Clone Troopers

[vakundok]

Lord of the Farce: If I remember well, Anakin ordered the pilot to shoot Dooku down.

Vympel: I was very impressed by the sentry guns and I thought the guys on the corvette would like those toys.
If they wanted Solo and Leia alive, why they would not use those blue rings that stunned Leia in ANH (and were fired from a regular stormtrooper blaster)?
Would you be so kind to create some screenshots showing humans turning to red paste from a hand held blaster weapon?

His Divine Shadow: (about Slave1) Yes, in the novelization Boba activated the main guns of the Slave1 for the very first time of his life, fired (the fire produced a single explosion) and left the control seat because the batteries were depleted.
Since logic suggests that the batteries had to hold power at least for a full power shot, I do not know the official reason why Boba did not fire again.
You mentioned extended wear and tear the second time. Do you seriously think that the emperor's bests had maintenance problems or a lass than an hour battle can result such problems?
I have not checked it but have you heard an other blaster being powered up fully to relate to?

So, well:
In AoTC approximately half of the clonetroopers used their rifles in normal (shoulder) position. When they arrived to the arena I saw (from Yoda's gunship) one lifting the rifle to normal position before opening fire. If the targeting system was integrated within the helmet it would be a completely unneccesary movement. Why did a highly trained warrior (created only to be combat effective) do an unneccesary movement?
Range is one thing. The question whether they can hit a human from that range. On the corvette where stormtroopers were the most effective, they missed half-covered people several times from the range that seemed to be less than a dozen metres. (At least in the remastered edition (not SE) the first four or five blasts resulted no rebell casualties.)

Do you agree that in a one on one situation the first hit wins?
Do you agree that a marine can more easily cover an area with series of "more than knocking down" bullets than a clonetrooper could kill marines individually on that area?
Do you agree that we have no data so we canot clearly reject the possibility of the gunship being destroyed by the missile volley of the dropship?

Side note:
So far we referred only to the pulsar rifle as the marine's weapon. What about the smartgun? It is a squad level weapon so it must be more powerfull than the rifles.

Another side note:
Interesting. At least in the hungarian version of the novelization of AoTC
(based on R A Salvatore: Episode II Attack of the Clones The Ballantine Books Del Rey) the pilot answered to Anakin that they were out of range, not that they were out of ordenance or missiles.

[Illuminatus Primus]

They're not supposed to have KT effects in those situations, they'd be counter productive, if not down right dangerous.

We're talking a 2 degree cone here. That's basically equivalent to a blaster pulse anyway in focus rather than a blast.

Furthermore, if a light courier/interceptor like Obi-Wan's Delta can take multiple kt range hits with armor scoring and little else from Slave 1, what do you think AT-TE's have?

[His Divine Shadow]

We're talking a 2 degree cone here. That's basically equivalent to a blaster pulse anyway in focus rather than a blast

Certainly didn't look like that either.

Furthermore, if a light courier/interceptor like Obi-Wan's Delta can take multiple kt range hits with armor scoring and little else from Slave 1, what do you think AT-TE's have?

Less, they don't have shields.

[His Divine Shadow]

Since logic suggests that the batteries had to hold power at least for a full power shot, I do not know the official reason why Boba did not fire again

No, logic does not suggest that, I don't know where/who/what on earth would ever suggest that you'd keep a loaded weapon around without a safety, a full power blast would have blown up the landing pad, at best I was probably some left over residue in the capacitors that allowed for a few shots.

You mentioned extended wear and tear the second time. Do you seriously think that the emperor's bests had maintenance problems or a lass than an hour battle can result such problems?

They where hardly the Emperor's best, we've seen better.
A problem like that can be hidden without being detected anyway, unless you think they do periodic high-resolution scans of suits of armor all the time.

I have not checked it but have you heard an other blaster being powered up fully to relate to?

Yes, the clone-rifle for example:

Pg. 29: Exceptionaly powerful clone trooper blaster rifles: Max-power shot leaves a .5 m (1.6 ft) crater in any ferrocrete wall

(ref: Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections)

Or:

Han did. The Burning was a torture involving the use of a blaster set at low power, to scorch and sear the flesh off a prisoner, leaving only blood-smeared bone.

