"Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

[Steve]

So.....

*smooths back hair from wild ride*

Before I say anything else....
Spoiler

HARRY WAS PREGNANT MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Murphy's reaction to that was classic hilarity too!


Okay, I got that out of the way.

The book was full of what makes Dresden Files work. A host of "OH SHIT" moments combined with "HOLY SHIT" and various other things. The completely disjointed status quo following the earthquake that was "Changes" is just becoming settled down now.

Nicodemus getting played like a sucker by Mab, Marcone, and Hades was an excellent twist.

Michael getting back in the game, and the way he did it, was awesome in several ways, including how it shows Uriel's character in the method that it was done in. Michael Carpenter remains one of my favorite characters in this entire saga.

Waldo, while clumsy at points, became utterly badass at the end, and appropriately so. "Mister, where I come from, there is no try" indeed.

And on a final note for the moment: Maggie is adorable, and having Harry finally get to talk to her was... heart-warming to the max.

[Ralin]

Spoiler

"Butters," rumbled Skaldi Hair Ball. If he really had broken fingers, it didn't look like they were bothering him much. "When are you going to get in this ring and train like a man?"
"About five minutes after I get a functional lightsaber," Butters replied easily, much to Hair Ball's amusement.

And Maggie likes My Little Pony. Sweet.

Anyone else listening to the audiobook and thinking that Marsters sounds different and not as on his game as he did in Cold Days and Changes?

[Steve]

She is the target demographic...

[NeoGoomba]

I'm only a few dozen pages in, and I have one giant complaint with Harry's logc (go figure) already.

Namely: Spoiler

If he can bring in a partner, he chooses Murphy for some BS 'mortal awareness' reason instead of someone like, you know, fucking Kincaid.

[Ralin]

She is the target demographic...

See, I might write it off as a coincidence, but I know for a fact that Butcher learned about the existence of this while writing Skin Game: http://www.fimfiction.net/story/9904/my ... -denarians

I'm only a few dozen pages in, and I have one giant complaint with Harry's logc (go figure) already.

Namely: Spoiler

If he can bring in a partner, he chooses Murphy for some BS 'mortal awareness' reason instead of someone like, you know, fucking Kincaid.

Spoiler

Harry knows and trusts Murphy. He already used his favor with Kincaid, whom he had no guarantee would be available anyway, and he doesn't exactly have a bunch of other mercenaries in his rolodex. And firepower is never something Harry is short of, so calling in Thomas or whoever would have been redundant. I'd say his logic was spot on.

Why are we doing spoiler tags in the spoiler thread?

[NeoGoomba]

Harry knows and trusts Murphy. He already used his favor with Kincaid, whom he had no guarantee would be available anyway, and he doesn't exactly have a bunch of other mercenaries in his rolodex. And firepower is never something Harry is short of, so calling in Thomas or whoever would have been redundant. I'd say his logic was spot on.

He also knows and trusts Kincaid, especially since Kincaid doesn't break a contract. Since Mab agreed to Harry's request, and I have no doubt that paying out something as trivial to her as money would be a non-issue. And firepower, when dealing with the Denarians, is something you can never have enough of, and Kincaid has it to spare. Dude already has a number of confirmed kills against the coin-holders anyways. Plus Murphy, for all her skills, is a squshy baseline human. Kincaid can withstand quite a bit of punishment if things go sideways. I'll give you the availability angle though. It's not like the Hellhound just stays put.

That said...I think I just thought of a better answer my own question. I doubt Kincaid would take any contract involving aiding Nicodemus in any way after the shit he pulled against Ivy.

Why are we doing spoiler tags in the spoiler thread?

Hah, sorry. Force of habit.

[Steve]

At the last moment I was worried people might stumble into the thread, so I spoilered my stuff. I don't want to spoil this book for anyone.

[White Haven]

Three days. Kincaid isn't exactly a Chicago local, and Harry doesn't have the luxury of waiting for him to show up even if he would. Additionally, it ties into the mind-game around Goodman Gray; hiring Kincaid would put the idea of Harry hiring mercenaries into Nicky's head, and that's the absolute last thing Harry wants to do.

[NeoGoomba]

I forget if it has been mentioned, but where do Kincaid and Ivy set up shop? Or do they kind of keep moving around to keep her safe?

[Steve]

IIRC Atlanta, although moving around may have started after "Small Favor".

