Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Eh, at the very least it's useful when the underlings lack faith in your abilities. I'm sure Honor fantasizes about choking the life out of certain politicos with her kung-fu grip. It's probably very useful for blocking, being far tougher than most people's arms, not getting into some of the bonus features. I'm more surprised that for years and years Honor's had problems with her artificial face nerves, and how the one side of her face always responds a fraction of a second slower than the natural one, but Honor's got her arm up to speed whether that's not an issue or she's trained to deal with the slight hesitation.
I think what it comes down to is that she doesn't drill her facial nerves. Victor Cachat might spend hours practicing facial expressions in front of a mirror, but I'm pretty sure Honor doesn't.

She does, however, probably spend an hour a day or more if she can get away with it practicing martial arts katas.
How could I forget?! Particularly after my frustration where we never found out what her job was on the ship, only that she's the sailing master, and the RMN has been steadily eliminating the position for over a decade by OBS.
It probably involves keeping track of details of the ship's movement and impeller wedge/Warshawski sail operations, which would make it a logical position to roll into navigation and engineering. I gather there's still a dedicated nav section.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Batman »

I'd call an hour a day a lowball outside situations where she's otherwise busy with defending billions of lives from genocide or turning millions of tons of warships into so much scrap metal or some such. (And given the travel times in the Honorverse she probably would've ample time to indulge in her violent tendencies even while on duty (as we see in HaE).
And the Manticoran/Honorverse medtech advantage over the real world mitigating the side effects of overstressing your meat body by using the bionic replacements to the fullest only goes so far. They can almost inevitably fix the damage done in the process, either by quick heal, regen, or replacement. Eventually. That's not going to do you a lot of good if the guy whose head you just tore off and dislocated/broke/pick a medically probable injury your shoulder in the process turns out to have brought friends.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Ahriman238 »

The crimson icon on Ferrero's plot made absolutely no response to her youthful com officer's warning. It simply continued to flee at its maximum acceleration, which was fairly stupid, the captain reflected. Admittedly, it represented a much smaller starship, which, with equally efficient inertial compensators, ought to have enjoyed an acceleration advantage of at least thirty or forty gravities over a ship of Jessica Epps' tonnage. Unhappily for whoever commanded that icon, however, it didn't enjoy equal efficiency, because Jessica Epps mounted the very latest version of the Royal Manticoran Navy's improved compensator. The suspect vessel's actual advantage, even at the eighty percent settings which represented the RMN's normal maximum power load, was barely twenty-one gravities, less than a quarter of a KPS². If Ferrero had chosen to go to maximum military power and run the risk of compensator failure, the advantage would have lain firmly in Jessica Epps's favor.
The latest generation of compensators are so efficient, 80% power is within shouting distance of max accel for significantly smaller ships.

It appeared, however, that prudence was in somewhat short supply aboard the fleeing vessel. Either that, or its crew was on the list of convicted pirates for whom no trials—beyond the necessary establishment of their identities—would be in order, anyway. This was Silesia, after all, and Silesian governors had a bad habit of "losing" condemned pirates whom the Star Kingdom had turned over to them rather than keeping said pirates safely locked up or executing them. That was the reason the RMN had authorized its skippers to summarily execute such "escapees" if they were captured by Manticoran ships a second time. Given that interstellar law mandated the death sentence for piracy, that authorization was completely legal, and Ferrero strongly suspected that the crew in front of her knew its names were on her list somewhere.
I wonder if Honor started that little tradition or if it was already in place, since we saw her do it over her XO's objections in HAE.

"We'll give him a single warning shot," she said flatly. "Just like the rules of engagement require. After all, I suppose it's remotely possible that his com is down and no one in his entire crew knows how to fix it. But if he decides not to stop even after that hint, I want a full missile broadside right up the kilt of his wedge. No demonstration nukes, either; we'll go with laser heads."
Standard Manty ROE require a warning shot when chasing strange ships that won't talk to you, just in case the unidentified ships are having comm difficulties, a missile is the universal greeting. Apparently (later in the chapter, not quoting) this is part of numerous interstellar treaties and accords.