(ref: Han Solo at Star's End)

Pg. 118: Turning his pistol to maximum...

(ref: Star Wars IV: A New Hope Novellization)

Pg. 6: The side-mounted powerpack supplies enough energy for 100 shots. The E-11 can be set for a variety of power levels, from stun to full blast.

(ref: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology)

[white_rabbit]

They where hardly the Emperor's best, we've seen better

He did kinda say something along the lines of "an entire legion of my best troops"

[Illuminatus Primus]

We're talking a 2 degree cone here. That's basically equivalent to a blaster pulse anyway in focus rather than a blast

Certainly didn't look like that either.

Well the missile does detonate quite close to the armor; my point was, no one blinks about multi-kiloton energy beams, but why is so a tightly focused blast so much different?

If you scale the personal armor up to AT-TE level and consider the Delta's armor strength after Slave 1 punched through the shields, I do not see how one could expect anything other than at least low-kiloton range energy to penetrate SW armor of that scale.

Furthermore, if a light courier/interceptor like Obi-Wan's Delta can take multiple kt range hits with armor scoring and little else from Slave 1, what do you think AT-TE's have?

Less, they don't have shields.

The Delta was absorbing plenty of laser blasts without any hull scoring, when some penetrate and score the hull, that indicates shield failure.

[Sea Skimmer]

They where hardly the Emperor's best, we've seen better

He did kinda say something along the lines of "an entire legion of my best troops"

However as an dictator of a massive empire that could just as easily mean most politically reliable as most combat effective. History has shown that dictators would rather have loyal shitty men then good troops who might decided to turn on the government. Thus you get things like Stalin's purges of the Red Armies officer corps.

[Vympel]

Vympel: I was very impressed by the sentry guns and I thought the guys on the corvette would like those toys.

They might also have been impressed with a nice E-Web. So what? Your contention that the marines are better infantry is out and out bullshit. This is getting tiresome.

If they wanted Solo and Leia alive, why they would not use those blue rings that stunned Leia in ANH (and were fired from a regular stormtrooper blaster)?

Who cares? "Freeze, don't move!" Speaks for itself. Jeezus Christ.

Would you be so kind to create some screenshots showing humans turning to red paste from a hand held blaster weapon?

The clonetrooper rifles in AOTC *fragmented* battle droids. They are more powerful than the E-11. Watch the movie, then wonder at what it would do to a human body- keeping in mind the effect of Han Solo's pistol on Greedo at short range.

So, well:
In AoTC approximately half of the clonetroopers used their rifles in normal (shoulder) position. When they arrived to the arena I saw (from Yoda's gunship) one lifting the rifle to normal position before opening fire. If the targeting system was integrated within the helmet it would be a completely unneccesary movement. Why did a highly trained warrior (created only to be combat effective) do an unneccesary movement?

This has been covered before. It's not completely unecessary. By holding the damn weapon properly, you reduce the chances that you'll miss. Your attempts to try and have official evidence thrown out will not work.

Range is one thing. The question whether they can hit a human from that range. On the corvette where stormtroopers were the most effective, they missed half-covered people several times from the range that seemed to be less than a dozen metres. (At least in the remastered edition (not SE) the first four or five blasts resulted no rebell casualties.)

They were firing weren't they? Or is it your assertion that they were firing for the fun of it and were out of range?

And in Aliens the marines were uber, were they? I distinctly recall Vasquez and Drake firing their so-called 'smart' guns and hitting sweet fuck all. In terms of real-life infantry, their accuracy is fine. Only dumbass trekkies think that you can hit someone square in between the eyes with a pistol in the first shot.

Do you agree that in a one on one situation the first hit wins?

Yes. Which is why the clonetroopers will win. Easily. They have better range, better fire control (do marine rifles have sniper scopes? No. Clonetrooper rifles do- in a stored position according to the Visual Dictionary).

Do you agree that a marine can more easily cover an area with series of "more than knocking down" bullets than a clonetrooper could kill marines individually on that area?

