Death Squadron in B5

[cmdrjones]

Hello all, I am doing some research for a fanfic I have always wanted to take a stab at and realized that while I have been working on an outline, I will need a lot of technical advise in order to make sure I can keep peoples willing suspension of disbelief or it won't be much of a story.


Title: Vae Victis

Basic Premise: The Death Squadron, directly after the battle of Hoth is transported by crazy Tachyon field ancient technology whatzit into the far future where it arrives near Akdor in 2257 in the B5 verse. There Darth Vader and his battered and surprised minions must find their place in this new galaxy.

First, I would like you basic thoughts at this point.... does this sound interesting at all? Do you think this could even work as a concept? etc

Theme: Good and Evil

B5 has a lot to say about philosophy, religion, morality, etc but I think that the addition lf SW, especially a central character like Darth Vader can really turn things up a notch with regards to the nature of Good and Evil, how the Force relates to other religious and philosophical systems and so on....


Plot: Lots of things getting blown the EF up!

The plot begins with the Death squadron suffering some of the same effects as we see in Babylon Squared when Babylon 4 is dragged back in time.

Question: How would the tachyon field that hit the B4 crew affect the Death Squadron? How much if any damage would be suffered by the ships? What about crewmembers going nuts and shooting at one another? How likely are temporal distortions to damage craft or kill personnel?

After arriving in the local space I have a bit in mind where Vader sends out bounty hunters and probe droids to answer the "where the heck are we?" question, after the answer the whole "Can we go home?" question (Answer: no) and "Are we on our own?" (Answer: Yes)

Question: How do you think B5 and SW Hyperspace will interact? Will any of the young races detect the Death Squadron right away? The elders?

I also have a vision of Vader going through quite a bit of information gathering before setting a course of action.
Now, I have a POD in mind that will throw the galaxy into chaos nicely and get the ball rolling so to speak. Now, I probably won't change this POD due to all the outlining/arc work I've done already, but I just want your opinion on how plausible you think it might be so I'll know how much spin I have to put on it.

Deathwalker: Vader, through his spies has learned that a person of great importance has arrived on a space station called Babylon 5 which appears to be a perfect place to station a spy network in order to gain information about the new galaxy. Once Vader learns of an expert in Bio-genetic warfare with a working anti-agapic, he sends a Stardestroyer to intervene and grab the expert, regardless of cost. Of course, the B5 powers can't stop him... but do you think this would be a Vader-like decision, or would he simply say "screw it" and let the Vorlons blow her out of the sky?

More to follow....

[Venator]

I'm not too familiar with B-5 (been a long, long time) but the first thing that comes to mind is how you address the sudden shift in galactic balance of power. A single ISD outguns the Vorlon planet-killer pretty handily (see the main site - http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... llers.html), so the entirety of Death Squadron suddenly popping up without warning is a pretty huge wrench in the works of power balance. What you were suggesting about crew going mad and infighting is one way of balancing that out.

[cmdrjones]

IN the B5 episode in question crewmembers experience flash forwards and flash backs in time and become confused, but for the 1300 crew on B4 who experience this it is more or a frightening or annoying problem than an existential one. The Tachyon fields cause rapid aging and death to those in unshielded craft (though I suppose even an unshielded TIE will probably provide more protection than a Starfury simply due to the advanced construction.
I plan to use it mainly as flavor and to give the SW crew the willies about their new surroundings. (SPOILER: several of the crew foresee a massive battle with "strange mottled green squid ships")

I Know that the firepower disparity is outrageous, but I am interested more in how SW personnel will react to being masters in a new verse where they simply can't outnumber everybody. Which = conflict and compromise which = drama.

[Crazedwraith]

Well all I know of B5 is from SFDebris reveiws. But even so if Death Squadron is suddenly the big fish in the little pond. They do have a lot of problems considering they've just been entirely cut off from their resource base. Sure, they can wipe the floor with anything combat wise but every drop of fuel they expend, every torpedo they fire, every spare part they have to used in routine maintenance. All of that is absolutely irreplaceable in their new home.

So they can't flex their muscles that much. They've got to be sneakier than that.

[Venator]

I think that, at that point, the operational range and endurance of SW ships becomes a major factor. We know that ISDs have pretty huge range, but it brings into question whether Death Squadron had full tanks going into the Battle of Hoth or if they were running on fumes (or where in between). They certainly hadn't suffered much battle wear (other than the ship(s) hit by the Rebel ion cannon) if this takes place after the battle but before the asteroid field.

