47 minutes of pain

[General Zod]

There is a part of me that is baffled that the US continued to use gas chambers for so long after all the details of the Holocaust became known. I mean, the US government executes people in a depressingly similar way to how Nazi Germany exterminated Jews (and others).

If gas chambers had stopped being used by the fifties I could understand, but 50 years? That just doesn't make sense.

Just so we're clear I'm for the death penalty in certain circumstances, but not like that. It's just wrong on a visceral level.

Might as well argue it's bad to eat meat because Hitler liked a nice steak. Honestly there's plenty of reasons to argue against the gas chambers without invoking Godwin.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I just find it weird. I mean, if you say "death by gas chamber" to just about anyone, the first thing to spring to mind is "Auschwitz" or something similar. It's troubling that while most people look at the gas chambers and think "that's horrible" some officials in America thought "good idea."

And Scrib, I meant it's wrong on a visceral level in general, not in relation to Nazi Germany.

Broomstick: Yeah I suppose it was efficient, but I since execution is supposed to be a rare event for the worst of the worst, efficiency should not be a major concern.

[General Zod]

I just find it weird. I mean, if you say "death by gas chamber" to just about anyone, the first thing to spring to mind is "Auschwitz" or something similar. It's troubling that while most people look at the gas chambers and think "that's horrible" some officials in America thought "good idea."

And Scrib, I meant it's wrong on a visceral level in general, not in relation to Nazi Germany.

Broomstick: Yeah I suppose it was efficient, but I since execution is supposed to be a rare event for the worst of the worst, efficiency should not be a major concern.

Why should executions be clean and sanitary? Frankly they should create a visceral reaction, or you're doing it wrong.

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. There's just something about gas chambers that makes my skin crawl.

[Mr. Coffee]

True. There's just something about gas chambers that makes my skin crawl.

To be honest, there's something about the entire process of capital punishment that makes my skin crawl. It usually has nothing to do with the method of execution, but the manner and carelessness with which it's applied. If a gas chamber set up makes it less painless to the condemned, I see no problem with it, I just want to make sure that the legal procedures for applying the sentence are legit. But if that sentence is given then I want to make sure that the method of execution is the most painless and efficient method medically possible. Fuck the spectators, regardless of if they're the families of victims wanting "closure" or ghoulish parasite journalists wanting a good article, fuck them both and all points between. The State has a duty to remain completely impartial in carrying out the sentence and should do so in the most humane way available.

[bilateralrope]

It actually is the theatricality aspect. When gas chambers were still in regular use, they used hydrogen cyanide gas, administered through a complicated process involving dropping potassium cyanide into a vessel filled with sulfuric acid that was placed there by way of a tube. The gas is visible, and spectators (victims family etc) can see the death through a viewing port.

How visible was the gas ?
Because wikipedia says that hydrogen cyanide is colorless. Which makes me think that it wouldn't look much different to liquid nitrogen evaporating. Add in a heart monitor that the spectators can watch and that should be enough theatrics for everyone except the people who want to see suffering.

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. There's just something about gas chambers that makes my skin crawl.

To be honest, there's something about the entire process of capital punishment that makes my skin crawl. It usually has nothing to do with the method of execution, but the manner and carelessness with which it's applied. If a gas chamber set up makes it less painless to the condemned, I see no problem with it, I just want to make sure that the legal procedures for applying the sentence are legit. But if that sentence is given then I want to make sure that the method of execution is the most painless and efficient method medically possible. Fuck the spectators, regardless of if they're the families of victims wanting "closure" or ghoulish parasite journalists wanting a good article, fuck them both and all points between. The State has a duty to remain completely impartial in carrying out the sentence and should do so in the most humane way available.

I completely agree.

EDIT: That being said, I still don't like the idea of using gas chambers for capital punishment. Between the connection tot he Holocaust and the connection to euthanizing sick animals (and the associated "we're killing them like vermin" angle) I refuse to believe it's the best possible method we can use.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It actually is the theatricality aspect. When gas chambers were still in regular use, they used hydrogen cyanide gas, administered through a complicated process involving dropping potassium cyanide into a vessel filled with sulfuric acid that was placed there by way of a tube. The gas is visible, and spectators (victims family etc) can see the death through a viewing port.

How visible was the gas ?
Because wikipedia says that hydrogen cyanide is colorless. Which makes me think that it wouldn't look much different to liquid nitrogen evaporating. Add in a heart monitor that the spectators can watch and that should be enough theatrics for everyone except the people who want to see suffering.

Think "steam". It boils just above room temp, and it will be visible until it diffuses.

