Game of Thrones Season 4 discussion (book spoilers included)

[SCRawl]

And this is all assuming that Oberyn wasn't planning to quietly leave King's Landing with all of his people within a few hours of the duel with Ser Gregor, which he probably was.

It also provides an insurance policy, a guarantee of retribution, just in case the battle did not go well with the Mountain That Rides. And really, as competent and confident as Oberyn was, he would have to be insane to believe that defeat at the hands of such a foe was impossible.

[Ralin]

And let's not forget, Oberyn has no way of knowing when or if he'll ever have another shot at Tywin. He doesn't have any reason to expect Varys to do the job for him, and if he was conspiring with Varys he could just as easily have said "BTW, put this stuff in the Mountain's milk of the poppy while you're at it."

Plus this is open to interpretation, but I definitely got the impression that Varys intended to sic Tyrion on Tywin. Why bother doing that if he'd already done the job himself?

[Slacker]

So...uhhhh...tonight's episode went rather off the book rails. Thoughts?

[Scrib]

Off the rails how? I thought it was great.

[Guardsman Bass]

I liked it too, although it did diverge quite heavily from the books' storyline. Jon knows that Bran's alive, the Craster's Keep storyline and Team Bran being captured*, and actually seeing the White Walkers turn a baby into one of them (I think). The White Walkers bit was pretty cool, and didn't bother me much even if it was new and unusual because the show's already diverged from the books over how to present and show them from the beginning.** My only real complaint is that it now feels like they have to mostly tread water in King's Landing because they had Joffrey's assassination and Tyrion's arrest happen too early in the season, especially since they'll probably have
Spoiler

The Trial By Combat between Ser Gregor and Oberyn Martell happen in the penultimate episode.

But if I had to pick a favorite scene, it was that bit between Margaery and Olenna Tyrell. The bit about Olenna getting out of a potential marriage to Aerys Targaryen (?) by fucking her sister's fiance was amusing, even if it's actually not that funny when you stop think about how she screwed over her own sister in the process. But that horrified, disturbed look from Margaery in response to Olenna talking about how she had killed Joffrey was amazing - I knew it was coming, but to actually see Margaery come to the realization of how cold-blooded her grandmother really is was great.

* I'm totally calling it right now that Bran possesses Hodor in the future and uses him to kill somebody/help free them.

** Speaking of which, I've never seen a fan or professional drawing of the Others from the books that really captured how they seem to look from the descriptions we get. Apparently even GRRM had trouble describing them precisely when they asked him about it for the comic book.

[Scrib]

This is what I was worried about.

There is pretty much only one threat to the show's faithful following of the books and it was done by the writers after Jaime raped (or appeared to have raped to some) Cersei. I think that this is pretty much the only (or one of) politically untenable acts that can be done by someone like Jaime and they have no way to fix it since they've carried on with painting himas something other than a clear villain- a complex, sometimes likeable character. And I imagine that that trend will continue for most of the season so you can just tell that the feminists will be seething by the finale.

Does Jaime die early or does it die down after the producers stand their ground? I can see both, to be honest but I'd lean towards the latter, partially because it might take so long as to not matter anyway and the writers have done controversial things before. This just seems like something else though.

[Elheru Aran]

Meh. They're just going to have Margaery fuck Tommen on-screen or something later. It seems to be the trend in the series that they're deliberately trying to one-up themselves in whatever atrocity they can pull out of their asses... if it's not Ned getting killed, it's Jaime getting his hand chopped off, Janos Slynt killing a baby, the Red Wedding, Arya killing a person in cold blood, the list goes on. The fact is that the universe as depicted by Martin and the show is a shitty, violent one in which morally reprehensible atrocities happen on a regular basis. As shocking as the rape was, people will move on, perhaps with their view of Jaime changed but they won't give up on the series. Some might. Most won't. It'll go on. The shock-porn isn't the point, and that's not why people watch it. They watch it because they like complicated, harsh, powerful medieval fantasy.