[Ralin]

And firepower, when dealing with the Denarians, is something you can never have enough of, and Kincaid has it to spare. Dude already has a number of confirmed kills against the coin-holders anyways. Plus Murphy, for all her skills, is a squshy baseline human. Kincaid can withstand quite a bit of punishment if things go sideways.

This is Nicodemus we're talking about. Kincaid is great at killing things, even at killing Denarians, but he's not so good at it that he can reliably be expected to take on Nicky if things go to hell. Sanya and Michael are basically the only people Dresden knows who could. One of them was Busy, the other wasn't an option as far as Harry was aware

And hell, even for all the 'mortal BS' Murphy still soloed Nicodemus and damned near killed him. He even admits he doesn't know what would have happened if she hadn't said the exact wrong thing at the exact wrong moment.

That said...I think I just thought of a better answer my own question. I doubt Kincaid would take any contract involving aiding Nicodemus in any way after the shit he pulled against Ivy.

Eh, if we're going to go down this route Mab can just as easily shield the meeting where Harry tells Kincaid what the score is if she's hiring him. Or even just make liberal use of the “Hey Kincaid, I’ve been ordered to ‘help Nicodemus’ with a job. Would you like to join me in ‘helping Nicodemus’ with a job so that I can be absolutely sure that I’m able to ‘render all possible aid and assistance’ to our good friend Nicodemus?”

Not like Nicodemus didn’t know exactly what Harry’s general intent was here.

New thought: the reason why Nicodemus actually needed Harry seems a little weak in retrospect. Yeah Hannah was apparently the world’s premier prodigy with fire magic and has a mastery over it that Nicodemus couldn’t find anywhere else, but are there really that few fast athletic guys who can shrug off crazy amounts of cold?

[White Haven]

'I know there is a Gate of Ice' and 'I know that the Gate of Ice is a massive, frozen Parkour track' (Parkour!) are two very different things. It's entirely possible that Nicky didn't know the details, and so just decided to plug Winter Knight into Gate of Ice as a relatively safe bet.

[Ralin]

'I know there is a Gate of Ice' and 'I know that the Gate of Ice is a massive, frozen Parkour track' (Parkour!) are two very different things. It's entirely possible that Nicky didn't know the details, and so just decided to plug Winter Knight into Gate of Ice as a relatively safe bet.

I suppose. But he did know how the Gate of Blood worked, and Dresden was sure that he was lying when he said he didn't know anything about after the gates, so ...

Involving Harry Dresden in your brilliant master plan is p. much never a safe bet.

[dragon]

only a few dozen pages or so into the book but already enjoying it

[Steve]

Um, any normal athletic guy wouldn't do, you'd need someone who had large amounts of ice power or some other magical protection or resistance. Again, Harry is the Winter Knight, safe bet.

And I suspect Nicodemus wanted him along specifically to get him killed anyway. He would have had Harry and whomever else was backing him dead to rights in the Vault if not for the fact that Harry hired Grey first.

[Minischoles]

Loved it, can see a definite trend in recent books to really ratchet things up - and yet again Butcher set up a load of Chekhovs books ago that paid off.

Few Points
- I wonder which 'Enemy' Nicodemus was referring to when he killed his daughter - the White God, Lucifer or Nemesis?
- A load more Chekhovs guns just waiting to go off in further books
- Imagine what Uriel managed to get up to while we was mortal. He's already outright stated that as an Angel he is incredibly constrained, but as a mortal he gets that lovely free will
- On that point, Uriel must trust Michael a great deal, given he had the power to make him Fall if he did anything wrong
- So Hades was guarding weapons, not just riches - I figure the knife Harry got hold of will be the most important
- Butters stepping up was very cool, prepared to go out and face down Nicodemus and his mooks - even with Bob helping he's still just a mortal
- Murphy showing why she's unsuitable as a Knight - its been hinted she was tapped for the job, but her moral code doesn't allow people to get away with things - but the Knights are about saving the bearers of the coin, not bringing them to justice.

[Ralin]

Um, any normal athletic guy wouldn't do, you'd need someone who had large amounts of ice power or some other magical protection or resistance. Again, Harry is the Winter Knight, safe bet. to get him killed anyway. He would have had Harry and whomever else was backing him dead to rights in the Vault if not for the fact that Harry hired Grey first.

Just seems like that's a trait that wouldn't be so rare you'd need to bring in the one person most likely to turn your brilliant plan into a clusterfuck of epic proportions. But yeah, apparently so.