Yeah? So? Clonetroopers will be firing from further out, and in particular, will be deploying from AT-TEs. Which will blast the puny Marine APCs easily.

Do you agree that we have no data so we canot clearly reject the possibility of the gunship being destroyed by the missile volley of the dropship?

No. The gunships are shielded. The dropships are not. The gunships win. Period.

[His Divine Shadow]

He did kinda say something along the lines of "an entire legion of my best troops"

He was wrong or was just boasting, any observer can see that there are far better situations for stormie performance, so clearly these where not the best of the Empire.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well the missile does detonate quite close to the armor; my point was, no one blinks about multi-kiloton energy beams, but why is so a tightly focused blast so much different?

I don't believe we saw any multi-Kt beams in the AOTC ground fight either, with the possible exception of the coreship being attacked.

And it certainly doesn't look like any KT level impacts, just parts of the power of such missiles hitting the ground would be catastrophic and definitly noticeable, nomatter how focused they are.
I think thats just being silly, focusing of firepower isn't going to make all firepower look like it was only fractions of what it is.

If you scale the personal armor up to AT-TE level and consider the Delta's armor strength after Slave 1 punched through the shields, I do not see how one could expect anything other than at least low-kiloton range energy to penetrate SW armor of that scale

Uhm.... no, the delta-7 never withstood any KT level impacts on it's armor, that was bleedthrough.

The Delta was absorbing plenty of laser blasts without any hull scoring, when some penetrate and score the hull, that indicates shield failure

No, it indicates bleedthrough as the shields start getting overworked, it was only a small fraction that got through, a single shot would have blown the fighter to little bits otherwise, unless this is some super-armor that neither TIE's nor X-wings nor any fighter or freighter has ever been seen with.

[vakundok]

No, logic does not suggest that, I don't know where/who/what on earth would ever suggest that you'd keep a loaded weapon around without a safety, a full power blast would have blown up the landing pad, at best I was probably some left over residue in the capacitors that allowed for a few shots.

You are right, the logic only suggests that the capacitors had to be capable of storing the energy for a full power shot, not that they were fully charged after the activation of the weapon.

A problem like that can be hidden without being detected anyway, unless you think they do periodic high-resolution scans of suits of armor all the time.

A slave had the chance to create a scanner decades before, so I think high resolution scanners are not uncommon. And in present armies the weaponry is checked periodically.

I have not checked it but have you heard an other blaster being powered up fully to relate to?

Sorry, I meant: "Have you heard the sound of an other blaster being powered up fully to relate to?"

[His Divine Shadow]

A slave had the chance to create a scanner decades before, so I think high resolution scanners are not uncommon. And in present armies the weaponry is checked periodically

A slave, scanner? wha??? You're not making any sense, and I do not believe that they'd be going through every suit of armor with scanners, if anything I'd say the trooper himself cares for his own armor.

Sorry, I meant: "Have you heard the sound of an other blaster being powered up fully to relate to?

The sound?

[vakundok]

They might also have been impressed with a nice E-Web.

When I saw the Aliens it was unknown to me that the E-Web could also be set to auto mode not requiring a gunner and not providing large target surface.

Who cares? "Freeze, don't move!" Speaks for itself. Jeezus Christ.

We talked about whether why the stormtroopers fired low power (that could still be lethal) setting shots, when not even full power salvos could hurt the bunker.

Would you be so kind to create some screenshots showing humans turning to red paste from a hand held blaster weapon?

I have not seen the ANH SE. What happened to Greedo?

This has been covered before. It's not completely unecessary. By holding the damn weapon properly, you reduce the chances that you'll miss.

And the others did not want to be more effective?

They were firing weren't they? Or is it your assertion that they were firing for the fun of it and were out of range?

The stormtroopers missed half covered people from the range less than a dozen metres. Unless this scene has been changed in the SE you canot say stormtroopers are more accurate than any present day soldier or you throw out the visual. You also canot say that the stormtroopers have integrated uber sensor and fire controll system since R2 created a covering smoke cloud against stormtroopers.

Do you agree that we have no data so we canot clearly reject the possibility of the gunship being destroyed by the missile volley of the dropship?