It didn't look like it was going to be very difficult. The ship they were pursuing massed no more than fifty thousand tons, little more than twelve percent of an Edward Saganami-class cruiser like Jessica Epps, and no hyper-capable warship could mount very much offense or defense on that limited a displacement. Of course, she wouldn't have needed a lot of armament to deal with the completely unarmed and defenseless merchies upon which she preyed, and he felt a grim satisfaction at the way the tables had been turned in this instance.
Why, she's no more than a frigate, not even twice the size of an LAC. Hardly an appetizer to a heavy cruiser.

Let's talk about the Saganami cruisers. The original Edward Saganami cruiser was the going to be the latest, most modern, most formidable cruiser-weight ship there was. It was on the drawing board when the shooting actually started, and took forever to get out of design and prototyping, just because they'd get close and then have to tack on the latest EW upgrades or the newest compensator, which meant shuffling systems around looking for a bit more space.... you get the idea. Add the automation that the class was largely a testbed for, all the new systems and soon a significant portion of BuShips worked on the Saganami project in some form. The first flight had some teething problems and they continued to come up with add-ons pretty much until the day Buttercup launched, by which time they'd actually just about used up the space left for refits and upgrades, with the last being a bow wall, and gotten the second flight out to join Eighth Fleet's screen. Still, it seemed worth the wait.

Then comes the peace, and the budget fights. The Janacek Admiralty was not interested in designing new starships, which is expensive. So Manty R&D (and probably Sonja Hemphill) came up with the idea of telling the Admiralty that they weren't really designing a new ship, they were modifying the Saganami design to incorporate the latest advances and tweaking systems to create a comprehensive whole instead of a lot of tacked-on modifications, a block upgrade. That just happened to add 35,0000 tons, several grasers, and a radically different hull-shape. Oh, and one little thing. They redid the missile launchers to fire larger 'extended time' missiles that had better range than most people's but weren't MDMs by any stretch of the imagination, and had the ability to fire off-bore like an LAC. Yep, a 180-degree firing arc, letting them fire broadsides at targets directly in front of and behind the ship. Though, they only have fire-control links to handle 18 missile salvoes to the fore or aft. They dubbed this monster a Saganami-B, while the original was naturally Saganami-A. Oversteegen's Gauntlet is one.

But wait, there's more. Around this time they're rolling out the first half-dozen of the Saganami-C class, with almost no resemblance to its predecessors beyond incorporating advances they've already made. The Saganami-Cs are the size of pre-war BCs, almost a hundred thousand tons larger than the As. The fire-control problem is dealt with, letting it unleash 40 bird salvos on anyone dumb enough to cross it. The missile launchers were also redesigned to fire MDMs, smaller cruiser-scale ones, with only two drives. The bow wall now can activate in stages, a partial mode that leaves a vulnerable seam around the edges but still lets one maneuver and accelerate and full protection with the usual cost to control. Between that and the off-bore capability, they lost the chaser missiles to add heavy grasers. Oh, and they have the latest (what are up to now, 8th gen?) Grayson-style compensators, meaning when they go all out they actually accelerate faster than LACs and even Honor's yacht from the last book.

But yeah, they're all one class. Just some tweaks here and there.

. Captains of warships of sovereign star nations didn't necessarily have to waste fulsome military punctilio on one another, but there were certain standards of courtesy. This message was little more than a curt dismissal, an instruction to get out of Hellbarde's way which did not even respond to Ferrero by name. Addressed to a warship of a navy which had so recently ratified its claim as the most powerful one within several hundred light-years, it amounted to a studied insult. Moreover, under established interstellar naval protocols, the fact that Jessica Epps was already clearly in pursuit and overhauling before Hellbarde entered the chase gave her priority in claiming the prize. As Ferrero had just observed, this was her bird, not Hellbarde's.
Protocol of chasing pirates and addressing foreign warships. Kapitan der Sterne (Star Captain, I think) Gortz proceeds to blow up the pirate anyway. How rude.

"CIC's just completed an analysis of the Andy missiles, Ma'am," Harris told her. "They were pulling ninety-one thousand gees. And they detonated over fifty thousand klicks from the target." Her eyes widened in surprise, and he nodded. "Not only that, but CIC estimates that they scored at least eighty-five percent of possible hits."

