Game of Thrones Season 4 discussion (book spoilers included)

[Crazedwraith]

What exactly do you mean by that? I think people will agree Selmy, Jaime, The Hound these are probably more skilled swordsman than The Mountain but as we see in the duel, I find it had to believe any of them have much better odds in single combat with the Mountain that Oberyn did. The Mountain's advantages of great strength and reach are not easy to overcome.

edit: the only source I think that really claims say Jaime could do it is his own internal monologue and that's hardly authoritative, given Jaime's ego.

edit2: And as jouster, the mountain got further than Barristan or Jaime in the hand's tourney.

[Scrib]

It's claimed that people like Barristan and Jaime are the best in the realm, but that's a bit iffy, like those "who would win" match-ups online. Barristan might be able to. Jaime...maybe? We know that Jaime was supposedly a great fighter before and he killed some people to prove it but they were redshirts, and he was never again in a good enough position for us to be sure. It's fanon (dubiously canon) and perhaps would be fanon to the people of Westeros, can't actually prove it I think.

[SCRawl]

Now this is another interesting point. Of all the men currently in Westeros, could any be relied upon to be able to handle the Mountain one on one? They all suffer from the same deficit: one mistake and you're bisected at the waist. The Mountain isn't particularly nimble, but he's no dunce with the blade, and he only needs to connect once to effectively end the fight. The quicker, more skilled fighters (such as Ser Loras, or Ser Barristan, or Syrio Forel, or Ser Jaime before his nickname became "Lefty") can just dance away from the Mountain and strike, but all it would take is one stumble and the fight would be over. Oberyn knew this too, and fought accordingly, but I'm sure his solution to that problem was "so don't stumble".

As for risking his family over justice, I'm not so sure that this was a serious risk. I'm pretty sure the Martells were happy to stay in Dorne, and Dorne would be pretty hard to conquer. It was the last time anyone tried.

[Scrib]

What makes people think that Loras is that skilled anyway?Dude one a joust with a cheat. Fuck that guy.

As for the Mountain: that's an inbuilt disadvantage. The only question is who can actually be reasonably expected to carry out the plan while preventing the Mountain from pulling a (deadly) surprise. From what we've seen? Maybe Barristan but he's getting old for all that jumping about.

[Crazedwraith]

What makes people think that Loras is that skilled anyway?Dude one a joust with a cheat. Fuck that guy.

Plus the legit win against Jaime in the previous tourney. (I was going to say in the Hand's tourney but that was the Hound) And that get got the semi-final in the hands tourney. Plus being placed similar highly in the melee Tourney Cat witnesses.

Plus cutting through the rest of Renly's kingsguard in a greif stricken rage, coming through the end of the Battle Of Blackwater okay and storming Dragonstone. (well that one's iffy)

Loras does have some chops, though its mostly off panel.

As for the Mountain: that's an inbuilt disadvantage. The only question is who can actually be reasonably expected to carry out the plan while preventing the Mountain from pulling a (deadly) surprise. From what we've seen? Maybe Barristan but he's getting old for all that jumping about.

Barristan seemed pretty hard pressed by one youngish, fighterpit fighter at the end of Dance. Barristan in his prime maybe.

Jaime maybe. He certainly thinks he could, but he has an ego problem.

Howland Reed for sure. He killed Arthur Dayne after all.

[Scrib]

He cut down a bunch of innocents who weren't expecting it appointed by a man that was often frivolous and political. Bloros Blount is a Kingsguard, doesn't say as much as it once did.

As for surviving the assault: didn't they hit Stannis' men from the back? Not that surviving means that he's that great.

Will have to look up the Jaime thing to make sure that it was actual melee though. If so he rises in my estimation.

The problem is that we seem to essentially have the equivalent of Westeros' message boards' opinions on this. Everyone knows that Loras/Jaime/Barristan are the best fighters in Westeros, except when it comes time to put something concrete down. Then it all turns into a kind of dense smoke.

[Crazedwraith]

Those are all fair points. Especially the last one.

Pretty certain it was a joust he beat Jaime in. It's a pretty important plot point in A Game Of Thrones, since its the reason the Valyrian steel knife is supposed to have changed hands. The Melee he fought in was against all Renly's knights, so it depends on your impression of their competences. And he was beaten when Brienne just tackled him off his horse.

Given the deeds of the heroes, Sansa sees rewarded afterwards, the lower ranked ones like Lother Brune I mean, the one who were rewarded for actually doing shit. It seemed like there still significant fighting done after Tywin joined the battle.

You're right that there's nothing there that proves Loras is the bestest evar or anything. But he's certainly not actually incompetent either.