No. The gunships are shielded. The dropships are not. The gunships win. Period.

"The shield can protect against any missile weapon, regardless the capabilities of the weapon." Compare with this:"The deflector shield can protect against any laser weapon, regardless the capabilities of the weapon." The latter is a trekker oppinion, the former is yours.

[vakundok]

They where hardly the Emperor's best, we've seen better

He did kinda say something along the lines of "an entire legion of my best troops"

However as an dictator of a massive empire that could just as easily mean most politically reliable as most combat effective. History has shown that dictators would rather have loyal shitty men then good troops who might decided to turn on the government. Thus you get things like Stalin's purges of the Red Armies officer corps.

That was a completely different situation, since the loyality of the stormtroopers was never questioned by the emperor, was it?

[vakundok]

A slave, scanner? wha??? You're not making any sense, and I do not believe that they'd be going through every suit of armor with scanners, if anything I'd say the trooper himself cares for his own armor.

If I remember well Anakin said that he had tried to find the tracker by a scanner. Ask a soldier about how often they check their equipment, especially the weaponry.

Sorry, I meant: "Have you heard the sound of an other blaster being powered up fully to relate to?

The sound?

Yes. You refer the door of the turbolift (in ANH) as being destroyed by a regular stormtrooper blaster, because it sounded like a blaster being fully (maybe over) charged.

[His Divine Shadow]

If I remember well Anakin said that he had tried to find the tracker by a scanner.

Again you speak of things I have no idea what they are.
Nor do I see how it relates in any way to regular checks being done on stormie armor with scanners.

Ask a soldier about how often they check their equipment, especially the weaponry

The weaponry is not being discussed, it is a much more complicated system than the armor anyway

Yes. You refer the door of the turbolift (in ANH) as being destroyed by a regular stormtrooper blaster, because it sounded like a blaster being fully (maybe over) charged

No, it's a regular blaster sound, like the one we hear every time a blaster is fired, not any particular charging sound.

[Vympel]

When I saw the Aliens it was unknown to me that the E-Web could also be set to auto mode not requiring a gunner and not providing large target surface.

And when I saw Aliens I was unaware that they had shields and didn't run out of ammo in the space of a minute.

We talked about whether why the stormtroopers fired low power (that could still be lethal) setting shots, when not even full power salvos could hurt the bunker.

So?

I have not seen the ANH SE. What happened to Greedo?

You don't need to have seen SE. It's in the original theatrical print. He turns into a piece of Rodian shaped charcoal.

And the others did not want to be more effective?

Depending on the target they were going for, they may not have felt it necessary. Are you ever going to stop these nitpicks, or do you *seriously* think that you've found a contradiction between the movie and official material?

The stormtroopers missed half covered people from the range less than a dozen metres. Unless this scene has been changed in the SE you canot say stormtroopers are more accurate than any present day soldier or you throw out the visual. You also canot say that the stormtroopers have integrated uber sensor and fire controll system since R2 created a covering smoke cloud against stormtroopers.

Oh really? Not only do we not know if the smoke cloud was even effective (considering that they were being HERDED towards the Falcon, it wasn't their objective to kill) but we SEE Clonetroopers fighting in a massive dust cloud that would've BLINDED Colonial Marines after the SPHA-Ts bring down the Federation Core Ship. Deal with it. Your attempts to have evidence thrown out because it doesn't suit your preconcieved notions continue.

Whether you like it or not, improved sensors mean improved battlefield effectiveness. On the Clonetroopers side:

"Troops also share tactical video from their helmet visors, with multispectral imaging that penetrates smoke, fog, and the airborne soil of the most explosive battlezones."

"Heavy blaster rifles use video gunsight display in helmet visor and has effective range of 10km when mounted in tripod"

(Funny- I don't see anything about stormtroopers having to have perfect accuracy from this). I also find it amusing that you can indict stormtrooper accuracy like a trekkie when we see colonial marines missing targets at extreme close quarters with so called 'smart guns'.

"The shield can protect against any missile weapon, regardless the capabilities of the weapon." Compare with this:"The deflector shield can protect against any laser weapon, regardless the capabilities of the weapon." The latter is a trekker oppinion, the former is yours.