It would also stand to reason that they'd have scads of probe droids still available for scouting and mapping purposes.

[Thanas]

Well, the ISDs and the Executor carry planetary bases prefab with them, so they would probably look for resources they need then claim then in the name of the empire.

[Sidewinder]

First, I would like you basic thoughts at this point.... does this sound interesting at all? Do you think this could even work as a concept? etc

Seems interesting as a concept. I saw very few SW/B5 crossovers on Fanfiction.net (the one-shot Between the Darkness and the Light is one of only three listed), and it will be entertaining to see more.

Theme: Good and Evil

B5 has a lot to say about philosophy, religion, morality, etc but I think that the addition lf SW, especially a central character like Darth Vader can really turn things up a notch with regards to the nature of Good and Evil, how the Force relates to other religious and philosophical systems and so on...

From what I understand of the B5 setting, the "younger races" are proxies through which the "First Ones" (Vorlons and the Shadows) are fighting a Cold War. The nature of "good" and "evil" is therefore "This is good because we [the First Ones] said so!" and "This is evil because we [the First Ones] said so!"

With Vader's amorality (see 'Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison', where he states, "The Jedi [saw the world] in shades of gray, when there is only what benefits the Empire, and what does not,") throwing an obvious wrench into the First Ones' works, it's likely many "younger races" will begin to adopt a similar attitude.

After arriving in the local space I have a bit in mind where Vader sends out bounty hunters and probe droids to answer the "where the heck are we?" question, after the answer the whole "Can we go home?" question (Answer: no) and "Are we on our own?" (Answer: Yes)

Vader cares about his son, Luke. Knowledge he will never have a chance to meet Luke in person, will likely make him go ballistic- with VERY BAD THINGS happening to whoever and whatever he vents his rage upon.

Question: How do you think B5 and SW Hyperspace will interact? Will any of the young races detect the Death Squadron right away? The elders?

B5 ships can do things in hyperspace that SW ships cannot, like remain relatively motionless, and maneuver in directions other than a straight line to their destination. It's likely "hyperspace" is a catch-all term for dimensions other than the physical one we reside in, and what B5 and SW define as "hyperspace" are (almost) totally different dimensions. The "First Ones" and the "younger races" may detect Death Squadron when they first appear, but once they jump into SW hyperspace, they're undetectable until they exit their hyperspace.

I also have a vision of Vader going through quite a bit of information gathering before setting a course of action.
Now, I have a POD in mind that will throw the galaxy into chaos nicely and get the ball rolling so to speak. Now, I probably won't change this POD due to all the outlining/arc work I've done already, but I just want your opinion on how plausible you think it might be so I'll know how much spin I have to put on it.

Deathwalker: Vader, through his spies has learned that a person of great importance has arrived on a space station called Babylon 5 which appears to be a perfect place to station a spy network in order to gain information about the new galaxy.

It makes sense Vader will want to gather information, but any spy he stations on Babylon 5 must not be human, because it'll take years for a SW human to get over the language and cultural barriers between them and a B5 (Earth Alliance) human. A Trandoshan like Bossk, on the other hand, is "just another alien" on Babylon 5.

Once Vader learns of an expert in Bio-genetic warfare with a working anti-agapic, he sends a Stardestroyer to intervene and grab the expert, regardless of cost. Of course, the B5 powers can't stop him... but do you think this would be a Vader-like decision, or would he simply say "screw it" and let the Vorlons blow her out of the sky?

The universal anti-agapic will certainly appeal to Vader; the bioweapons will not, because bioweapons are a dime a dozen in the SW universe.

It all depends on how smart a negotiator Jha'dur is. Vader will have zero patience for her mind games, and if she doesn't give him the serum the first time he asks, he'll immediately resort to torture and mind-rape. Anyone who tries to stop him, will be disintegrated- or they'll join Jha'dur on the torture table. If Vader wants Jha'dur dead, he'll kill her himself; he won't just step aside and let the Vorlons blow her out of the sky, "robbing me [Vader] of my vengeance," unless there is a VERY GOOD REASON for him to do so.

[cmdrjones]

To sidewinder: All interesting points.
I have in my mind a slightly less brutal Vader due to what some have claimed is the influence of the Emperor being removed from his mind and being able to "be his own man" so to speak. Also, if treatments by deathwalker can make him somewhat "more human" in that he may be able to do away with some of his bionic support suit, do you think he'll "mellow" out any?

