In which gun-owners behave like spoiled children

[Gandalf]

Openly carrying a weapon while not being military or law enforcement is a threat display. If a guy marched into a restaurant with an assault rifle my first thought would be if that guy's trying to rob the place or start any other violent shit.

Why would someone openly carry a weapon into a public place in the first place?

It makes me wonder if one could openly wear a suicide vest into these places under the same pretence.

EDIT: I think I quoted the wrong post. I meant the pretence used in the OP of protection and such.

[PainRack]

In the military, we get drilled repeatedly on gun safety but it still didn't stop a cockanan from accidentally loading a loaded magazine, cocking and firing said loaded weapon Om the parade square AT the specialists quarters.

His defence? He didn't know he loaded the wrong magazine and was bored....


So.... No....Hell. we didn't bring weapons into mess on base and I'm quite sure that's the practice for every military base in a non wartime setting so fuck off.

[Lonestar]

Openly carrying a weapon while not being military or law enforcement is a threat display. If a guy marched into a restaurant with an assault rifle my first thought would be if that guy's trying to rob the place or start any other violent shit.

If he wlaked into a restaurant carrying a assault rifle I'd ask him where he got the money to buy it.


I don't like open carry activists. Some of you know I mock them fairly frequently in social media. But slung around a shoulder is different from at the low-ready which a lot of people are doing, and cannot be construed as anything other than brandishing.

Why would someone openly carry a weapon into a public place in the first place?

I've opened carried longarms several times. When buying a used gun that did not come with a carrying case, although I guess you could call carrying my Mosin in a gun sock rather than a case to and from my car open carry.


I've open-carried my XD-9 while in hiking in hog country because I was worried about my dog getting gored. Some people don't count the national forests as "public space" because it tends to be "out of sight, out of mind" and the backcountry is considered a appropriate enviroment for firearms.

[General Zod]

Some people don't count the national forests as "public space" because it tends to be "out of sight, out of mind" and the backcountry is considered a appropriate enviroment for firearms.

Pretty much. If you want to go out in nature with guns, well, you've got plenty of justification and it's a lot less likely you're going to hit a child or anyone else with a stray bullet. I can't fathom the kind of person that's so terrified of going into a Chili's that they feel a need to bring a rifle with them.

[TheFeniX]

I've opened carried longarms several times. When buying a used gun that did not come with a carrying case, although I guess you could call carrying my Mosin in a gun sock rather than a case to and from my car open carry.

That's really not the same thing and it was only recently (maybe 10 years or so) in Texas where it's been legal to transport guns (if you weren't traveling) to some place other than to a shooting range and/or gun show without going straight there and straight back.

I've open-carried my XD-9 while in hiking in hog country because I was worried about my dog getting gored. Some people don't count the national forests as "public space" because it tends to be "out of sight, out of mind" and the backcountry is considered a appropriate enviroment for firearms.

I can almost buy the whole "slung over the shoulder" bit even though I'm not a proponent of open-carry laws in urban areas. But where it breaks down for me is that just daily activities are going to require handling the rifle in one way or the other. The only time my pistol comes off my hip or gets touched in any real way in "public" is if I find myself in a bathroom stall.

I doubt you were walking around with your pistol drawn instead of having it safely holstered. Hell, I'd get nervous just seeing a cop handle his pistol in public, but have no concern if the thing is holstered. That's what bugs me about dudes walking around with rifles at the low-ready: to me that's brandishing. And every time a guy has to fuck with his rifle because it's position has shifted (which happens a fair amount with a 2-point harness, even more with a 1-point), it'd make me as nervous as if a cop was placing his hand on his gun every time he needed to move.

I can't fathom the kind of person that's so terrified of going into a Chili's that they feel a need to bring a rifle with them.

I have to agree. It's not like they're eating at Arby's or anything.

[Beowulf]

I'm just going to note that the state where they're doing the open carry demonstration prohibits open carry of pistols. Thus, they're carrying the only firearm they can legally open carry (long arms). They should have it slung over their back, however. There's little to no reason to be carrying at low ready.

[Edi]

The whining from these open carry activist asshats is pathetic. They blithely ignore all the relevant things. One of those is that humans are pack animals who generally extend trust only to what they consider their own extended pack, usually friends and family (and not always even that since you can choose your friends but not your family). Everybody else gets viewed through the lens of being a stranger and thus a potential threat.