Ferrero understood immediately why CIC had passed its analysis on to Harris . . . and why Shawn had passed it on to her so quickly in turn. Those figures represented an increase of over seven percent in what ONI listed as the maximum acceleration for an Andermani shipkiller missile, and fifty thousand kilometers represented an increase of well over sixty percent in any standoff attack range the RMN had ever previously observed out of an Andy laser head, as well.

And eighty-five percent of possible is damned impressive targeting for a laser head at any range, she thought.
Andy accuracy, missile stand-off range and accel. All greater than Manticore believed they could pull off, and no guarentees there wasn't more held in reserve. And the Andies are having no problem showing Manticore that they can play in the big leagues too.

The uniform wasn't. Mercedes Brigham was a rear admiral in the Grayson Space Navy, but she was also one of the GSN's many "loaners" from the RMN, and she wore the Royal Navy's uniform this afternoon. In Manticoran service, her rank was that of a commodore, and Honor had been a little concerned over how she might feel at the notion of accepting a demotion to serve on someone else's staff. She'd known Mercedes well enough for long enough to feel fairly confident the older woman would genuinely wish for the assignment. But she'd also known her well enough to be afraid she would accept the job out of a sense of obligation and friendship whether it was really one she wanted or not.
Just how much of the Grayson Admiralty is composed of Manticoran flag officers and captains?

Like Hamish Alexander, but with even less excuse, Truman had found herself a victim of the Janacek purges. Honor's contacts within the current Admiralty were much less extensive than they'd been when Baroness Mourncreek was First Lord, but there were rumors that Alice had stepped on someone's rather senior toes when she'd been captain of HMS Minotaur. That, coupled with the fact that the Trumans had served in the Royal Navy for almost as many generations as the Alexanders had, and that they were equally fervent members of the anti-Janacek faction, had consigned Alice to half-pay and cost her confirmation of her promotion to vice admiral.

Even Sir Edward Janacek and Jeanette Draskovic had found that one just a bit difficult to rationalize away, given the fact that Rear Admiral Truman, temporarily "frocked" to the acting rank of vice admiral, had commanded Eighth Fleet's CLACs throughout the campaign which had driven the People's Republic to its knees. Not that they'd allowed that to stand in their way, and Alice's obvious and none too private disagreement with current Admiralty policies had made it easier for them to justify it—or her lack of employment, at least—on the basis of irreconcilable policy differences. Which, as Honor had fully recognized, was yet another reason for Draskovic's pettiness over the slate of officers she'd requested.
Lol, what? They really beached their carrier guru because of the tiff she had with a stodgy old admiral who passionately hated the LAC/carrier concept and consistently cheated to try and spike the program, before being proved drastically wrong? The one in which she was scrupulously careful to maintain the moral high-ground while giving the idiot enough rope to hang himself with? Are they really this dumb?

His voice was calm, but his eyes were intent, and as Honor gazed at him, she was struck by the weariness and worry hiding behind his composed exterior. And by his age, she realized abruptly. He was forty-seven T-years old, thirteen years younger than she, yet he looked older than Hamish, and she felt a sudden pang, almost a premonition of loss.

She'd felt the same thing last night, sitting at the supper table with her parents, Faith and James, and the Clinkscales when she'd realized how much frailer Lord Howard Clinkscales had become over the past few years. Now she saw the same process, if on a lesser scale, as she gazed at the Protector. Like so many of her pre-prolong Grayson friends, age was inexorably creeping up on him, and it shocked and dismayed her to realize he was already into middle age. It was a vigorous, energetic middle age, yet his dark hair was going silver and there were too many lines on his face.
That awkward disconnect between those who will live three hundred years and those who will not.

"We're not seeing any of the raw data anymore. Officially, ONI is concerned about maintaining security, and to be perfectly honest, that concern—which started the day Admiral Jurgensen arrived on the scene—has struck a lot of our intel people as fairly insulting."

Benjamin's tone was light, but Honor could taste the anger behind it and knew his intelligence people weren't the only ones who'd found the shutdown of information flow insulting.