I agree on the spy ring part, Let me clarify a tad: I expect that his spies will be working from B5 but the human ones obviously won't be stationed there. They can do electronic surveillance and analysis from some other platform.

[Sidewinder]

To sidewinder: All interesting points.
I have in my mind a slightly less brutal Vader due to what some have claimed is the influence of the Emperor being removed from his mind and being able to "be his own man" so to speak.

Well said, but whether or not Vader will "mellow out" once free of Sidious' influence, is a big unknown. As I noted, the fact he'll never see his son again, may have a great and negative effect on Vader.

I doubt Sidious' influence was what made Vader "evil," and it's more likely Sidious encouraged Anakin be more ruthless, convincing Anakin- and making Anakin convince Anakin himself- the ends justify the means. As a politician, Sidious is a convincing and influential speaker, able to make people (including Anakin, but also including the Jedi Council, the Republic Senate, the Trade Federation, etc.) believe his and their ends are the same, therefore, his and their means should be the same.

Remove Sidious' influence, and Vader will likely continue to work towards a similar end, specifically, to unite the entire galaxy under Sith rule- but with him as the ruling Sith Lord, not Sidious. Vader will likely continue to use the same means, because his experience shows these means- ruthless and brutal ones, including torture, assassination, mass murder, planet killing- work. He'll change these means if/when his experiences show these means do not work in the B5 galaxy, and not one moment before.

Also, if treatments by deathwalker can make him somewhat "more human" in that he may be able to do away with some of his bionic support suit, do you think he'll "mellow" out any?

I don't know if Jha'dur's serum can allow Vader to regenerate limbs and internal organs, like functional lungs; I personally doubt so, as I believe such a capability would be specifically mentioned in the Wikia article (I've yet to see the episode in which Jha'dur appears). However, the universal anti-agapic may allow cloners to bypass whatever it is that prevents them from successfully cloning Jedi (see 'Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II' for mention of these difficulties), and provide Vader with the organ transplants he needs. It may even allow cloners to give him a son, the way they gave Jango Fett a son (unaltered clone), and balance out the "great and negative effect" I mentioned.

[cmdrjones]

To sidewinder: All interesting points.
I have in my mind a slightly less brutal Vader due to what some have claimed is the influence of the Emperor being removed from his mind and being able to "be his own man" so to speak.

Well said, but whether or not Vader will "mellow out" once free of Sidious' influence, is a big unknown. As I noted, the fact he'll never see his son again, may have a great and negative effect on Vader.

I doubt Sidious' influence was what made Vader "evil," and it's more likely Sidious encouraged Anakin be more ruthless, convincing Anakin- and making Anakin convince Anakin himself- the ends justify the means. As a politician, Sidious is a convincing and influential speaker, able to make people (including Anakin, but also including the Jedi Council, the Republic Senate, the Trade Federation, etc.) believe his and their ends are the same, therefore, his and their means should be the same.

Remove Sidious' influence, and Vader will likely continue to work towards a similar end, specifically, to unite the entire galaxy under Sith rule- but with him as the ruling Sith Lord, not Sidious. Vader will likely continue to use the same means, because his experience shows these means- ruthless and brutal ones, including torture, assassination, mass murder, planet killing- work. He'll change these means if/when his experiences show these means do not work in the B5 galaxy, and not one moment before.

Also, if treatments by deathwalker can make him somewhat "more human" in that he may be able to do away with some of his bionic support suit, do you think he'll "mellow" out any?

I don't know if Jha'dur's serum can allow Vader to regenerate limbs and internal organs, like functional lungs; I personally doubt so, as I believe such a capability would be specifically mentioned in the Wikia article (I've yet to see the episode in which Jha'dur appears). However, the universal anti-agapic may allow cloners to bypass whatever it is that prevents them from successfully cloning Jedi (see 'Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II' for mention of these difficulties), and provide Vader with the organ transplants he needs. It may even allow cloners to give him a son, the way they gave Jango Fett a son (unaltered clone), and balance out the "great and negative effect" I mentioned.

I agree with the 1st part, but if he didn't find out the standard brutal tactics didn't work out all the time, then there wouldn't be much of a story would there?

AS for the anti-agapic I was thinking more along the lines of making him "younger" or more able to withstand surgeries designed to replace or upgrade his implants. Thank you for the information on the cloning attempts on Jedi don't work. As far as I am concerned the Force is 'powered' by life itself not strange little cellules in your blood. (Damn you Lucas!)