[Scrib]

Margaery isn't going to have to fuck Tommen. The Implication(tm) is quite enough. This is some grooming shit. By the time they get married he'll probably seek her out. Not that anyone cares, even if Margaery is much older than him. The only response will be this

As for the rest: it's not the same. Bad shit happens, but 1- the characters aren't seen the way Jaime is: he's seen as a rising star, getting redemption (don't start on this), no one liked Janos Slynt before or after he killed the baby, the show still treats Jaime as a candidate for redemption (in the eyes of people)

and 2- rape is a real world thing. You can get away with some shit like cutting off a horse's head and killing people but none of those are as charged as sexual assault TV-wise.There's a political and cultural dimension/taboo that cannot be compared to killing characters or kids (objectionable as well but without the same sort of political issues, just scattered whining from parents)

As for people liking grey works: to a point. Everyone is fine with watching Tony Soprano or Dexter ruin the lives of countless people, but they haven't been tested with rape. I think that their tolerance and interest in "complexity" wouldn't stand up to the taboo.

[Pelranius]

So it looks like that whole "Stannis is the new Night's King" nonsense is pretty much DOA, unless Stannis becomes a replacement NK in the middle of the next book, but that would probably look hokey.

[fgalkin]

In case you missed it, here's our first look at Hizdahr zo Loraq, the future Mr. Daenerys Targaryen (he's the taller one on the right)



Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Guardsman Bass]

Seems about right, especially since they got rid of the weird red-and-black hair thing the Ghiscari had in the books. At least he's lucky, since he didn't end up being crucified along with the rest of the Masters of Mereen.

[Guardsman Bass]

Now this is interesting. An early version of the episode synopsis may have let a rather interesting plot-relevant detail slip: Spoiler

At the end of Episode 4 of this season’s Game of Thrones, viewers were treated to one of the most intriguing scenes we’ve encountered in the show so far: A White Walker takes the last of Craster’s babies, and walks him to an icy altar where a crowned White Walker then lifts him up, touches his cheek, and turns the child into one of them, his eyes going from brown to icy blue.

But where things get really interesting is in the (now-changed) HBO synopsis of the episode.

“A White Walker claims the baby and rides to a city of ice,” the synopsis read. “The child is presented at an altar, where the Night’s King greets the infant and lays a finger on its cheek. The baby’s eyes turn White Walker blue.”

The synopsis has been changed to read “where a White Walker greets the infant and lays a finger on its cheek.” The mention of the Night’s King is gone, but not before the text was spread on reddit and across the internet.

I wonder if that ties to anything we haven't seen yet in the books, since they presumably cleared the broad outlines with George R.R. Martin. It might not be, since they've changed the Others a great deal in the translation to the show. And it could just be some idiot writing the guy jumped the gun, or took license with the storyline.

[fgalkin]

Yes, it was mentioned in the other thread. Where it was properly spoilerized.

Because, you know, it's an actual spoiler to the books and everything.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

Yes, it was mentioned in the other thread. Where it was properly spoilerized.

Because, you know, it's an actual spoiler to the books and everything.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Because yeah, it's a huge fucking book spoiler, as in the various book reading forums are going nuts with hundred page long discussion posts already in three days of people debating back and forth.

[Guardsman Bass]

This is the book spoilers thread, and it's not like it's something coming out of Dance with Dragons - the story of the Night's King is in A Storm of Swords. Plus I didn't exactly go into great detail about what the significance of the Night's King is, or even what the story is about, so any book virgins reading this thread aren't going to learn much from my post.

[fgalkin]

This is the book spoilers thread, and it's not like it's something coming out of Dance with Dragons - the story of the Night's King is in A Storm of Swords. Plus I didn't exactly go into great detail about what the significance of the Night's King is, or even what the story is about, so any book virgins reading this thread aren't going to learn much from my post.

So, pray tell me, where in ASOS does it tell that the story is true and that the Night King is leading the Others? Or, for that matter, in ADWD? Who cares about book virgins, WE know his significance.

This is the spoilers FROM the books thread. Not spoilers TO the books. Which is what you just did.

Have a very nice day
-fgalkin

[Guardsman Bass]

We don't know what it means, as I pointed out in my post. It could mean they let slip something significant from the overall series that they discussed with GRRM, it could be something the TV series took to on its own (and god knows they've made plenty of changes to the Others), or it could even just be a fuck-up on the synopsis writer and mean nothing.

But if one of the mods feels like I overstepped, cut it out of my post.