"To the best of our knowledge," he continued, "and Admiral Jurgensen hasn't provided any evidence that our knowledge is incomplete, we've never had a breach of security where shared intelligence material was concerned. The same can't be said for ONI, where the evidence is very strong that in at least two cases information we provided them somehow ended up in Peep hands. And while Jurgensen hasn't quite come out and said so, he's made it clear enough that his real concern is the 'Peep turncoats' in our service."
The Peeps cracked Manty ONI a couple times during the war, but never Grayson. Which gives Manticore very little grounds to lecture Grayson on security. On the one hand, clearly some intelligence is being shared with Grayson by ONI. On the other hand, they don't get raw data anymore, just the sanitized summaries and conclusions.

She knew Alfredo Yu and Warner Caslet far too well to doubt for a moment that both of them had been overjoyed by the changes taking place in the Republic of Haven under Eloise Pritchart and Thomas Theisman. Both of them had known Theisman well. Indeed, in many ways, Yu had been as much Theisman's mentor and exemplar as Raoul Courvosier had been for Honor, and both he and Caslet had felt the heart-yearning to return to their homeland to share in its rebirth.

But she also knew they were the honorable men she'd just called them. They'd given their allegiance to Grayson and to the Manticoran Alliance. Indeed, Yu had been a Grayson citizen for over three T-years. The decision of whether or not to remain loyal to Grayson, even if that risked pitting them someday against the Republic once more, had not come easy for either of them, yet there'd never really been any question of how they would choose.
The "turncoats." Grayson is their home now, it's that simple.

"As I say," he continued, "our primary concern is that what we're getting from the ONI reports doesn't match what we're getting from our own sources. We realize Manticore has spent decades, or even longer, setting up its intelligence-gathering nets, whereas we're still very new to the game, but we also know exactly where our information is coming from. We don't have any way to know that where Jurgensen's synopses are concerned, and he won't tell us. The end result is that knowing our data's pedigree automatically makes it seem more reliable to us. And, frankly, the fact that so much of what we seem to be getting from ONI these days is pure fluff only aggravates that."
In this case, I trust Grayson's intelligence network better too.

"First, Silesia. Everything in the official ONI reports suggests that Emperor Gustav is still in the process of deciding what policy to pursue towards the Confederacy. At the same time, until the last month or so, ONI showed absolutely no concern about possible increases in the Andermani's naval tech base. But according to our sources in the diplomatic community, both in the Confederacy and on New Potsdam, the Emperor made his mind up months ago. Possibly as long as a full T-year ago. We can't positively confirm that, of course, but the aggressive moves they've been making and the generally more confrontational attitude of their naval forces in and around Marsh all seem to us to confirm that thesis.

"Greg's conclusion, and mine, is that the Empire has decided this is the time to push in Silesia. The Andermani haven't issued any formal demands or ultimatums to the Silesians, and they certainly haven't sent any formal communiques on the subject to Lady Descroix, but we think that's because they're still testing the waters and getting themselves positioned. Once they're satisfied the Star Kingdom won't push back—or isn't in a position to do any pushing—they'll make their demands clear enough. And they'll be prepared to use military force to support them.
Both group's ideas on what the Andies think they're doing in Silesia.

"Which brings us to our second concern about Silesia, which is the fact that we believe ONI is seriously underestimating the extent to which the Andermani have improved their naval capabilities. Our hard and fast observational data is pretty thin, but there's enough to convince us that we're looking at a major increase in their compensator efficiency, that they've made substantial improvements in the range and targeting capability of their missiles, and that they've been experimenting with their own LACs. We don't think their LAC technology, in particular, is anywhere near our own—not yet—but we can't rule out the possibility that they've been putting the LACs they do have onto carriers. The thing that makes this particularly disturbing is that we know they're fully aware of what Eighth Fleet did to the Peeps, and one thing the IAN isn't is stupid. They wouldn't be picking a fight with someone they know just kicked the Peeps' butts if they didn't think their own hardware was good enough to even the balance. And unlike us, they have a pretty good idea of exactly what kind of hardware they'd have to go up against, because their observers have seen ours in action."
Really, even clouds of mostly old-school LACs would make a half decent counter to Manticore's LAC swarms. Really, I'd assume anyone with a brain who paid attention was trying to duplicate Eighth Fleet's technologies. No one likes the idea of their own navy being reduced to target practice at the whim of some foreigners.