So, if a strange group of mostly men appears in public carrying lethal weapons, that is going to set off practically every sort of evolutionary alarm about an imminent threat in every sane person regardless of what their stated purpose in that show of force is. Since they do not belong to designated group of trusted pack sentries (which is what the function of police and military are from this point of view), they are perceived as a threat and as being intimidating and there is nothing they can do about it. Their behavior is intimidation by default.

I wonder what they would make of, say, about a dozen black men dressed like stereotypical gangstas going for a walk in their neighborhoods openly carrying long guns. Or a group of Middle Eastern looking men wearing clothing typical of the region and carrying guns. My guess is that at best it would lead to a tense standoff, but more likely than that there would be shots fired as they shit their pants about being attacked by criminals and terrorists.

[madd0ct0r]

I'm just going to note that the state where they're doing the open carry demonstration prohibits open carry of pistols. Thus, they're carrying the only firearm they can legally open carry (long arms). They should have it slung over their back, however. There's little to no reason to be carrying at low ready.

OK, that does change things, but if they're protesting then they really should make that clear.

[Lord Anubis]

Personally I've always been of the opinion that an open carry, armed society is one good car backfire away from a massacre.

I'm of the belief that if you want to hunt, then go ahead and own a rifle or two. Heck own more if you're a collector or hunter. Different guns for different uses like duck hunting, moose or what not. Pistols for self defense I can ever understand. But open carry of a long arm rifle for no other reason that you feel like it just makes you out to be a complete moron and a waste of genetic material.

Now about the two idiots in the OP what's to prevent some store owner from seeing two idiots toting long arms like this, jumping to the not out of the question conclusion that this is about to be an armed robbery and pulling out his own legal firearm and putting five rounds rapid into each of them before anyone can react?

[Simon_Jester]

Personally I've always been of the opinion that an open carry, armed society is one good car backfire away from a massacre...

Now about the two idiots in the OP what's to prevent some store owner from seeing two idiots toting long arms like this, jumping to the not out of the question conclusion that this is about to be an armed robbery and pulling out his own legal firearm and putting five rounds rapid into each of them before anyone can react?

I am reminded of the spartoi from Greek mythology, who were supposedly sons of Ares that would spring up out of the ground in a field where someone planted dragon's teeth.

These mighty warriors were strong enough that even a hero had no real chance against them... unless he chucked a rock at them from behind a bush and hit one of them from behind. In which case the resulting brawl would cause them to kill each other off without any serious effort on his part.

[I had hoped I could do some wordplay here with the words 'hoplophile' and 'hoplophobe' favored by some gun rights advocates, but the tie between that and 'spartoi' is a bit weak for that. Darn. ]

[LaCroix]

It's probably a better situation here with open carry, at least you know there is a gun there for that to happen and can even stay clear of the barrel.

Your logic is quite distorted. Why should everone esle be forced to always watch out for carried guns to keep clear of the barrel?

Anyone who carries a gun in a way that would muzzle swipe any bystander is already breaking all known safety rules, and in some(I hope it's most, but I can't speak for everyone) places, the law. And he should at least lose his license to carry, immediately, for that crap.

[Patroklos]

They are already carrying, concealed is allowed in pretty much every state in the union. Out of site out of mind and I posted a link showing a concealed carry discharge killing someone the threat you know vice the one you don't, it's there regardless.

It's been posted on this board over and over again how concealed carry permit holders have a practically zero chance of committing gun violence while exercising that right. So far we have zero examples of open carry people doing so. You either object to guns in public or you don't, there is no public safety reason to approve of one type of carry and not the other.

[General Zod]

They are already carrying, concealed is allowed in pretty much every state in the union. Out of site out of mind and I posted a link showing a concealed carry discharge killing someone the threat you know vice the one you don't, it's there regardless.

It's been posted on this board over and over again how concealed carry permit holders have a practically zero chance of committing gun violence while exercising that right. So far we have zero examples of open carry people doing so. You either object to guns in public or you don't, there is no public safety reason to approve of one type of carry and not the other.

The problem isn't necessarily open carry owners committing violence, but behaving irresponsibly. Walking around with your gun like it's a gold chain in order to intimidate people is reckless behavior and the sort of thing anyone who's pro carry ought to condemn, instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending there isn't a problem.

[eyl]

I doubt you were walking around with your pistol drawn instead of having it safely holstered. Hell, I'd get nervous just seeing a cop handle his pistol in public, but have no concern if the thing is holstered. That's what bugs me about dudes walking around with rifles at the low-ready: to me that's brandishing. And every time a guy has to fuck with his rifle because it's position has shifted (which happens a fair amount with a 2-point harness, even more with a 1-point), it'd make me as nervous as if a cop was placing his hand on his gun every time he needed to move.

