Modern World STGOD Concept

[Siege]

Rheinland generally does not conduct assassination missions. The Schwarzer Haufen or the Rheinland Geheimdienst are the only ones who are capable of doing so (discounting other military special forces) in foreign nations. I'd prefer it if the country didn't go all Israel on people who fled. Rheinland would have demanded extraction but we would not have violated the sovereignty of others, especially not considering the country was not in the mood for another war.

One thing that might have happened is that some wealthy noble house or business clan hired some San Dorado company to take their revenge but certainly no official or unofficial Rheinland state action.

That was my second option, actually, and one I rather enjoy. A number of Britonian war criminals fled to San Dorado because, well, it's just an all round great place to flee to (no concept of nationality, no immigration restrictions, probably no extradition treaties to speak of, easy to change your face and name as long as you have enough money, etc.). So they set up shop here... And then certain interests in San Dorado promptly sold them up the river to Rheinland, maybe charging a 'disposal' or 'transport' fee for every criminal assassinated or renditioned to Rheinland.

That means the backstory can remain pretty much the same, it's just that the 'a piano fell on his head' incident is still heavily implied to have been ordered by someone in Rheinland, it's just that a discreet local removal specialist did the deed.

I dig your hardline stance about making royals swim the river by the way. But since the custom of killing folks this way was probably very well known, it to me makes it all the more likely that quite a few people of high rank tried to get the hell out of dodge when it became obvious that Rheinland was gonna win the war.

I'd like to have a few old Britonian families still survive in San Dorado, maybe because they bought their lives with suitcases full of gold, maybe because their complicity in war crimes was never conclusively proven, maybe both. Now, I take it from your description that after 300 people died ritually drowning in a river Rheinland's taste for blood was pretty much sated, and the country was probably glad to be rid of people like dukes and such long as they weren't obviously guilty of heinous crimes and they didn't make a big fuss in exile? And as a follow-up... This may be a very technical question that you're not prepared to answer yet and if so do tell me, but to what extent did the Britonians plunder South Rheinland during their occupation? And to what extent could, say, a bank in San Dorado have a vault owned by an exiled Britonian family stashed full of looted Rheinland art?

There's no immediate plans attached to the answer, I just would like to know for future reference how far I can go to make the Axum vaults a place full of gold proverbially dripping with blood and stamped with the seals of nations that no longer exist.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Come to think of it...with how interconnected noble families can get, I almost wonder if the Arcadian Royal Families might have married into Britonia's at some point. Might have a royal/high-placed noble living in Arcadia at the time of the war because of that, and by extension get off free (rather hard for them to order bombings from a different nation, a neutral one at that. Not to mention anyone living there is probably not high enough on the food chain to do so). Obviously diplomatic pressure would have them renounce any claims, but you could have remnants of the Britonian Royal Family/Nobles living in self-imposed exile with one (or more) of the Arcadian equivalents.


Just spitballing ideas mind you, not sure if I actually want to do something like that.

[Thanas]

Rheinland generally does not conduct assassination missions. The Schwarzer Haufen or the Rheinland Geheimdienst are the only ones who are capable of doing so (discounting other military special forces) in foreign nations. I'd prefer it if the country didn't go all Israel on people who fled. Rheinland would have demanded extraction but we would not have violated the sovereignty of others, especially not considering the country was not in the mood for another war.

One thing that might have happened is that some wealthy noble house or business clan hired some San Dorado company to take their revenge but certainly no official or unofficial Rheinland state action.

That was my second option, actually, and one I rather enjoy. A number of Britonian war criminals fled to San Dorado because, well, it's just an all round great place to flee to (no concept of nationality, no immigration restrictions, probably no extradition treaties to speak of, easy to change your face and name as long as you have enough money, etc.). So they set up shop here... And then certain interests in San Dorado promptly sold them up the river to Rheinland, maybe charging a 'disposal' or 'transport' fee for every criminal assassinated or renditioned to Rheinland.

Pun intended?

That means the backstory can remain pretty much the same, it's just that the 'a piano fell on his head' incident is still heavily implied to have been ordered by someone in Rheinland, it's just that a discreet local removal specialist did the deed.

I dig your hardline stance about making royals swim the river by the way. But since the custom of killing folks this way was probably very well known, it to me makes it all the more likely that quite a few people of high rank tried to get the hell out of dodge when it became obvious that Rheinland was gonna win the war.

