Seattle approves $15 per hour minimum wage

[Borgholio]

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/02/news/ec ... imum-wage/

Seattle's city council on Monday unanimously approved an increase in the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour, making it the nation's highest by far.

The increase was formally proposed by Seattle Mayor Ed Murray, and he intends to sign the ordinance on Tuesday.

Washington already has the nation's highest state-level minimum wage, at $9.32.

The current federal minimum wage is $7.25, and Democrats in Congress have been pushing for a gradual increase to $10.10, but so far to little effect.

The increase to $15 in Seattle will take place over several years. It will apply first to many large businesses in 2017 and then to all businesses by 2021.

The advocacy group 15 for Seattle estimates the the wage hike will benefit more than 100,000 workers.

Related: What is the minimum wage in your state?

Murray, a Democrat, pitched his plan as a compromise between supporters of a more immediate wage hike and concerned business owners. It was crafted by a panel that he appointed, which included both business and labor leaders.

Some think the law does not go far enough. Those critics say the plan takes too long to phase in and object to an amendment that would let businesses pay teenagers a "subminimum training wage" for their first 90 days on the job.

Related: Many low-wage workers not protected by minimum wage

Meanwhile, several states have passed or are considering proposals to adopt a $10.10 an hour minimum wage. Most recently, Michigan raised its hourly minimum to $9.25.

I guess we'll see how it turns out. On one hand, I fully approve of the idea that people should be paid a livable wage...and Seattle is fairly expensive to live in. On the other hand, how many businesses are going to cut hours, lay off workers, move out of the city, or simply close down due to the extra expense?

[Guardsman Bass]

This should make for an interesting natural experiment, since $15/hr is above even the inflation-adjusted peak US minimum wage. Of course, by the time it comes into being fully in 2021, it won't be as high in real terms since $15/hr in 2014 is about $13.50/hr in 2021 if the current low inflation rate continues until then.

Since they're phasing it in, my guess is that we don't see real job losses, although we do see more automation used in stores and fast food places (expect fast food self-checkouts). However, prices will probably be higher slightly in the chain venues with money to buy better automation, and noticeably higher in small stores and restaurants that can't afford it (those also might have lower staffing).

[wautd]

On the other hand, how many businesses are going to cut hours, lay off workers, move out of the city, or simply close down due to the extra expense?

But more people with money to spend open ups a larger market for these same businesses

[Highlord Laan]

On the other hand, how many businesses are going to cut hours, lay off workers, move out of the city, or simply close down due to the extra expense?

But more people with money to spend open ups a larger market for these same businesses

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see how it balances out.

[Zaune]

And frankly, I don't care if a few business owners do have a hissy-fit and fold or relocate. Wages have to reflect the cost of living or the wheels are going to come off.

[General Zod]

If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage and stay in business, maybe you don't deserve to stay in business.

[Borgholio]

Question - is it better to increase wages to cover an increased cost of living...or to decrease the cost of living?

[Highlord Laan]

Question - is it better to increase wages to cover an increased cost of living...or to decrease the cost of living?

A little of column A, a little of column B, in my opinion. However, lower the cost of living would require some form of price control, and trying that would cause a riot from stupid people screaming communism.

[Guardsman Bass]

They're effectively the same thing, although the costs of living decrease tends to be less visible than the wage numbers. You notice a $500 raise more than you notice that you've saved $500 on food and consumer products in a year. And people do seem to respond to lower costs of livings - Phoenix, Arizona had a lot of net inward migration before the recession despite wages that were below the national average because the costs of housing were so comparatively cheap, while Silicon Valley had net outward migration even during the Dot.com Bubble because the costs of living were so brutal.

It should be interesting to see this implemented. Will it lead to greater automation? Higher prices? Less hours worked but the jobs remaining the same? Similar hours but fewer jobs? Overall demand and pay in Seattle is already quite high, so you could just end up with any tendency towards hours or jobs reduction swamped by strong growth.

[Simon_Jester]

And frankly, I don't care if a few business owners do have a hissy-fit and fold or relocate. Wages have to reflect the cost of living or the wheels are going to come off.

If you can't afford to pay your workers a living wage and stay in business, maybe you don't deserve to stay in business.

Is there any such thing as a legitimate niche in which one might reasonably hire workers who don't live independently?

[General Zod]

Is there any such thing as a legitimate niche in which one might reasonably hire workers who don't live independently?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

[Jub]

Is there any such thing as a legitimate niche in which one might reasonably hire workers who don't live independently?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Are there any jobs that might be a good fit for say a student living at home or somebody on disability that can still work limited hours? Jobs with flexible hours, low skill, and low commitment requirements in exchange for lesser wages.

[General Zod]

Is there any such thing as a legitimate niche in which one might reasonably hire workers who don't live independently?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Are there any jobs that might be a good fit for say a student living at home or somebody on disability that can still work limited hours? Jobs with flexible hours, low skill, and low commitment requirements in exchange for lesser wages.

That's essentially what restaurant work and retail cover, but ideally we'd have a basic guaranteed income to fill the gaps.