You are of course right about the Luke Problem..... not to add too many spoilers here, but I think I'll move the POD forward a bit to just AFTER the asteroid chase. HINT HINT

[Sidewinder]

I'm interested in how the First Ones will react upon sensing Vader. The Shadows may work out a deal with him, but they also worked out deals with individuals whose ambitions may put them in conflict with Vader (Morgan Clark being one example); Vader may conclude "The friend of my enemy is my enemy," and order all Shadows and Shadow agents (including Morden) to be destroyed on sight.

Overall, it's likely the Imperials will end up like China in the "Cold War" between the Vorlons and the Shadows, with both sides trying to court the Imperials to their side, but remaining suspicious of their loyalties and agendas.

[Borgholio]

Vader would not appreciate being manipulated by anybody. He might ally with the Shadows or Vorlons if it served his purposes, but the instant they try to meddle with him, he will get rather upset.

[Sidewinder]

Because SW hyperspace and B5 hyperspace are different dimensions, new terms should be invented to differentiate them. My idea was to use "hyperspace layer Alpha" or "Alphaspace" to describe B5 hyperspace, and "hyperspace layer Omega" or "Omegaspace" to describe SW hyperspace.

[Ted C]

Vader arrives in the galaxy with a fleet of ships that can defeat anything it meets, but as noted, he has no way to resupply that fleet. No hypermatter fuel dumps, no tibanna gas mines, none of the technology base needed to support those ships. His crews will only have the technical skills for repairing and maintaining the ships under normal operating conditions, not for rebuilding the Imperial Navy infrastructure.

Therefore, as I see it, his priority has to be securing a new resource base. He has to find a civilization that can serve his needs, quickly seize power, and then secure it against counterattack. The Star Destroyers can help with that, but they have to be used sparingly.

Hampering this effort will be lack of intelligence. There will be difficulty just navigating, since they won't have reliable maps of the galaxy (at least in the short term).

[NeoGoomba]

Barring any major engagements, how long can Death Squadron "cruise" before fuel and consumables begin to become an issue?

[Sidewinder]

Barring any major engagements, how long can Death Squadron "cruise" before fuel and consumables begin to become an issue?

A single hyperspace jump can carry them halfway across the galaxy, but because they don't have star charts accurate enough to jump without crashing into a star, they'll be limited to sublight for a while. Logically, sublight should get them across a star system- a distance equal to the diameter of Earth's orbit, at minimum- enough to get them to the next habitable planet, and the fueling station there.

As for how they're going to get fuel when there are no fueling stations compatible with what they use, well, that's for the fanfic writer to answer. As star destroyers are apparently meant to operate independently, with minimal support from other vessels (including logistical vessels, like fuel tankers), it's possible star destroyers carry devices that allow them to extract and process fuel from... wherever hypermatter comes from.

[NeoGoomba]

A single hyperspace jump can carry them halfway across the galaxy, but because it'll be a while before they get star charts accurate enough to jump without crashing into a star, they're limited to sublight for a while. Logically, sublight should get them across a star system- a distance equal to the diameter of Earth's orbit, at minimum- enough to get them to the next habitable planet, and the fueling station there.

I didn't just mean their fuel situation, but I think I phrased things poorly. What I meant was how long can Death Squadron go without a resupply in general? Not just in fuel, but spare parts, fabrication materials, and most importantly, food.

For example, I can see a food shortage playing a large part in Vader's decision making, at least initially. The Imperials will have a language barrier to deal with on the outset which will make securing food difficult, and even then they will require huge amounts for the tens of thousands of crewmen and soldiers. If I am remembering characterizations of Vader right, he did actually give a shit for his men, at least the lower echelons, right? If starvation among the squadron becomes a threat, Vader may be forced to act sooner than he would like.

EDIT - I suppose the food situation may not be so awful, since I'm sure the Centauri, Earthers, and Narn would go ballistic trying to be the first to secure some sort of trading rights with Vader, since they would love to get their hands on some Imperial tech. It would be an interesting dilemma to explore. How much will Vader negotiate before he goes into, well, Vader mode? Because once he gets ahold of even a basic set of star charts, he will remember which of the races, Younger or Older, tried to dick around with him and his people.

[Sidewinder]

Historically, the US Navy has required their ships be able to carry sufficient provisions- food, fuel, ammo, etc.- to last one month (30 days) in theater. With a star destroyer, the requirement may be for years- who knows how long it'll take for you to map a recently discovered star system, as the lack of accurate maps means you risk crashing into a planet because you don't know its location (which changes regularly, if predictably, as the planet orbits its sun)?