"I think I know where you're going with this one," Honor interrupted, "and if I'm right, I agree with you completely. You're about to say that Jurgensen's view is that the fighting has constituted a steady drain on their experienced personnel. That it's left them weaker."

"That's exactly what I was going to say," he agreed.

"Well, only an idiot—or a political admiral, if there's a difference—could think anything of the sort," Honor said roundly. "Of course they've lost some people and some ships along the way. But a lot more of their officers and crews have survived, and they've spent the last few T-years picking up experience. During the war, we managed to keep their officer corps trimmed back, for the most part, although Giscard and Tourville were turning that around before Operation Buttercup. Now, though . . ." She shrugged. "I don't know any way to quantify what it's done for them, but I'm absolutely convinced that it's improved their combat worthiness by an uncomfortably large factor, not reduced it the way Jurgensen argues that it has."
ONI's reports to Parliament have stressed the losses Theisman's been taking dealing with warlords and breakaway states, missing that he's building a new corps of officers, skilled combat veterans who fear nothing and have never faced inevitability in the form of a cloud of Manty missiles.

"We know what their tax structure is, and we've managed to come up with a ballpark figure for their total economy which we feel is probably within ten or fifteen percent of accurate. And even taking the lower limit we've been able to postulate, the revenues they say they're collecting and spending are low to the tune of several hundred billion Manticoran dollars per year. And if our higher limit is closer to correct, the discrepancy gets much, much worse."

"Several hundred billion?" Honor repeated very carefully. She tried to remember if any of the High Ridge Government's intelligence types had ever expressed any qualms about the announced budgetary figures of the new Republic to any member of Parliament. Right off the top of her head, she couldn't think of a single time they had. For that matter, she admitted, it had never occurred to her to ask them about it or to suggest that anyone run the sort of analysis Benjamin was suggesting Grayson had made.

Which, she reflected, was uncommonly stupid of me.

"At an absolute minimum," Benjamin told her. "We haven't been able to find out where the money's actually going—not with any degree of certainty, at any rate. Part of the problem is that the Republic's so large and constitutes such a huge internal market that virtually all of it could be being plowed back into the domestic economy. More to the point, so much of their economy's been so distressed for so long that it's literally impossible to single out all of the perfectly legitimate places they could be pumping funds back into it. Unfortunately, we don't think that's the case. Or, rather, we're afraid it is the case, but that we wouldn't like the place they're spending all of that money if we could confirm it."
When in doubt, follow the money. Large amounts of Haven's cashflow have been disappearing into a black hole, this makes the Graysons nervous, but not Manticore who know that the Invincible Eighth Fleet is proof against any threat.

"We don't know," Benjamin admitted, "but we have two straws in the wind, as it were. One is the existence of some top-secret project, one that was apparently launched under the Committee as much as several years before the McQueen Coup but which has been continued under Pritchart and Theisman. All we know about it for certain is its codename: 'Bolthole.' That, and the fact that Pierre and Saint-Just funneled huge amounts of money into whatever it is even at the height of the war and despite their worst financial problems. We don't have confirmation that Pritchart and Theisman have continued the same level of funding, but the discrepancy between what their revenues ought to be and what they're reporting certainly seems to suggest that some 'black project' is continuing to siphon off an awful lot of cash.
They have the name of Bolthole, and they can't help but notice that they've lost track of Shannon Foraker, who was definitely on a list of flag officers to watch closely. A link is suspected.

"No. And even if they were, it would make perfect sense for them to be looking for ways to offset our tactical advantages. In fact, they'd be derelict in their duty if they weren't looking for them."

"Absolutely. That's what has me and Greg so worried. Well, that and the fact that so far no one—including our sources—has seen a single improvement in their pre-truce hardware. It's been the better part of four T-years, Honor. Do you really think that much time could have passed without a navy which knows exactly how badly outclassed it was by Eighth Fleet introducing even one new weapon improvement?"
Again, only an idiot or someone prepared to accept Manticoran supremacy wouldn't try to duplicate or counter the technologies of Eighth Fleet. But while ONI takes the lack of evidence of new weapons as proof that Havenites (no longer Peeps) are idiots, Grayson is concerned that whatever their efforts are, they're well-hidden.