Just for some perspective - I'm from a country where people walking around with assault rifles in the street is a common sight (usually soldiers, but occasionally some of them are in civvies and there's also the occasional civilian in some areas). It would still make people very nervous to see them carrying in low-ready rather than shoulder slung (and frankly it would also be a pain in the ass for the wielder; I was required to carry a rifle pretty much everywhere for 4.5 years and I can assure you that the novelty wears off really fast).

[Zwinmar]

Hell, on base we had to sling are rifles muzzle up, the only time we went muzzle down was when it was raining (the official word was so it didn't attract a lightning bolt). Out in the field was the only time we went to the ready. As a result, if someone flags me with any weapon, it sets off all sorts of warning bells in my mind that someone is about to kill me because:
"Treat every weapon as if it were loaded" and "Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot"

Additionally, deadly force is not just the act of trying to kill or harm someone, it is also that "...which a reasonable and prudent person would consider likely of creating a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm." A firearm, or any weapon, in my direction meets that criteria.

I did notice in the videos that these knuckleheads were using tactical slings which means they can go hands free...major bad juju, you should always know where your weapon is.

[Batman]

So, just for curiousity's sake-you march into that restaurant with your rifle over your shoulder. You place your order, you are served, you start to eat.
A street gang/drug dealers/the communists/the Klingons burst into the restaurant demanding whatever it is you least want to give them. They have their weapons at the ready, you do not (on account of being busy eating). How, exactly, does carrying around a rifle you'll never get a chance to use make you any safer?

[Patroklos]

You just described police officers 99% of the time.

[General Zod]

You just described police officers 99% of the time.

Except whether or not they're police is going to make a huge difference in terms of psychology. Chances are good thugs picking a restaurant will see a cop car and think "Nah, maybe not this one. Too risky." They won't know if joe schmuck has a rifle until after they enter a building, and then it's too late.

[Spoonist]

So, just for curiousity's sake-you march into that restaurant with your rifle over your shoulder. You place your order, you are served, you start to eat.
A street gang/drug dealers/the communists/the Klingons burst into the restaurant demanding whatever it is you least want to give them. They have their weapons at the ready, you do not (on account of being busy eating). How, exactly, does carrying around a rifle you'll never get a chance to use make you any safer?

Nah, its to make you safer versus that bloody king of england.

Here is the thing though, if it was known that one facility was frequented by gun totin mad men and another wasn't then its more likely that would be robbers would go for the one that wasn't. Just like known cop hangouts, like the local coffeeshop or deli, is less likely to be a target. Or local biker bar.
Especially since most robbers go for targets they themselves frequent or know about, so a common display of weapons or other deterrant will mean less robberies. So while it wouldn't help the specific gun totin mad man it could help the facitility. But if it was evenly spread or infrequent then it doesn't matter.
Then we have the whole scaring off other potential customers, like most wouldn't take their families out for dinner if its usually frequented by gun totin mad men.

You just described police officers 99% of the time.

Not really the same though. Handguns are a different thing, especially if you have them in a quick access holster. Well, at least if you don't have a too visible uniform.

[Borgholio]

Then we have the whole scaring off other potential customers, like most wouldn't take their families out for dinner if its usually frequented by gun totin mad men.

That's what's going on with Chili's and the other places. They'd rather lose the business of the gun-toting nuts than the (far larger) number of families that the gun-nuts are scaring away. Simple business...just like those places in Mississippi who are welcoming gays even if it means less Fundie business.

[Metahive]

Here is the thing though, if it was known that one facility was frequented by gun totin mad men and another wasn't then its more likely that would be robbers would go for the one that wasn't. Just like known cop hangouts, like the local coffeeshop or deli, is less likely to be a target. Or local biker bar.
Especially since most robbers go for targets they themselves frequent or know about, so a common display of weapons or other deterrant will mean less robberies. So while it wouldn't help the specific gun totin mad man it could help the facitility. But if it was evenly spread or infrequent then it doesn't matter.

Well, or it helps someone find the next target to steal guns from. Guns are valuable on the black market after all.

[Borgholio]

Even the NRA is telling these open carry guys to back off a bit. Even funnier, the open-carriers are calling the NRA a liberal sellout. NRA is many things but I never thought they'd be accused of being liberal.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairp ... hborly.php

Open Carry Texas and its most active local offshoot, Open Carry Tarrant County, have succeeded marvelously in their quest to mercilessly troll gun-control advocates. Whether they've made any progress toward their stated aim of legalizing openly carried handguns in Texas, however, is another matter.