[bilateralrope]

That's what I thought. It does sound like displacing the oxygen with nitrogen would provide sufficient theatrics.

If the comparisons to holocaust gas chambers makes people uneasy, that's a good thing. An execution is not something that anyone should take lightly.

The only possible problem is if there is nobody willing to supply liquid nitrogen for executions. But I know nothing about how its distributed.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That's what I thought. It does sound like displacing the oxygen with nitrogen would provide sufficient theatrics.

If the comparisons to holocaust gas chambers makes people uneasy, that's a good thing. An execution is not something that anyone should take lightly.

The only possible problem is if there is nobody willing to supply liquid nitrogen for executions. But I know nothing about how its distributed.

Chemical supply companies supply pressurized nitrogen canisters by the truckload, it is neither a controlled substance, or is used regulated by anything but OSHA and maybe local ordinance, really. OSHA, because if you dont secure them properly, they can topple over and injure someone, and if the nozzle is knocked off...well... kinetic missile.

[Darth Nostril]

In the UK some bars use it to create 'smoke' in expensive cocktails, it's available pretty much everywhere.

[Mr. Coffee]

That's what I thought. It does sound like displacing the oxygen with nitrogen would provide sufficient theatrics.

If the comparisons to holocaust gas chambers makes people uneasy, that's a good thing. An execution is not something that anyone should take lightly.

The only possible problem is if there is nobody willing to supply liquid nitrogen for executions. But I know nothing about how its distributed.

Chemical supply companies supply pressurized nitrogen canisters by the truckload, it is neither a controlled substance, or is used regulated by anything but OSHA and maybe local ordinance, really. OSHA, because if you dont secure them properly, they can topple over and injure someone, and if the nozzle is knocked off...well... kinetic missile.

There are portable system that can make O2 from air that you can run off a car's lighter plug. Not sure, but I think you could do the same with nitrogen, and do the deed pretty much where ever the fuck you want. Condemned is just walking about all "derp derp I hope my appeal is ok derp derp" and falls over dead without even knowing it.

[Mr. Coffee]

the connection to euthanizing sick animals (and the associated "we're killing them like vermin" angle)

Do you feel the same about actual sick animals? I mean the ones that seriously cannot be rehabilitated into "pets". I honestly do not see the difference between a person that presents a continous threat to society and an animal that presents the same. In both cases, you put them down as humanely and painlessly as possible. Fuck the historical bullshit, humane and painless is what matters. Otherwise don't bother with capital punishment at all.

I refuse to believe it's the best possible method we can use.

Than you're either a fool or your so tied to shit that happened long before you were born as to be the same as a fool. If the State is going to take someones life as a punishment for wrong doing then the State has a duty to carry it out impartially as can be and that means doing it in the most humane method possible. Fuck the spectators and fuck your historical qualms, either do it right or just don't do it.

[Broomstick]

I think part of the discomfort with the Nazi Shower Rooms of Death is because those "showers" weren't painless. The rooms were that killing was done have gouges dug into the walls and ceilings by the bare fingers of terrified, dying people. It wasn't quick, it wasn't painless, and it sure as hell wasn't humane.

So, there's some concern that maybe poison gas really isn't the best way to achieve a painless and humane execution.

[montypython]

I think part of the discomfort with the Nazi Shower Rooms of Death is because those "showers" weren't painless. The rooms were that killing was done have gouges dug into the walls and ceilings by the bare fingers of terrified, dying people. It wasn't quick, it wasn't painless, and it sure as hell wasn't humane.

So, there's some concern that maybe poison gas really isn't the best way to achieve a painless and humane execution.

Using something like Carbon monoxide would be fine, they'd fall unconscious before succumbing fairly quickly.

[loomer]

I think part of the discomfort with the Nazi Shower Rooms of Death is because those "showers" weren't painless. The rooms were that killing was done have gouges dug into the walls and ceilings by the bare fingers of terrified, dying people. It wasn't quick, it wasn't painless, and it sure as hell wasn't humane.

So, there's some concern that maybe poison gas really isn't the best way to achieve a painless and humane execution.

Using something like Carbon monoxide would be fine, they'd fall unconscious before succumbing fairly quickly.

You ever seen anyone die from carbon monoxide poisoning, or even read about it? It ain't a nice way to go unless you're using very, very high concentrations, and it's a lot more dangerous to handle than nitrogen, helium or other relatively inert gasses.

[Simon_Jester]

There are portable system that can make O2 from air that you can run off a car's lighter plug. Not sure, but I think you could do the same with nitrogen, and do the deed pretty much where ever the fuck you want. Condemned is just walking about all "derp derp I hope my appeal is ok derp derp" and falls over dead without even knowing it.