[FTeik]

Concerning the "Oberyn poisons Tywin"-question: I find that highly unlikely, too, for the following reasons:

1) Oberyn's need for revenge won't be satisfied with just Tywin's death, he would want him to suffer (loss of his family, influence and legacy), before he kills him

and

2) his ego won't allow him to just poison Tywin and slip away. Oberyn is out to avenge the crime done to his sister and her children (consider the show he turned his fight against Gregor into to get a confession) and he wants the world to know, that it was him, who made the Martells "pay their debt".

[Elheru Aran]

Granted, certainly-- but this is a society that's existed for several thousand years at least, during which the use of poison has been a valuable tool in arranging affairs one way or another. As such they have become fairly expert in its use and effects, to the point where it's one of the links in the maesters' chains. [snip]

Nitpick: There is no link specifically for the study of poisons; it is included in the silver link for the study of medicine in general (AFFC, Prologue).

Fair do's, my bad. I just remember one of the maesters at some point going through their links and I was fairly sure that one of them had been poison. Oh well, thanks for the check.

[SCRawl]

Concerning the "Oberyn poisons Tywin"-question: I find that highly unlikely, too, for the following reasons:

1) Oberyn's need for revenge won't be satisfied with just Tywin's death, he would want him to suffer (loss of his family, influence and legacy), before he kills him

and

2) his ego won't allow him to just poison Tywin and slip away. Oberyn is out to avenge the crime done to his sister and her children (consider the show he turned his fight against Gregor into to get a confession) and he wants the world to know, that it was him, who made the Martells "pay their debt".

In an ideal world (from Oberyn's perspective) yes, he would rather confront Tywin openly and extract a confession, then kill him with a thousand cuts. But his world is not ideal, and that is not within his power. Causing Tywin's death by a miserable, slow-acting poison is something he could accomplish and live to tell about, and is still preferable to waiting for Father Time.

[Ralin]

I think arguing about who is the "best" is a little pointless, because people like uncrippled Jaime and Ser Barristan and Brienne are most likely close enough that a fight could easily go either way.

I also think that while those people are no doubt more skilled than Ser Gregor he's still skilled enough that his size and strength give him a facility for killing people that's still in their ballpark, and not just when he's fighting redshirts.

Also I'm pretty sure Jaime called Ser Loras a younger version of himself at one point with all that entails.

2) his ego won't allow him to just poison Tywin and slip away. Oberyn is out to avenge the crime done to his sister and her children (consider the show he turned his fight against Gregor into to get a confession) and he wants the world to know, that it was him, who made the Martells "pay their debt".

Well, as others have noted killing Tywin is a different kettle of fish from killing Ser Gregor. It was not impossible for Oberyn to publicly kill Ser Gregor in front of the High Septon and everyone and Oberyn was arrogant/confident enough to think he could pull that off. He was also smart enough to know that he was never going to be able to do that with Tywin and that the best he could hope for would be to poison him, bug out before anyone realized it and commence bragging about it once he was safely back in Dorne. Assuming everyone didn’t put the pieces together on their own, which they probably would have if they hadn’t been distracted by the crossbow bolt.

[Thanas]

Which meant that he bragged to all the houses that he abused guest right, which would be a crime so vile his family would instantly lose power and be crushed. Seriously, does nobody realize that?

As to the topic of swordsmen, I see no reason to doubt Selmy, who always was as objective as anybody with regards to skill. Jousting is not the same as fighting in a duel and the Mountain's strength and size advantage does not mean much if Selmy and others like him employ the correct technique.

[Ralin]

Which meant that he bragged to all the houses that he abused guest right, which would be a crime so vile his family would instantly lose power and be crushed. Seriously, does nobody realize that?

Well, damn.

Hadn't thought of that.

[Thanas]

Yeah, sorry. Could have expressed it better. That was what I was aiming at with the "doom his family" comments.

[SCRawl]

Which meant that he bragged to all the houses that he abused guest right, which would be a crime so vile his family would instantly lose power and be crushed. Seriously, does nobody realize that?

How does that concept work? Obviously the Tyrells violated it, since they poisoned Joffrey at the wedding (where they had been offered food and drink), unless the event requires walls and a roof, in which case they're in the clear. I've also heard that the custom prohibits "shedding blood", but I believe that that's just the way it's sometimes worded, intended to mean that neither host nor guest are to harm each other. But aside from that, thinking more of Oberyn's obligations and expectations as a guest, would this privilege extend for Oberyn's entire visit, or just the duration of an event?