Some, but probably not those of real high rank. I mean, Tojo didn't try to flee, Hitler didn't, Goebbels, Dönitz, Himmler, Göring didn't...mostly the mid level guys like Eichmann try to flee, but the real high level tend to try and stick it out.

I'd like to have a few old Britonian families still survive in San Dorado, maybe because they bought their lives with suitcases full of gold, maybe because their complicity in war crimes was never conclusively proven, maybe both. Now, I take it from your description that after 300 people died ritually drowning in a river Rheinland's taste for blood was pretty much sated, and the country was probably glad to be rid of people like dukes and such long as they weren't obviously guilty of heinous crimes and they didn't make a big fuss in exile?

Sure, as long as they didn't still claim their titles and publicly renounced their citizenship/property in Britonia Westrheinland etc then Rheinland probably wouldn't care.

And as a follow-up... This may be a very technical question that you're not prepared to answer yet and if so do tell me, but to what extent did the Britonians plunder South Rheinland during their occupation? And to what extent could, say, a bank in San Dorado have a vault owned by an exiled Britonian family stashed full of looted Rheinland art?

There's no immediate plans attached to the answer, I just would like to know for future reference how far I can go to make the Axum vaults a place full of gold proverbially dripping with blood and stamped with the seals of nations that no longer exist.

I got no problems with it...I suspect the really high value pieces would probably have been secured or hidden by the state but Britonia could have plundered lots of "mid-level treasures" (kinda like how lots of German museum inventories "disappeared" in the Russian occupation zone and are now kept in hidden cellars in Moscow). But, as the Britons weren't that bad in their occupation due to their public feeling war-weary, I think the Nipponese are the better candidates for having looted (see my law and history post for a few examples of their occupation) so it might be better to have Nipponese exiles there.

Rheinland never got around to prosecuting Nipponese in their entirety (sure, the titles were absorbed and are part of the blood titles) but other than that, the Nipponese got treated far more leniently (probably why the Ostrheinländer are generally better integrated politically). For one, Rheinland didn't occupy them in a brutal fashion (which many probably expected after their own occupation of Rheinland after what other nations call the first great war and what Rheinland considers the second part of the 80 years war) and didn't prosecute as much (probably because the public felt sympathetic to them having endured strategic bombing by Cascadian butchers). So I figure if some Nipponese family packed up and went into exile they'd have had a much better chance of getting away, especially if they had their wealth in portable means (looted Diamonds?) and Rheinland not caring.

So I'd figure the percentage of blood money in the vaults would be more Nipponese than Briton.

Come to think of it...with how interconnected noble families can get, I almost wonder if the Arcadian Royal Families might have married into Britonia's at some point. Might have a royal/high-placed noble living in Arcadia at the time of the war because of that, and by extension get off free (rather hard for them to order bombings from a different nation, a neutral one at that. Not to mention anyone living there is probably not high enough on the food chain to do so). Obviously diplomatic pressure would have them renounce any claims, but you could have remnants of the Britonian Royal Family/Nobles living in self-imposed exile with one (or more) of the Arcadian equivalents.


Just spitballing ideas mind you, not sure if I actually want to do something like that.

That would work as well.

[Thanas]

BTW,: If this is in any way used to stir up shit with Rheinland, as in to manufacture some sort of casus belli, then obviously nothing I've said before applies and every single royal and every single noble got killed or is held in Rheinland custody. Character pieces are obviously okay as long as they don't result in any of the aforementioned.

Not directed at anybody in particular, just making sure we understand each other.

[Skywalker_T-65]

I didn't have any plans for that. Even if I go the route of ex-Britonian Royals living with their Arcadian families, I figure they'd be more of the 'nothing we can do' persuasion. Arcadia certainly wouldn't go to war with Rheinland for a few displaced Royals, no matter how high-up their families are.

In any case, in my current backstory we're more friendly to Rheinland and Orion anyway, neither of whom would be particularly happy to see Arcadia get any ideas in that regard.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In any case, in my current backstory we're more friendly to Rheinland and Orion anyway, neither of whom would be particularly happy to see Arcadia get any ideas in that regard.

Indeed. As much as we like to use the Rheinlanders as a sort of political bogeyman for holding on to what we see as "our" territory (especially since they absorbed the Britonian royal titles) they are of far too much value as a trading partner and (mostly) ally to encourage others to start wars over such futile matters.