The burden of proof is on you to establish the capabilities of the dropship missiles. Anakin and Obi-Wan's gunship withstood repeated hits from a pair of Geonosian fighters equipped with laser cannons rated at 1e13 joules.

Face fucking facts and concede, because these nitpicks are getting annoying. Air-to-air missiles against unshielded craft relying on nothing more than engines less than twice as powerful as modern day engines (keeping in mind the horrendous aerodynamics of the dropship would reduce performance yet further), with no shields, would not use the kind of firepower that would penetrate the shields of a gunship from a civilization that has insane superluminal and firepower advantage already. They are ludicrously outmatched.

Modern air-to-air missiles destroy their target by spraying shrapnel at them. Is it your contention now that these dropship missiles can overcome the shields of a gunship? Because if it is, I'm laughing my ass off. I'd also be interested to know if these firecrackers could even lock on to a gunship, considering SW jamming tech.

To conclude:

Clonetroopers have more armor
More firepower
Superior aircraft and armored vehicles
Superior fire control and situational awareness
Fully enclosed protection against NBC agents
Part of a sophisticated battlefield command system as laid out in the ICS (I didn't quote it all.

Colonial Marines do not have full pressurized body armor or NBC protection- they are much more vulnerable to all battlefield hazards
They have inferior, projectile weapons which do not nearly demonstrate the firepower of SW weaponry, and without any battlefield aids for the soldier, with the exception of the 'smart gun'
Their command and control system consists of a cheap camera with awful resolution and a flip down infrared visor, yet for some inconcievable reason they have searchlights so an enemy can easily shoot them
Their vehicles are pathetic in comparison to the Clonetroopers weapons, by simple virtue of a lack of shields and weaponry only a generation or so removed from modern weaponry.

[vakundok]

If I remember well Anakin said that he had tried to find the tracker by a scanner.

Again you speak of things I have no idea what they are.
Nor do I see how it relates in any way to regular checks being done on stormie armor with scanners.

Ask a soldier about how often they check their equipment, especially the weaponry

The weaponry is not being discussed, it is a much more complicated system than the armor anyway

To clear the question: You metioned extended wear and tear two times first in relation to the armor, the second time in relation to a stormtrooper blaster. I higly doubt that stormtroopers do not check their equipment (armor and weaponry) periodically, and I think they do this by using scanners 8since scanners are not uncommon).

Yes. You refer the door of the turbolift (in ANH) as being destroyed by a regular stormtrooper blaster, because it sounded like a blaster being fully (maybe over) charged

No, it's a regular blaster sound, like the one we hear every time a blaster is fired, not any particular charging sound.

I checked the scene in the remastered edition. It sounded like a blaster shot but before the there was a sound very similar to what was present when they cut the door of the corvette. This sound was not present previously.

[His Divine Shadow]

To clear the question: You metioned extended wear and tear two times first in relation to the armor, the second time in relation to a stormtrooper blaster. I higly doubt that stormtroopers do not check their equipment (armor and weaponry) periodically, and I think they do this by using scanners 8since scanners are not uncommon)

That is an absolutely unverifiable assertion, I don't see the need to use scanners on the armor, an ordinary visual inspection by the trooper would be sufficient for the armor.

I checked the scene in the remastered edition. It sounded like a blaster shot but before the there was a sound very similar to what was present when they cut the door of the corvette. This sound was not present previously

I have not heard any such thing, can you affix a wav or something?
Besides it's rather unlikely at any rate because of the many reasons I have given already including but not limited to:

A) They have powerpacks capable of storing hundreds of megajoules as shown in visual canon(TPM) indicating that they more than capable to have weapons of the energy range discussed here.
B) Doors have been melted and blown away in the ANH novellisation
C) Trees have blown in two
D) Overloading powerpack from a blaster pistol could have blown up an entire house without problem
E) Han Solo's blaster displaying single digit megajoule range power with single shots
F) Fist sized portions of armored walls being vaporized with single hits
G) Greedo's stomach/lower torso being pretty much hollowed out from gut to back

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, I have noted that SW energy weapons, whilst firing a massless energy bolt have recoil, using this to gauge how much yield they might have has given energy figures consistant with those already mentioned

[vakundok]

We talked about whether why the stormtroopers fired low power (that could still be lethal) setting shots, when not even full power salvos could hurt the bunker.