[Gaidin]

- Imagine what Uriel managed to get up to while we was mortal. He's already outright stated that as an Angel he is incredibly constrained, but as a mortal he gets that lovely free will

With the knowledge he had with which he couldn't do more than set the playing field and let the pieces choose, all he needs is a telephone and he can do some nasty stuff to the opposition. Though honestly, I'm not sure Uriel is the kind to make a move like that. He's still who he is.

[Ralin]

Yeah, no doubt an unrestrained Uriel with access to a telephone could set any number of balls rolling, but I suspect that it doesn't work that way. Able to blow up galaxies or not God or whoever has still apparently ordered Uriel to respect mortal free will, and Uriel's vast knowledge and experience means that he can do the exact same thing with the right words or bits of information while transubstantiated as while nigh-omnipotent.

Remember what Lasciel did to Harry with just a few words at a bad moment? Last thing Uriel wants to do is give the other side a chance to do more of that.

[PKRudeBoy]

I would have liked Ascher to have survived, although we never do see a body. I'm surprised Harry didn't let Marcone try the real Shroud.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I felt Nic picked Harry because:

1. Harry had the strength and speed.
2. Harry was immune to cold.
3. Harry could open a Way.
4. Harry was familiar with Chicago, which is where the Way needed to be opened.
5. He was weak enough that Nicodemus thought he could take him physically.
6. He was moral enough that he wouldn't clash with the team of trained killers.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Loved it, can see a definite trend in recent books to really ratchet things up - and yet again Butcher set up a load of Chekhovs books ago that paid off.

Few Points
- I wonder which 'Enemy' Nicodemus was referring to when he killed his daughter - the White God, Lucifer or Nemesis?

Even money is on Nemesis. Niccodemus is aware of it, he discussed as much with Harry on their previous encounter.

- On that point, Uriel must trust Michael a great deal, given he had the power to make him Fall if he did anything wrong

Yeah, that was... rather unrealistic. (Granted, though, I think that Falling would probably require a little bit more than accidentally pushing over little old ladies).

- So Hades was guarding weapons, not just riches - I figure the knife Harry got hold of will be the most important

Dude, it's the Freaking Spear {tip} of Longinus. It's the MOTHER of all mythological weapons capable of doing unspeakable harm to immortals, gods, and long haired hippies.
(Also, I now have a strong urge to dig up my copies of Robin Jarvis's "Wyrd Museum" books. )

[The Grim Squeaker]

Um, any normal athletic guy wouldn't do, you'd need someone who had large amounts of ice power or some other magical protection or resistance. Again, Harry is the Winter Knight, safe bet. to get him killed anyway. He would have had Harry and whomever else was backing him dead to rights in the Vault if not for the fact that Harry hired Grey first.

Just seems like that's a trait that wouldn't be so rare you'd need to bring in the one person most likely to turn your brilliant plan into a clusterfuck of epic proportions. But yeah, apparently so.

Well, he did plan (succesfully) to get Harry-nee-Murphy involved, so that he could hopefully shatter one of the swords. (Remember Ivy? He legitimately considered removing a sword as equivalently valuable to corrupting the Archive and causing global nuclear armageddon).

[Minischoles]

The thing is everything constraining Uriel is literally the angel part, just like the Angel of Death that was guarding Father Forthill. Phenomenal cosmic power but almost completely unable to use it because they're not mortal and don't have free will.
If one of the fallen act, he can act in the exact same mirror way and presumably vice versa - but for a period he wasn't bound by those rules, so the Fallen can't act in opposition as he wasn't an angel. I'd imagine Uriel, no matter what his moral code, was extremely tempted to at least put a few things in place. However maybe now one of the Fallen get to move that kind of power around, in the exact same mirror fashion.

I also like how two of Harrys first three actions as the Winter Knight have been to avenge slights made towards Mab and Winter if you look at it in a certain way
- Changes, has the Winter Knight destroy an entire court of vampires for violating her territory. A pretty thorough warning towards everyone else not to fuck with Winter
- Skin Games, has the Winter Knight ruin Nicodemus and his ilk after they violated the Accords.

It's no wonder that Mab was willing to wait so long for Harry to be the Knight.

[Gaidin]

3 for 3.

The second job in Cold Days has the Winter Knight wreck the Nemesis espionage efforts into the Winter Court and their attempt to blow Demonreach. Albeit at great price.