However, that should not be interpreted as Orion automatically siding with Rheinland against other nations. We judge each situation as it currently stands, with no regard for what happened in the past. So if anyone had a genuine grievance against Rheinland that we agreed with, we would probably either stay neutral or join with the other nation.

[Siege]

Pun intended?

Given the circumstances it seemed a fitting turn of phrase .

Some, but probably not those of real high rank. I mean, Tojo didn't try to flee, Hitler didn't, Goebbels, Dönitz, Himmler, Göring didn't...mostly the mid level guys like Eichmann try to flee, but the real high level tend to try and stick it out.

Right; clearly true believers remained in place until the bitter end and got what was coming to them. What I have in mind is more like the Duke of York getting on the last plane out with as many belongings as he could carry. People and families who were obviously very rich and well connected, but not part of the inner circle of the regime. If any inner circle people got out I imagine they'd flee to the colonies anyway, I suspect they'd realize that in San Dorado there'd be far too many people with far too much to gain by selling their asses out.

EDIT: Okay so the Duke of York is a bad example because Prince Andrew is obviously a royal but you get my idea: rich noble/business people, but not core members of the regime. Not people whose ugly mugs would show up on a deck of cards if the Rheinish ever issued such a thing.

So I'd figure the percentage of blood money in the vaults would be more Nipponese than Briton.

Got it, that suits me just fine.

If this is in any way used to stir up shit with Rheinland, as in to manufacture some sort of casus belli, then obviously nothing I've said before applies and every single royal and every single noble got killed or is held in Rheinland custody. Character pieces are obviously okay as long as they don't result in any of the aforementioned.

if the old exile families even so much as considered claiming a title or otherwise screw with business relations they'd have a corporate flatline team after them so fast they'd be dead before they could utter "I do declare". I'm sure this would have been made abundantly clear as soon as they set foot on our soil. No, to me the exile community would be just another group of rich people with a sordid past just like all the others.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, makes more sense. Expulsion of the Britonians and heavily Britonized tribes on the coast in favor of locals. Considered a terrible war crime (ethnic cleansing), but ignored since, well, the Britonians were the "bad guys" of the war.

Oh, and, Nation 3, my other ex-colony? I've decided to name it Patagonia for ironical reasons. Namely, 1) It's the actual Patagonian tip pointed northwest instead of south and 2) the brief, unrecognized Kingdom of Araucanía and Patagonia had a tricolor flag of green-white-blue just like the Cascadian tricolor, but without a fir tree.

Since part of Corona's backstory might be being an ally of Orion in the past, I'm thinking that this ethnic cleansing should be the thing that caused our countries to have a falling out.

Edit: when would this have happened again?

[Eternal_Freedom]

The explusion would be done by 1947 at the latest. Not long after Britonia and Nippon were destroyed by Rheinland. We had to finish our own little war before giving them the boot. Then there were war crimes trials, endless debate in the Senate about what to do, negotiations with indigenous leaders to determine what action they favored and so on.

But yeah, using that as the beginning of our split works well, especially if it gets exacerbated as we slip inexorably into fascism.

[TimothyC]

BTW,: If this is in any way used to stir up shit with Rheinland, as in to manufacture some sort of casus belli, then obviously nothing I've said before applies and every single royal and every single noble got killed or is held in Rheinland custody. Character pieces are obviously okay as long as they don't result in any of the aforementioned.

Not directed at anybody in particular, just making sure we understand each other.

There is the Thanas we all know!

There was one child on the line to the throne who was smuggled out of Britonia on a submarine. She may be in her 50s/60s now & have spent most of her life in Hawai'i, but she is recognized as the rightful heir to the throne......

[Esquire]

If Britonia had any interesting military technologies, then Apelia would have accepted some refugees on either the NASA Plan* or the Deluxe NASA Plan.** On a case-by-case basis, of course; a bomber engineer or designer would probably get to come in, where an RAF officer with no particular technical knowledge wouldn't.

*For people Rheinland didn't really want back, technical help in exchange for a place to live.
**For people Rheinland did really want back, the above plus a new identity and discreet bodyguards.n

[RogueIce]

So just FYI I'll be out until Tuesday. So on that note... *raises incredibly controversial topic guaranteed to start a weekend-long fight and then runs away*

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

The Nipponese occupation of western Fuso during the Second Great War was comparable to the worst excesses of the Japanese occupations of China and the Philippines, and it's the Cascadians who are considered butchers?