The National Rifle Association, for one, thinks it may be counterproductive. In a blog post, NRA's Institute for Legislative Action, the most powerful pro-gun group in America, wrote that demonstrating with assault rifles in Chipotle and Home Depot parking lots may be hurting the push for expanded Second Amendment rights.

Now we love AR-15s and AKs as much as anybody, and we know that these sorts of semiautomatic carbines are among the most popular, fastest selling firearms in America today. Texas, independent-minded and liberty-loving place that it is, doesn't ban the carrying of loaded long guns in public, nor does it require a permit for this activity. Yet some so-called firearm advocates seem determined to change this.

Recently, demonstrators have been showing up in various public places, including coffee shops and fast food restaurants, openly toting a variety of tactical long guns. Unlicensed open carry of handguns is legal in about half the U.S. states, and it is relatively common and uncontroversial in some places.

Yet while unlicensed open carry of long guns is also typically legal in most places, it is a rare sight to see someone sidle up next to you in line for lunch with a 7.62 rifle slung across his chest, much less a whole gaggle of folks descending on the same public venue with similar arms.

Let's not mince words, not only is it rare, it's downright weird and certainly not a practical way to go normally about your business while being prepared to defend yourself. To those who are not acquainted with the dubious practice of using public displays of firearms as a means to draw attention to oneself or one's cause, it can be downright scary. It makes folks who might normally be perfectly open-minded about firearms feel uncomfortable and question the motives of pro-gun advocates.

As a result of these hijinx, two popular fast food outlets have recently requested patrons to keep guns off the premises (more information can be found here and here). In other words, the freedom and goodwill these businesses had previously extended to gun owners has been curtailed because of the actions of an attention-hungry few who thought only of themselves and not of those who might be affected by their behavior. To state the obvious, that's counterproductive for the gun owning community.

More to the point, it's just not neighborly, which is out of character for the big-hearted residents of Texas. Using guns merely to draw attention to yourself in public not only defies common sense, it shows a lack of consideration and manners. That's not the Texas way. And that's certainly not the NRA way.

Open Carry Texas responded with a bitter rebuttal, accusing the NRA of being a weak-kneed defender of the gun-phobic status quo:

The NRA has lost its relevance and sided with #guncontrolextremists and their lapdog media. No one in NRA leadership has ever been to an OCT event, but feels competent to speak out against them. Keep in mind, the NRA has done nothing in Texas to get open carry passed to this point and continues to fight it in our state. After all, they make money through licensing schemes of our rights, so unlicensed open carry hurts their bottom line.

This claim isn't exactly true. Two months ago the NRA's main Texas lobbyist spoke before the state Senate's Rural Affairs & Homeland Security Committee as it debated whether to ease gun laws in Texas. Matter of fact, she addressed the committee immediately before Open Carry Texas founder CJ Grisham took the podium.

In her testimony, she made the NRA's position on openly carried handguns abundantly clear:

"I think everybody should have that right."

[Spoonist]

Well, or it helps someone find the next target to steal guns from. Guns are valuable on the black market after all.

That is not really congruent with how criminals act. Most cases where people have been robbed of their guns is when they target the gun-carrier specificly as in a personal robbery, not when they are after cash in an establishment.
If you are after guns to sell you usually do break-ins not robberies.
Its very strange how the human mind works but it seems that if they are after a specific item X in a robbery they usually will miss taking valuable object Y. Probably because of the adrenaline tunnel vision effect. While break-ins which are not as adrenaline prone seems to be the opposite of the spectrum where they will take anything even things that are definately not valuable or that portable.

[Metahive]

I didn't mean that they would steal the guns at the bar, just that they would find out where they could get them. An OCT member also probably has more than one gun, so even more incentive to pay a visit to that home while the guy is proudly parading part of his collection in public.
Most guns on the US black market are taken from legal gun owners after all.

[General Zod]

I didn't mean that they would steal the guns at the bar, just that they would find out where they could get them. An OCT member also probably has more than one gun, so even more incentive to pay a visit to that home while the guy is proudly parading part of his collection in public.
Most guns on the US black market are taken from legal gun owners after all.

According to this source, most criminals get them from friends and family. The second biggest majority get them illegally, but I'd wager most of the people who commit crimes with the gun don't actually steal the guns themselves.