So?

The question is still open.

I have not seen the ANH SE. What happened to Greedo?

You don't need to have seen SE. It's in the original theatrical print. He turns into a piece of Rodian shaped charcoal.

Wow! And what happened to the surroundings? I mean did the blast continue or not? (In the original movie and in the novelization he sat. What happened with his chair?)
About the present day air-to air missiles:
1. I know that the Phalanx of the Tomcat does not need to hit the target. If you say, it is true for all present day AA missiles.
2. We do not know if those (smaller) missiles were air to air missiles, unguided explosive missiles (most likely) or something more special.

To conclude:
Clonetroopers have more armor
More firepower
Superior aircraft and armored vehicles
Superior fire control and situational awareness
Fully enclosed protection against NBC agents
Part of a sophisticated battlefield command system as laid out in the ICS

- Fully enclosed armor: It is definitely an advantage when there are NBC or chemical agents or shrapnels. I do not know whether an energy blast hitting the ground or hitting a marine produces shrapnels or not.
- Superior fire control and situation awareness: We saw that later era stormtroopers were not more accurate than present day soldiers. (A dust cloud can blind a marine, but canot prevent him/her to continue firing toward the general direction of the enemy. In TESB they were not herded toward the Falcon. You may missed that the doors were closed.)
- Superior battlefield command system: It is also true, after the APCs are deployed and destroyed.
- More armor: It is an agreement that the raw kinetic energy of a bullet fired from a pulsar rifle can knock down or hurt a clonetrooper. Without being the standard explosive or AP bullet. I canot see any reason why the marines could not use AP bullets when facing clonetrooper threat.
- More firepower: It has at least two factor (firepower of a single hit and rate of fire)
for extreme ranges (>~1.5 km): It is definitely true.
for long ranges (>~500 m): It is still true (only threat is the smartgun).
for medium ranges (>~100 m): It is questionable (threats are the smartgun and the pulse rifle).
for short ranges: I think it is untrue (threats are the smartgun, the pulse rifle, the double grenade launcher of the pulse rifle and even the flamer for very short range).
-No need for reloading during battle: It is an important advantage, since a marine is ineffective during reloading.
-Superior armored vehicles: It is definitely true.
-Superior aircraft: It is an open question and maybe the most important af all. We know neither the capability (particle shield and jamming) of the gunship against missiles nor the capacity of the missiles (homing system and firepower) of the dropship. We also do not know the capability of the missiles of the gunship against the missile defense of the dropship, and we do not know exactly why the energy weapons of the gunship were not used against a speeder.

I think the most important question is the dropship versus gunship. Without datas this, and the whole question canot be decided.

[vakundok]

I have not heard any such thing, can you affix a wav or something?

Sorry for the hungarian transition, and do not forget that this is from only the remastered edition, not from the special edition.
http://web.axelero.hu/antibor/Blastingdoor.mp3Try to save it, my IE did not play it.

[His Divine Shadow]

I couldn't really make anything out of that, I'll check it out when I get home.

[Vympel]

The question is still open.

What relevance does it have to anything?

Wow! And what happened to the surroundings? I mean did the blast continue or not? (In the original movie and in the novelization he sat. What happened with his chair?)

Do you know what I'm talking about? Han Solo's pistol burned Greedo to a crisp, his head was smoking charred even though he got him from under the table. Clonetrooper rifles were blasting apart BATTLE DROIDS weighing many hundreds of kg. Think about it.

About the present day air-to air missiles:
1. I know that the Phalanx of the Tomcat does not need to hit the target. If you say, it is true for all present day AA missiles.

It is. I think you mean Phoenix missile.

2. We do not know if those (smaller) missiles were air to air missiles, unguided explosive missiles (most likely) or something more special.

Which ones?

- Fully enclosed armor: It is definitely an advantage when there are NBC or chemical agents or shrapnels. I do not know whether an energy blast hitting the ground or hitting a marine produces shrapnels or not.

