul brings the requirement to 75%, and both Consuls, 80%.

Alternatively, a popular petition can be submitted in each of the States, and if it passes in 70%, the constitutional amendment will pass without the involvement of the Federal Government.

Bills of Federal taxation are handled only by the People's House, where they must pass with a 60% supermajority, and are submitted directly to the Tribunate, which can veto them with only 5 Tribunes against them. A single veto from either the Consuls or the Tribunate will require a two-thirds supermajority in the House to override, and a double veto with a single Consul, 70%. A double veto with both Consuls in the case of a taxation bill is considered to firmly indicate the will of the people and cannot be overriden no matter the majority in the People's House.

Declarations of War are passed by a simple majority in the House and the Senate, but can by vetoed by the action of only five of the Tribunes. They cannot be returned to the House and the Senate for a re-vote; the Tribunate's veto or approval on a Declaration of War is totally decisive. If a Declaration of War passes the Tribunate, the Consuls have the power to wage war until they consider the enemy brought to terms favourable to the Citizenry.

General Notes:

Suffrage: Universal Twenty-one.

Military service: National Service in a Declared War is a government option, with all citizens male or female eligible at government command once War has been declared. The Yeomanry, also, do not merely receive the right to elect the Tribunate and half the College of Censors because of their wealth - All members of the Yeoman class, without exemptions - those unable to serve do not get the right to those extra votes - must serve at least five years military service in peacetime at age twenty-one or later, subject to government whim on callup, and remain in the reserve until age fourty-five. Volunteers, of course, may also serve for various terms in peacetime for pay, and depending on the length of their term, potential Yeoman status at the end of that term of service.

General rights notes: Power of the Individual States is paramount where that of the Federal Government is not expressed. Civil Rights broadly comparable in all respects to those of the modern USA.

Entry for foreigners on a ten-year work visa attainable with demonstration of basic spoken English competency; by the end of that work visa must take citizenship test, including written English competency in addition to re-test on spoken English - both to be administered by natural born citizen - to avoid deportation. Dependents automatically gain entry/citizenship if one member of family succeeds in respective tests. Alternatively prospective citizen may join the Military for a fifteen year service term, after of which they will receive citizenship along with any dependents, upon a standard, honourable, or medical discharge (which would also allow for early discharge). English competency is irrelevant in the case of such prospective citizens.

[Sriad]

That would probably work okay. Or maybe have unlimited terms, but allow only four in a row, so someone else would need to serve a term every sixteen and then four years later we could get the old guy back if we wanted him.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

W00T! A quadruple post interspersed with my double post! I just love the new server!

[Crayz9000]

How about we all switch to Mozilla?

[Sriad]

How about we all switch to Mozilla?

Wouldn't work, I'm on Mozilla right now. But that was a pretty glorious multipost orgy.

[Crayz9000]

Odd, I've never had a problem with Mozilla triple-posting stuff.

[XPViking]

Sriad,

First off, my “less is better” comment was directed at the ideal government system. Secondly, having 3000 citizen legislators paid 120 000 bucks a pop? Slightly less than a congressman (who according to this link make around $150 000). And how will they come to any form of agreement? 50% plus 1 would equal 1501 people agreeing on something. Molasses would pour faster than this group. As well, corporations (through their special interest groups) would be staking out which people to target for persuasion purposes. In fact, it might be somewhat easier since the citizenry body has a limit of 1-3 years so such folk may want to utilize their position to see if they can get a better job. Tens of millions of people don’t have to be bribed.

What is needed is a way to encourage people to be more civic-minded.

http://www.congressproject.org/payperks ... t2002.html

XPViking

[XPViking]

Looks like the Duchess has been reading up on Roman history.

XPViking

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Looks like the Duchess has been reading up on Roman history.

XPViking

Ultimately all western governments are influenced by the Roman Republic - Mine just more than most.

I could replace the directly elected Consuls with a President elected by an Electoral College and maintain the same balance, I think.

In both cases impeachments - of Consuls or a President - are handled through the same process as in the U.S.

The Tribunate is designed to act as a reverse of the Roman Tribunate - A break on the power of the Mob, instead of the wealthy landowners.

[XPViking]

I just think it's funny you would throw in a land qualification for the Tribune of the Yeomanry. Present government systems evolved to get rid of that archaic qualification. I suppose you could say we merely subsitituted one for the other, i.e. money instead of land.

And yes, I realize that European and Western governmental systems stem from Roman times. I was hoping for some cool kind of names for the government such as "Ministry of Rites" or "Office of Propaganda".

XPViking

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I just think it's funny you would throw in a land qualification for the Tribune of the Yeomanry. Present government systems evolved to get rid of that archaic qualification. I suppose you could say we merely subsitituted one for the other, i.e. money instead of land.

And yes, I realize that European and Western governmental systems stem from Roman times. I was hoping for some cool kind of names for the government such as "Ministry of Rites" or "Office of Propaganda".

XPViking

I think the failure to balance the power of the mob with protections for the wealthy inherently leads to system instability. Notice that the Tribunes are not only from the yeomanry - But elected only by them. They exist for a rather specific purpose.

[Spyder]

The absolute ideal system of government would have to completely re-evaluate the way of life its citizens, or at least the majority of its citizens would be the most contented with. It would have to focus less on national identity and more on individualism in an effort to become a self sustaining entity without falling into anarchy.

Completely unfeasible by today's standards, but worth having a look at in my opinion.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The absolute ideal system of government would have to completely re-evaluate the way of life its citizens, or at least the majority of its citizens would be the most contented with. It would have to focus less on national identity and more on individualism in an effort to become a self sustaining entity without falling into anarchy.

Completely unfeasible by today's standards, but worth having a look at in my opinion.

I think the Athenian system of randomly selecting people for office might work, but only for one political house - It would have to be balanced out by a less, uh, extreme democratic, method of selection in another. And would probably not be suited for the Executive branch.

[XPViking]

Duchess,

The power that the 10 Tribunes have is actually quite powerful (ability to veto all bills) , despite being very specific. Can Consuls trump the Tribunes?

XPViking