The Bergdahl Controversy

[Zaune]

It’s a pretty basic tenant of the martial community that you have to be present, if not for the cause then for the person standing to your right and left. Even if you agree with the cause in lofty thought land most don't want to be in the specific circumstances they are in, in this case a lonely outpost in the middle of nowhere with zero creature comforts and an unseen enemy on all sides. Everyone wants to be somewhere else, the best way for everyone to remain as safe as possible is for everyone to overcome such thoughts and do their job.

So while it is a military wide crime, it is also a very specific personal betrayal for those close to it and one most who have served or have family who are serving can very easily sympathize with. And it’s not like anyone has the unwilling draftee thing to hide behind either. This is not some American specific concept.

To which I can only reply, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Do you really think Private Berghardi is the only US serviceman posted to Afghanistan who ever snuck out of camp without permission to go and buy some moonshine or a hooker?

[Borgholio]

Do you really think Private Berghardi is the only US serviceman posted to Afghanistan who ever snuck out of camp without permission to go and buy some moonshine or a hooker?

Well yes, because our military is full of upstanding, law-abiding and moral citizens and if you criticize them then you must be liberal scum.

Seriously, it happens all the time. One of my wife's friends spent more time high / drunk than sober when he was in Infantry. In a combat zone there are a lot of stressed soldiers who need something to help them relax or let loose. The fact that his own squad-mates are calling him a deserter implies that he actually tried to leave or did something really stupid...rather than go get some booze or a joint. Otherwise they likely wouldn't have thought much about it.

[Zaune]

I still find it hard to believe that anyone would voluntarily surrender to the Taliban.

[Borgholio]

I agree but until the investigation we may never know for sure. As I said, I find it hard to think he'd be considered a deserter unless he did something above and beyond what probably everybody does anyways at one point or another. I do find it curious that they held him hostage for so long instead of just killing him though. That definitely needs to be explained.

[Lord MJ]

The fact that his own squad-mates are calling him a deserter implies that he actually tried to leave or did something really stupid...rather than go get some booze or a joint. Otherwise they likely wouldn't have thought much about it.

I think the fact that soldiers allegedly died searching for him after he was captured, and the fact he wouldn't have been captured in the first place if he didn't go off base is playing a huge part in the ire the squad-mates have for him.

[Thanas]

I still find it hard to believe that anyone would voluntarily surrender to the Taliban.

Why?

[Zaune]

Why?

Well, for one thing I didn't even know they took prisoners until I heard about this prisoner exchange. So far as I knew, any Coalition soldier they found wounded was either left to take their chances if they were in a good mood, shot if they were in a bad mood or hauled off for some 'enhanced interrogation' and then shot if they thought he might know something useful. This is normal behaviour for insurgencies; POWs are a major logistical headache and the other side tends not to return the favour.

[Thanas]

Well, if you are dead anyway and don't want to commit suicide why not surrender?

[Block]

Well, if you are dead anyway and don't want to commit suicide why not surrender?

Cause it's usually better to die quickly from multiple gunshots than have your head hacked off after being tortured. I'm not saying they're all going to do that, but it has been known to happen to prisoners in the region.

[TheHammer]

Do you really think Private Berghardi is the only US serviceman posted to Afghanistan who ever snuck out of camp without permission to go and buy some moonshine or a hooker?

Well yes, because our military is full of upstanding, law-abiding and moral citizens and if you criticize them then you must be liberal scum.

Seriously, it happens all the time. One of my wife's friends spent more time high / drunk than sober when he was in Infantry. In a combat zone there are a lot of stressed soldiers who need something to help them relax or let loose. The fact that his own squad-mates are calling him a deserter implies that he actually tried to leave or did something really stupid...rather than go get some booze or a joint. Otherwise they likely wouldn't have thought much about it.

I think a major difference is when he left. I've read he was actually on guard duty when he disappeared. In my mind, that's different than sneaking off when his fellow soldiers weren't counting on him to watch their backs. Granted, a lot of details aren't quite clear on this.

[Zaune]

Point. Although that kind of raises the question of why he's not dead; I can only assume he keeled over from heatstroke and was found unconscious by someone unusually PR-savvy. If he was seriously wounded then he wouldn't have lasted five years in captivity and I very much doubt the US would have traded five senior guys for him if he was suspected of trying to sell information.

[Thanas]

Well, if you are dead anyway and don't want to commit suicide why not surrender?

Cause it's usually better to die quickly from multiple gunshots than have your head hacked off after being tortured. I'm not saying they're all going to do that, but it has been known to happen to prisoners in the region.

Emphasis mine.

[Zaune]

I suppose that rather depends how you define 'suicide', doesn't it?

[Thanas]

I suppose that rather depends how you define 'suicide', doesn't it?

Under what definition does "intentionally get shot" not fall under suicide?

[Block]

I guess to me it looks like suicide either way.

[eyl]

The fact that his own squad-mates are calling him a deserter implies that he actually tried to leave or did something really stupid...rather than go get some booze or a joint. Otherwise they likely wouldn't have thought much about it.

I think the fact that soldiers allegedly died searching for him after he was captured, and the fact he wouldn't have been captured in the first place if he didn't go off base is playing a huge part in the ire the squad-mates have for him.

Doesn't seem to be that clear-cut

[Zaune]

Under what definition does "intentionally get shot" not fall under suicide?

You ask a clinically depressed Catholic rap artist (whose name escapes me at present) who paid someone else to shoot him dead because he thought that was enough of a loophole to keep him out of Hell.

[Thanas]

Do I have to explain how stupid that is?

[Zaune]

I don't think it makes much sense either, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make, which is that some people are willing to go through a lot of mental gymnastics to prove to themselves that it's not really suicide if someone else actually pulls the trigger.

[Thanas]

Right, but if you weren't agreeing with it, then why pick an argument about how it matter how you define suicide?

[Zaune]

Perhaps I should rephrase myself, then. I meant to say that it depends on how the person in that situation chooses to define suicide.

And this tangent isn't remotely relevant to the topic of the thread, so I'm going to shut up about it now.

[SirNitram]

Relevent article: Rolling Stone

The entire 'controversy' can be summed up, however, as manufactured Poutrage that Obama got him back. He MUST be awful, because Obama hates the troops, etc, etc. Even if he is eventually found guilty, there's crazy shit like innocent until proven guilty. And are people seriously suggesting turning our justice system over to the Taliban to handle? No? Then they should shut up.

[mr friendly guy]

The latest insanity of Bill O'Reilly. Mr Bergdahl's dad...he looks like a MUSLIM. Oh noes.

[SirNitram]

'Cuz of the Beard. Everyone knows long beards makes you a Muslim Terrorist. Definitely. It's not like Fox was practically masturbating on air to a family of long bearded Christians who made a fortune off duck calls..

[Edi]

There is also this: Republicans will fetishize the military no end when it serves their political purposes, but turn on them as soon as they don't meekly obey conservative agendas.