Not the ground. Walls, yes, definitely.

Superior fire control and situation awareness: We saw that later era stormtroopers were not more accurate than present day soldiers. (A dust cloud can blind a marine, but canot prevent him/her to continue firing toward the general direction of the enemy. In TESB they were not herded toward the Falcon. You may missed that the doors were closed.)

So it's your contention that they were trying to kill those that Darth Vader explicitly wanted alive?

Besides, we're also discussing clonetroopers- accuracy and superior fire control and SA are two different questions. Regardless, the clonetroopers clearly have superior tools and superior ability to fight in a variety of combat conditions. Accuracy is not the issue.

More armor: It is an agreement that the raw kinetic energy of a bullet fired from a pulsar rifle can knock down or hurt a clonetrooper. Without being the standard explosive or AP bullet. I canot see any reason why the marines could not use AP bullets when facing clonetrooper threat.

From the Aliens movie, their standard ammo is Armor Piercing, not explosive. You can't make explosive bullets that small, IIRC, though if 'the fluff' says it ... (if the fluff can be used).

I think the most important question is the dropship versus gunship. Without datas this, and the whole question canot be decided.

As I have said, the gunship wins- see my reasoning above. Their capabilites are clearly established by the film, where they withstood blasts from the Geonosian fighters rated at 1e13 joules per shot by the AOTC ICS.

[vakundok]

The question is still open.

What relevance does it have to anything?

Nothing, it is just a question, because it seems to be illogical.

Do you know what I'm talking about? Han Solo's pistol burned Greedo to a crisp, his head was smoking charred even though he got him from under the table.

Yes I know. i asked the side effects of the blast that burned Greedo.

About the present day air-to air missiles:
1. I know that the Phalanx of the Tomcat does not need to hit the target. If you say, it is true for all present day AA missiles.

It is. I think you mean Phoenix missile.

Yes, but I missed to edit it in time.

2. We do not know if those (smaller) missiles were air to air missiles, unguided explosive missiles (most likely) or something more special.

Which ones?

Those 4x4 smaller missiles that were extended farther from the hull.

- Fully enclosed armor: It is definitely an advantage when there are NBC or chemical agents or shrapnels. I do not know whether an energy blast hitting the ground or hitting a marine produces shrapnels or not.

Not the ground. Walls, yes, definitely.

Walls? In a city scenario the clontroopers would loose their range advantage. For city scenarios the designers sacrificed range for the rate of fire at the end of the WW1. That was the reason for creating the submachine guns and assault rifles.

Superior fire control and situation awareness: We saw that later era stormtroopers were not more accurate than present day soldiers. (A dust cloud can blind a marine, but canot prevent him/her to continue firing toward the general direction of the enemy. In TESB they were not herded toward the Falcon. You may missed that the doors were closed.)

So it's your contention that they were trying to kill those that Darth Vader explicitly wanted alive?

He wanted only Skywalker alive. He was completely careless about the others. (He gave Solo to Boba and allowed the others to stay on Bespin. Needless to say he risked Solo.)

More armor: It is an agreement that the raw kinetic energy of a bullet fired from a pulsar rifle can knock down or hurt a clonetrooper. Without being the standard explosive or AP bullet. I canot see any reason why the marines could not use AP bullets when facing clonetrooper threat.

From the Aliens movie, their standard ammo is Armor Piercing, not explosive. You can't make explosive bullets that small, IIRC, though if 'the fluff' says it ... (if the fluff can be used).

So? In your opinion an AP bullet would cause less or more damage to the armored clonetrooper than the raw kinetic energy?

As I have said, the gunship wins- see my reasoning above. Their capabilites are clearly established by the film, where they withstood blasts from the Geonosian fighters rated at 1e13 joules per shot by the AOTC ICS.

Yes it is the capability of the ray shield. But if you say (without resources) that all of these energy can be directed to the particle shield and it has the same effectivity it will become a fan-fiction.
Side note: If you mix the visual with something it will be no longer esteblished by the film. So the capabilities of the shield against laser fire were established in the ICS, which is also a high level material.