[Steve]

Given the Rheinlander attitude toward strategic bombing and the fact that a strategic bomber offensive was the main source of attack by Cascadia against the islands of Nippon (sortied from eastern Fuso and then, after liberation, Western Fuso), as well as Nipponese atrocities making the idea of retaliatory fire-bombing of Nipponese cities acceptable (and in fact, the general in charge of the offensive will be Air Force General Mark Sheppard ), it's not very surprising that the Rheinlanders would have that attitude now, especially if other things have happened since the war to fracture the old Rheinland-Cascadian entente.

Hell, it's why I pointed it out to Thanas. It's an interesting story hook. It introduces the possibility of dissension and tension beyond geopolitics; Rheinlander disgust with Cascadia's refusal to scrap the idea of strategic bombing, Fuso and Cascadia bristling at the "kid gloves" treatment Nippon got compared to the crushing of Britonia, maybe some islands in the Oyashima Chain that are still disputed in excess of their physical worth due to the sheer emotions of the War.

Shinn, you had it that Fuso was advanced enough that it was able to fight effectively and even manage the counterattacks that drove Nippon out of the western island areas they captured, right?

[Thanas]

BTW,: If this is in any way used to stir up shit with Rheinland, as in to manufacture some sort of casus belli, then obviously nothing I've said before applies and every single royal and every single noble got killed or is held in Rheinland custody. Character pieces are obviously okay as long as they don't result in any of the aforementioned.

Not directed at anybody in particular, just making sure we understand each other.

There is the Thanas we all know!

There was one child on the line to the throne who was smuggled out of Britonia on a submarine. She may be in her 50s/60s now & have spent most of her life in Hawai'i, but she is recognized as the rightful heir to the throne......

Are you joking right now?

Hell, it's why I pointed it out to Thanas. It's an interesting story hook. It introduces the possibility of dissension and tension beyond geopolitics; Rheinlander disgust with Cascadia's refusal to scrap the idea of strategic bombing, Fuso and Cascadia bristling at the "kid gloves" treatment Nippon got compared to the crushing of Britonia, maybe some islands in the Oyashima Chain that are still disputed in excess of their physical worth due to the sheer emotions of the War.

Disputed islands would have gotten turned over to Cascadia or Fuso after the war. And as for the attitude towards cascadia, I'd imagine it a bit more like the European/US relationship - very thankful for the assistance, but then again wondering how the hell a civilized nation could act that way.

The Nipponese occupation of western Fuso during the Second Great War was comparable to the worst excesses of the Japanese occupations of China and the Philippines, and it's the Cascadians who are considered butchers?

Well, if you put people who endured years of strategic bombing into a country that has suffered that and more (especially as this is firebombing which IRL was way more destructive in Japan than elsewhere) then they are bound to feel sympathy. Of course they know the Nipponese were bastards as they occupied Rheinland ten years before the start of the third part of the 80ys war, but if you lost significant parts of your family and then occupy firebombed cities it is very hard not to feel sympathy for the people involved. I think it is only a logical conclusion.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Hell, it's why I pointed it out to Thanas. It's an interesting story hook. It introduces the possibility of dissension and tension beyond geopolitics; Rheinlander disgust with Cascadia's refusal to scrap the idea of strategic bombing, Fuso and Cascadia bristling at the "kid gloves" treatment Nippon got compared to the crushing of Britonia, maybe some islands in the Oyashima Chain that are still disputed in excess of their physical worth due to the sheer emotions of the War.

Shinn, you had it that Fuso was advanced enough that it was able to fight effectively and even manage the counterattacks that drove Nippon out of the western island areas they captured, right?

Yeah. Fuso's ability to domestically produce weapons, as well as the training given to the Commonwealth of Fuso Armed Forces by Cascadian and Rheinlander military advisers, were what allowed Fuso to halt and eventually drive back the Nipponese offensive. Supplying the home front was still very taxing on Fuso's existing industrial base, though. They could still run weapons, blueprints, tools, raw materials, and other goods from Cascadia and Rheinland, though surface convoys would have been suicide due to the Nipponese blockade (at least after the Imperial Nipponese Navy was withdrawn from the Rhine) and Britonian convoy raiders, and cargo subs could only carry so much. Nippon's own strategic bombing campaign also caused some disruption early on, though the Commonwealth of Fuso Air Force was able to ward off Nipponese bombers with ease.