[Darmalus]

Media seems to depend on unpaid or underpaid internships at the moment. That may not be what you're asking, I'm a little fuzzy there.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=160648

[Zaune]

A little of column A, a little of column B, in my opinion. However, lower the cost of living would require some form of price control, and trying that would cause a riot from stupid people screaming communism.

Even if it didn't, prices of some staple goods depend on factors beyond the control of the US government, or any government in fact. You can't do much to stop the price of grain going up if the Midwest gets hit with the mother of all droughts, let alone stop the price of oil going up if the Iranians mine the Strait of Hormuz in a fit of pique.

[General Zod]

A little of column A, a little of column B, in my opinion. However, lower the cost of living would require some form of price control, and trying that would cause a riot from stupid people screaming communism.

Even if it didn't, prices of some staple goods depend on factors beyond the control of the US government, or any government in fact. You can't do much to stop the price of grain going up if the Midwest gets hit with the mother of all droughts, let alone stop the price of oil going up if the Iranians mine the Strait of Hormuz in a fit of pique.

Sometimes the prices go up simply due to rampant speculation rather than any natural supply and demand factors.

[Borgholio]

What aspects of the cost of living could actually be controlled? True, some things like food and fuel can vary wildly for all sorts of reasons, property value is a hard one to control, since a renter does have a right to charge whatever he wants for his property and rent controls don't help people looking to actually buy a house or condo...

Upon reflection, I honestly can't think of anything to be done regarding the cost of living that doesn't involve utility regulation, price fixing, rent controls, or other stuff that would be wildy unpopular with a great number of people...as Highlord pointed out.

[Replicant]

What is the better plan? Raise the minimum wage to make it a (relatively) comfortable living or focus on better education and training that leaves minimum wage jobs as entry level jobs and mere stepping stones not life long careers?

[Zaune]

What is the better plan? Raise the minimum wage to make it a (relatively) comfortable living or focus on better education and training that leaves minimum wage jobs as entry level jobs and mere stepping stones not life long careers?

Why not do both?

[Broomstick]

Ok, fine - now where are all the jobs above minimum???

A big chunk of the millions of people laid off in the Great Recession are now working those minimum wage/working poor jobs NOT because they lack education or experience or work ethic but because so many middle-level jobs either evaporated due to increased automation or were outsourced overseas.

HALF the people hired to do my current job in the last five years at my employer have four-year college degrees. HALF. For a job stocking fucking store shelves. I didn't take this job because I love it or want to work on the bottom level of big-box retail, it's because there is a fucking shortage of jobs that pay a livable wage. 10 or 20 years ago yeah, it was a "stepping stone" but all the other steps seem to have vanished. I've got a college degree and 30 years of work experience and I'm fucking stocking store shelves. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with the job and I'm glad to have a job, but yeah, if there aren't real opportunities out there for me to advance in a career then at least let me have enough fucking money so I can put a goddamned roof over my head and eat on a daily basis.

Right now, more education just equals more debt for most people. A degree is no longer a guarantee of any job, much less one with a livable wage. If you can't lower the cost of living for whatever reason(s) and people with college educations can't claw their way above the bottom rung or two what fuck do you think is going to fix this problem?

[General Zod]

Ok, fine - now where are all the jobs above minimum???

Why don't you ask Mitt Romney and Bain Capital?

[Replicant]

Part of the problem is the lack of manufacturing jobs in the country and the ones that do exist are being pared back as automation makes them more efficient.

I guess one question is what does the wage have to be that it becomes cheaper to build your factory here as opposed to outsourcing it to SE Asia and paying the costs to ship it around the world.

But then how much of the increased cost in manufacturing in this country is rising labor costs and how much is government regulation. China and other countries in SE Asia that manufacture so cheaply must be financially benefitting from not caring nearly as much about the impact on the environment.

[Patroklos]

What is the better plan? Raise the minimum wage to make it a (relatively) comfortable living or focus on better education and training that leaves minimum wage jobs as entry level jobs and mere stepping stones not life long careers?

This is already the case. Something like 2/3s of minimum wage workers have already had their wages increased to above the minimum wage within a year of working at the same job. That assumes you stay at that job for a year of course, so don't expand that to ALL minimum wage workers (at least thats how I understood it).

[Civil War Man]

Right now, more education just equals more debt for most people. A degree is no longer a guarantee of any job, much less one with a livable wage. If you can't lower the cost of living for whatever reason(s) and people with college educations can't claw their way above the bottom rung or two what fuck do you think is going to fix this problem?

Someone on Cracked put it best not too long ago. In the US college education is treated as a basic necessity, in that an increasing number of positions will require a Bachelors Degree or higher even for entry-level work, but it is priced as if it is a frivolous luxury.

[Borgholio]

It's worse when you consider that many jobs require a 4-year degree even if it has nothing to do with the job position. My wife tried to apply for a job at an auto insurance company, and they demanded a 4 year degree even for a basic trainee position. The recruiter even admitted they don't care what the degree is...it could be a degree in culinary arts for all the care. That means you're paying for a 4 year degree in a subject that you don't even need for the current job just to start off as a trainee. It's bullshit.