Here's a scenario:

1. As Hand of the King, Tywin declares a feast to be held on the following Saturday.
2. Guests (including Oberyn, who happens to be in town) show up on Saturday, eat, drink, etc.
3. Guests leave early Sunday morning.
4. Sunday afternoon rolls around, and Oberyn stops by the Red Keep to chat with Tywin, at which point he considers poisoning some wine which Tywin was likely to drink. (Tywin's not so dumb, I know, as to drink with a known poisoner, but let's just accept it.) Oberyn does not partake of any food or drink during this visit, complaining of excesses the previous evening.

In this scenario, what are Oberyn's obligations at step #4? Is he bound to behave for the duration of his stay in the city, or just for the duration of the event?

[Crazedwraith]

I think if Oberyn admits he poisoned Tywin, the Lannisters are going to go vengeance crazy, regardless of whether he was technically violating guest rite or not.

If Oberyn did poison Tywin it would have to in a way that mimicked a natural death, even to a Grand Maester and he wouldn't be able to admit it to anyone. Him knowing it himself would have to be enough for him.

I don't myself see much problems with the theory of either Varys or Oberyn having poisoned him but it seems rather superfluous to the needs of the story. And I can't think why/how it would come out, in Winds. If Varys had done it, he might well have told Kevan while he was dying while he expositing on everything else.

[Thanas]

Which meant that he bragged to all the houses that he abused guest right, which would be a crime so vile his family would instantly lose power and be crushed. Seriously, does nobody realize that?

How does that concept work? Obviously the Tyrells violated it, since they poisoned Joffrey at the wedding (where they had been offered food and drink), unless the event requires walls and a roof, in which case they're in the clear. I've also heard that the custom prohibits "shedding blood", but I believe that that's just the way it's sometimes worded, intended to mean that neither host nor guest are to harm each other. But aside from that, thinking more of Oberyn's obligations and expectations as a guest, would this privilege extend for Oberyn's entire visit, or just the duration of an event?

Entire visit. It is that encompassing that even betraying somebody who betrayed you before is not condoned.

Which is why the Tyrell thing was beyond risky.

[SCRawl]

Which is why the Tyrell thing was beyond risky.

They either made the calculation that marriage to Joffrey was riskier, or it was an emotional decision, which I find doubtful. Grandma Tyrell does not strike me as the latter sort.

So, yes, certainly Oberyn could not expect to carry out his poisoning and then brag about it. He would have to do the braver thing, as the poem goes:

I HAVE done one braver thing
Than all the Worthies did ;
And yet a braver thence doth spring,
Which is, to keep that hid.

To tell the truth I never considered Guest Right in my calculations. (They're not really calculations, of course, but I can't think of a better word.) I don't know if Oberyn was the sort to violate that custom even if he felt he could get away with it. My gut tells me that he is, especially after the Lannisters and Freys engineered the Red Wedding, but I can't say it with any certainty.

[Thanas]

I think he has too much honour for that. For example, if he did not care about it, why use such a convoluted way to go up against the mountain? Better to poison him in the night if he did not care for glory or honour.

[Imperial Overlord]

Let's not forget that Oberyn wasn't going on a suicide run. He used poison to guarantee that Gregore would die, but it wasn't going to ensure that Oberyn lived. For that he needed to do the hard work of winning the fight and for most of the fight he does exactly that. He slips up and gets cocky at the end, but that's after turning The Mountain into mincemeat.

[Steel]

For some reason people have forgotten this thread exists and are posting book things in the TV thread...

Anyhow, it looks like my fears about changing the Shae plotline are not going to come to fruition...

[Mr Bean]

For some reason people have forgotten this thread exists and are posting book things in the TV thread...

Anyhow, it looks like my fears about changing the Shae plotline are not going to come to fruition...

Look at the Season1, Season 2 and Season 3 threads. We use the book thread for like the first two episodes then invade the show thread because all the interesting discussion is happening over here.

[Spekio]

Okay.

Vary's motivation discussion. Thoughts on it?

[Thanas]

He wants to sow chaos, no better way than to make the ruling dynasty look like a bunch of murdering assholes. Even better if they kill Tyrion, who many people remember as the real hero of the blackwater.

[Crazedwraith]

He wants to sow chaos, no better way than to make the ruling dynasty look like a bunch of murdering assholes. Even better if they kill Tyrion, who many people remember as the real hero of the blackwater.

By Many you mean... Ser Garlan and Ser Balon Swann? I can't remember anyone else crediting Tyrion with anyone.

Varys is a Targaryen loyalist apparently. Though it depends how genuine you think the 'Aegon' in Dance of Dragons. My thoughts are not very since him being real would retroactively make Dany's chapters even more pointless.