EDIT: Would it be better if I just started an All Spoilers Discussion Thread where nothing is off limits, up to and including the most recent news and Winds of Winter stuff?

[Thanas]

fgalkin and bean are correct, this is a spoiler for future books which I would not have cared to know. So please use spoiler tags in the future.

[Thanas]

As to the poison theory, I am not convinced Oberyn would do something quite that big. It is one thing to be reckless with your own life, another to antagonize the tyrells and Lannisters. Besides, Oberyn always has an insurance policy. For example, his spear is poisoned in case he does not win. What is his insurance policy or fallback if he is unable to poison Tywinn or is caught?

[SCRawl]

As to the poison theory, I am not convinced Oberyn would do something quite that big. It is one thing to be reckless with your own life, another to antagonize the tyrells and Lannisters. Besides, Oberyn always has an insurance policy. For example, his spear is poisoned in case he does not win. What is his insurance policy or fallback if he is unable to poison Tywinn or is caught?

His fallback position for failing to deliver the poison? Live another day, and try again later.

What would he have done if caught? Oberyn seems competent enough to reduce the odds of that happening to approximately zero, but any attempt to be made on the Hand of the King carries some risk. If he really wanted Tywin dead, the only thing for it was to make an attempt; either that or wait for Father Time, and that's really not revenge. Also, the choice of poison (according to the theory) was one that might never have beeen detected, and it would have probably been fatal only after he had planned to have been long gone.

[Thanas]

What would he have done if caught? Oberyn seems competent enough to reduce the odds of that happening to approximately zero, but any attempt to be made on the Hand of the King carries some risk.

This is the guy who slathered his spear with poison when fighting in a judicial duel.

[SCRawl]

What would he have done if caught? Oberyn seems competent enough to reduce the odds of that happening to approximately zero, but any attempt to be made on the Hand of the King carries some risk.

This is the guy who slathered his spear with poison when fighting in a judicial duel.

Am I mistaken, or was the poison never discovered? Poison was strongly inferred (based on the Mountain's symptoms post-duel) but I recall no evidence of the discovery of any foreign agents on his weapon either before or after Oberyn's death.

[Crown]

Am I mistaken, or was the poison never discovered? Poison was strongly inferred (based on the Mountain's symptoms post-duel) but I recall no evidence of the discovery of any foreign agents on his weapon either before or after Oberyn's death.

You're right; but this is a Medival Fantasy society, they don't exactly have a CSI team to investigate for forensic evidence of foul play or anything.

[Elheru Aran]

Am I mistaken, or was the poison never discovered? Poison was strongly inferred (based on the Mountain's symptoms post-duel) but I recall no evidence of the discovery of any foreign agents on his weapon either before or after Oberyn's death.

You're right; but this is a Medival Fantasy society, they don't exactly have a CSI team to investigate for forensic evidence of foul play or anything.

Granted, certainly-- but this is a society that's existed for several thousand years at least, during which the use of poison has been a valuable tool in arranging affairs one way or another. As such they have become fairly expert in its use and effects, to the point where it's one of the links in the maesters' chains.

I think they're smart enough to figure out something like a weapon being poisoned. Take the spear and prick, say, a sheep or a pig. Or if you don't want to use the tip, use the edge-- good spears should always be honed all the way around, not just have a sharp point. If said animal dies? Yep, poison.

And before the spear was used? Well I doubt Oberyn Martell is dumb enough to let anybody get a good look at his weapons after he puts the poison on them. After, regardless of poison, the Lannisters need Dorne on their side, especially with Myrcella being stuck there. They aren't going to make a fuss about it.

[SCRawl]

Am I mistaken, or was the poison never discovered? Poison was strongly inferred (based on the Mountain's symptoms post-duel) but I recall no evidence of the discovery of any foreign agents on his weapon either before or after Oberyn's death.

You're right; but this is a Medival Fantasy society, they don't exactly have a CSI team to investigate for forensic evidence of foul play or anything.

Let's look at the possibilities here:

1. Oberyn wins the duel. The Mountain dies of an allergic reaction to spears in the throat and poison isn't even mentioned.
2. Oberyn loses the duel. He's no longer in the position to care about what anyone thinks about his willingness to poison his opponent.

So there's no downside to using poison for Oberyn, and his use of it doesn't indicate that he's particularly careless.