[Sidewinder]

How much will Vader negotiate before he goes into, well, Vader mode? Because once he gets ahold of even a basic set of star charts, he will remember which of the races, Younger or Older, tried to dick around with him and his people.

Death Squadron outguns EVERYBODY in the B5 universe, by a considerable margin. Vader will go into Vader mode the very minute someone tries to fuck him, and put on a demonstration to make sure EVERYBODY will know Death Squadron outguns them by a considerable margin. He may run out of ammo very quickly, but after such a demonstration, will any sane person be willing to call his bluff?

[Batman]

They should be able to do some basic mapping with optical telescopes alone, at least for their immediate surroundings (call it a couple hundred ly radius) so I'd not expect them to be limited to sublight for months-they just won't be able to go very far initially.

As for the fuel situation, I can't recall any mention of hypermatter extraction capabilities for ISDs/SSDs, I always simply assumed they carry enough onboard fuel for long patrols, in which case they should be okay for a good while provided they were topped off or close and can refrain from BDZing people.

[NeoGoomba]

Death Squadron outguns EVERYBODY in the B5 universe, by a considerable margin. Vader will go into Vader mode the very minute someone tries to fuck him, and put on a demonstration to make sure EVERYBODY will know Death Squadron outguns them by a considerable margin. He may run out of ammo very quickly, but after such a demonstration, will any sane person be willing to call his bluff?

Man I'd love to see a situation where the idiot Warrior Caste approaches with their gun ports open.

Perhaps Death Squadron, since they have such an immense firepower advantage and a need to conserve munitions, would simply have a rotation where one ISD would be on "combat duty" for a few days at a time. One would be enough to deter almost any fleet sent at them, and it ensures that firepower isn't depleted too quickly. Perhaps Executor itself doesn't open fire unless it's for, as you said, a demonstration. Or if the First Ones try to play rough with the new kid.

[Borgholio]

Truthfully once Vader knows Humans are a major player in the Galaxy, I'm sure he will zero in on the Earth Alliance as an ideal ally due to genetics alone. Depending on when this happens, we might have Vader taking a dim view of the Shadows screwing around with us and he'd put a stop to that and install himself as the "guardian" of Humanity. Given how we would still be scrambling for new technology to bring us on par with the Minbari...we'd gladly accept someone who could wipe the floor with them. From that point, he could make use of the EA's large industrial base to begin producing parts and supplies for his fleet. I'm certain they would be able to fabricate fueling facilities for both normal and hypermatter fuel. They would have no shortages of trained engineers and people who could whip up crude, but usable machinery.

[Batman]

Um-at that point Earth Alliance doesn't even have artificial gravity. If anything the tech disparity is even worse than it is for Trek. I'm not sure how you envision a tech base that comparably primitive producing imperial level technology or hypermatter.

[Borgholio]

I wasn't referring to the tech base....just sheer industry. Yeah B-5 is even farther behind than Trek, but the EA has been racing to build as many ships as possible so they have plenty of heavy industry that could potentially be re-tooled to make Imperial parts.

[Ted C]

There seems to be an assumption that the crew of an ISD has all of the skills required to fabricate parts and supplies for the fleet. Do the engineers on a modern navy warship understand the metallurgy and construction processes to actually build the ship from scratch?

Vader does not have the knowledge base to reconstruct an Imperial shipyard and supply chain. Those functions are outside of the scope of the ship's crew, doubtless requiring numerous civilian contractors that cater to the fleet's various needs. Earth and its colonies can no doubt provide staples like food and water, but not specialized materials that can survive the stress of a hyperspace jump or the energy release of a heavy turbolaser. They might be able to find a tibanna gas source in a gas giant somewhere, but it will probably take years to construct a functional mining facility. "Hypermatter" probably has to be made, not found, and it may take decades to figure out how to get that to work.

Death Squadron no doubt has years of supplies, assuming they don't engage in combat too often. I daresay that cruising around looking for rebels is much easier on the stores than engaging in frequent battles.

Not that they'll be engaging in difficult battles. Even the First Ones will be hard-pressed to threaten the Imperial ships.

Still, Vader needs to be looking at ways to make use of locally available technology and supplies. I think he has seen that the "Doctrine of Fear" doesn't work all that well in practice.