Even though the Nipponese managed to get boots on the ground in western Fuso, they were never truly able to control the territory. Resistance against the Nipponese was highly organized and extremely fierce, and the reprisals carried out against these guerrillas were especially brutal. The strategic bombing campaign against Nippon in the latter stages of the Second Great War was indeed just as much retribution for these atrocities as it was an attempt to cripple Nipponese military and industrial strength in preparation for invasion.

After the war, Fuso was able to negotiate a number of concessions from Rheinland, such as the extradition of Nipponese military and civilian officials for trial as war criminals and the transfer of several minor Nipponese territories to Fuso administration. While Fuso's government and general public at the time were satisfied with these concessions, there was still the feeling that Nippon was getting off very light in comparison to Britonia. Rheinland may not have been willing to hunt down and assassinate any remaining fugitive Britonians, but Fuso would have done so against fugitive Nipponese.

[Thanas]

After the war, Fuso was able to negotiate a number of concessions from Rheinland, such as the extradition of Nipponese military and civilian officials for trial as war criminals and the transfer of several minor Nipponese territories to Fuso administration. While Fuso's government and general public at the time were satisfied with these concessions, there was still the feeling that Nippon was getting off very light in comparison to Britonia. Rheinland may not have been willing to hunt down and assassinate any remaining fugitive Britonians, but Fuso would have done so against fugitive Nipponese.

How do you know what concessions Rheinland made? Though granted, I have no problem with that if these were disputed territories before.

As to the fugitive Nipponese, I am assuming these assassination missions did not take place* in Ostrheinland but elsewhere.


*EDIT: Place, not care. Sorry, language fail.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

How do you know what concessions Rheinland made? Though granted, I have no problem with that if these were disputed territories before.

As to the fugitive Nipponese, I am assuming these assassination missions did not take place in Ostrheinland but elsewhere.

Would Rheinland have been willing to allow the extradition of Nipponese officials to Fuso, at least? As for the territory issue, there are a lot of minor islands (minor enough that they don't show up on the world map at all) that have been shuffled between Nippon and Fuso since the Granadian colonial period.

As for the assassinations of fugitive Nipponese, Fuso would not be so foolish as to carry out such missions in Ostrheinland. San Dorado and the rest of the southern hemisphere, on the other hand, would be fair game. At least Fuso would be nice enough to request extradition first if fugitive Nipponese were found in, say, Cascadia or Shinra or Hawai'i.

[Thanas]

How do you know what concessions Rheinland made? Though granted, I have no problem with that if these were disputed territories before.

As to the fugitive Nipponese, I am assuming these assassination missions did not take place in Ostrheinland but elsewhere.

Would Rheinland have been willing to allow the extradition of Nipponese officials to Fuso, at least? As for the territory issue, there are a lot of minor islands (minor enough that they don't show up on the world map at all) that have been shuffled between Nippon and Fuso since the Granadian colonial period..

Rheinland would definitely have agreed to those things.

[Simon_Jester]

Are you joking right now?

Oh come on, after fifty-plus years of surfer culture she's too laid back to be a problem.

[Thanas]

Are you joking right now?

Oh come on, after fifty-plus years of surfer culture she's too laid back to be a problem.

No, my issue is whether she is the recognized heir by his government, meaning she claimed the throne and was recognized as valid by the Island kingdom. Meaning Hawai'i is actively supporting a foreign claim on Rheinland territory, meaning they pretty much declared war.

And I am very against people suddenly having claims on Rheinland territories.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm pretty sure he was joking, Thanas, relax.

Come on, the "they exist... unless someone uses them to present a threat in which case they never existed" line does merit a bit of fun-poking-at.

[Thanas]

Well, I just don't want to end up as the guy who gave everyone easy to use claims on his territory for narrative and historical reasons. That would end up with me feeling kinda being penalized for actually thinking about the history.

[Force Lord]

No Britonians would have found refuge in Granadia, except those with clearly valuable scientific assets. I can't piss off Rheinland too much, after all.

[Steve]

Also, isn't there a distinction between "we recognize that under the succession laws you have a claim" and "you are the rightful ruler of such and such"?

I'm going to sit down and try to finish a rough history, merging what's already been said into a coherent narrative.