I think there's a 'dignity of the condemned' argument against taking prisoners on death row and executing them without telling them they're going to be executed that day.

[Eternal_Freedom]

the connection to euthanizing sick animals (and the associated "we're killing them like vermin" angle)

Do you feel the same about actual sick animals? I mean the ones that seriously cannot be rehabilitated into "pets". I honestly do not see the difference between a person that presents a continous threat to society and an animal that presents the same. In both cases, you put them down as humanely and painlessly as possible. Fuck the historical bullshit, humane and painless is what matters. Otherwise don't bother with capital punishment at all.

Once again, I agree with you.

I refuse to believe it's the best possible method we can use.

Than you're either a fool or your so tied to shit that happened long before you were born as to be the same as a fool. If the State is going to take someones life as a punishment for wrong doing then the State has a duty to carry it out impartially as can be and that means doing it in the most humane method possible. Fuck the spectators and fuck your historical qualms, either do it right or just don't do it.

Look, I agree with you. I'm just saying that I'd take a lot of convincing that a gas chamber of some form is the best bet. Now, if there really isn't a better way then so be it.

And yeah, my hangups are about the holocaust connection, which as Broomstick pointed out was neither quick nor clean nor painless. If we have better gasses that do the job, ok.

[General Zod]

The best method we have is the guillotine, but people are too hypocritical to bring it back. Want to make sure they don't feel anything? Pump them full of anesthetics before you drop the blade and it's over. The problem is people want to kill prisoners without having to get their hands dirty and frankly it shouldn't work that way.

[Spoonist]

If your method of choice is less reliable and less humane than something invented in the late medieval era then you are clearly doing something wrong.

arghh *ninja by Zod*

[Simon_Jester]

To be fair, the "pump them full of anesthetics" step was not invented in the medieval era.

The real problem is that any form of execution which revolves around a chemical poison (and anesthetics are poisons, just poisons that can knock you out without killing you) has to have the dosage and circumstances precisely metered in order to work. Rendering a human being unconscious is not a very exact science. And there are very, very few ways that a conscious human being can die without experiencing pain and distress.

Massive physical trauma on an unconscious person would certainly be simple, and relatively sure to cause either no pain or brief pain.

[General Zod]

I'd have no problem foregoing anesthetics altogether if we're going to go through with executing someone at all, as long as quick methods like the guillotine were used. I just think it would be nice if people admitted they didn't want to get their hands dirty in the process of executing dangerous criminals.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The best method we have is the guillotine, but people are too hypocritical to bring it back. Want to make sure they don't feel anything? Pump them full of anesthetics before you drop the blade and it's over. The problem is people want to kill prisoners without having to get their hands dirty and frankly it shouldn't work that way.

\

Nooo. The best method we have is simple hypoxia. Let us compare.

1. In beheading, you know you are going to be beheaded. There is no way to hide a guillotine. With hypoxia, if you do it right, the condemned need never know they are dying. If you design your Death Row cells properly, or have what they think is a holding cell or transition area prior to the gas chamber, they need not know that they are actually in a chamber that is being filled with N2, and the only thing they will experience is euphoria.

2. Ever been in a sleeper hold? How long are you conscious in a sleeper hold until you go unconscious from lack of blood flow to the brain? Around 10 seconds, that is how long. That is how long the head remains conscious after it is severed. I will just let that sink in. No such problem with Nitrogen asphyxiation.

3. Beheading creates a fucking mess. This is important, because some poor fucker has to clean that shit, and PTSD is not something prison janitors sign up for. Nitrogen asphyxiation is about as clean as a death can get. Live person goes in. Intact body comes out, and they dont even piss themselves with fear if you do it right.

[General Zod]

How much of a risk of failure does hypoxia have? I understand it's foolproof if you do it right, but that assumes everything goes 100% and you've got trained technicians. With a guillotine there's practically zero chance of failure and almost any moron could operate one. As far as cleanup, well, it's no worse than the average CSI tech sees, right? Just change the design to contain the blood spray and you're good to go.

[Grumman]

1. In beheading, you know you are going to be beheaded. There is no way to hide a guillotine. With hypoxia, if you do it right, the condemned need never know they are dying. If you design your Death Row cells properly, or have what they think is a holding cell or transition area prior to the gas chamber, they need not know that they are actually in a chamber that is being filled with N2, and the only thing they will experience is euphoria.

The flip side of that is that you know when you're not going to be beheaded. I don't think it's a good thing for the justice system to be covertly executing prisoners. If nothing else, it's going to make some of your prisoners freak out when they think they're in one of those killing chambers, even if they're not.