"That's the real reason Wesley and I have been continuing to push the naval budget so hard," Benjamin told her. "We're beginning to catch some fairly powerful opposition, especially in the Keys, but we're determined to go right on building up the Fleet as long as we can. The problem is that we estimate we can only keep it up for another two T-years, three at the outside. After that, we'll simply have to cut back on our building programs. We may even have to suspend them entirely."
Even the spunk of Kerbal Graysons can only go so far.

Honor nodded. Altogether too many of the Star Kingdom's politicians shared the Government's ill-concealed opinion that Benjamin's obsession with continuing to build up the Grayson Navy now that the war was 'over' was a reflection of megalomania on his part. After all, no single-planet system like Yeltsin's Star could possibly match the sort of fleet a star nation like the Star Kingdom or the Republic of Haven could build. But Benjamin hadn't seemed to realize that, and the GSN was up to a strength of very nearly a hundred ships of the wall. Not only that, virtually all of them were SD(P)s. And that didn't include the CLACs which had been built or ordered from Manticoran yards to support them. Only the vast increases in onboard automation which had been accepted in the newer designs made it possible for Grayson to man its new construction, even with all of the demobilized Manticoran naval personnel it had managed to attract and even with the scandalous, steadily increasing number of women entering the planetary work force. But she hadn't needed Benjamin to tell her that the financial strain of that continued buildup was ruinous.
Manticore was single-system until very recently, I'd remind you. And since Manticore stopped building at 64, and Haven's projects are a secret, as far as anyone knows the GSN is the most powerful navy in space, or damned close with a quarter Manticore's pre-war wall of battle, and most of them podnoughts. Certainly in the top five, allowing for Haven and the Andermani. All this in just fifteen years since their crapy piddling navy was annihilated and they had to rebuild from the ground up.

I know I harp on this a lot. But Grayson has clawed it's way into space, spent decades engaged in interstellar war with their nearest neighbors, lost countless men to the void and kept on going, charging like lemmings into space, dying so others could live until they reach this point where they stand as a major power in their own right. This is why they are, and will always be, Glorious Kerbal Graysons.

"Have you shared this information with Jurgensen?" she asked after a moment.

"We've tried to," Benjamin said bitterly. "Unfortunately, he seems to suffer from a bad case of 'not made here' where anything he doesn't want to hear about is concerned."
Who here is surprised? Nobody?

In fact, Benjamin was probably understating the Erewhonese reaction—not least because Erewhon had been forced to live under the shadow of Peep conquest for far longer than Grayson had. The fact that the Erewhonese government had elected to cut its treaty relationship with the Solarian League in order to sign on with the Manticoran Alliance had only exacerbated that anger, too. The perception had been that it had sacrificed a longstanding security arrangement with the most powerful political and economic entity in the history of the human race in order to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Manticore only to be stabbed in the back by its own treaty partners.
Yeah, they're a bit ticked off about that, having watched Haven nervously fr decades, almost signing on with the Solarian League before deciding that Manticore is more invested in this region of space and the people in it, and then HRG.

"As I say, we have no proof of it, but we've been conducting quiet, one-on-one negotiations with several of the Alliance's smaller members." She regarded him intently, and he shrugged with a curious mixture of apology and irritation. "No one's interested in sneaking around behind the Star Kingdom's back, Honor. Not really. But let's face it. Thanks to High Ridge's idiotic foreign policy, the Alliance is in serious disarray at the moment, and we've been doing our best to try to put out the various fires before they get entirely out of hand and bring the entire structure down."

"I see." Honor understood exactly what he meant, and she felt a dull throb of shame at the thought of how hard Benjamin had obviously been working to preserve the vital alliances High Ridge equally obviously never wasted a single night's sleep worrying about.

"At any rate," Benjamin went on after a moment, "some of the things the Erewhonese ambassador's said in those discussions sound a lot more like the sort of temporizing and qualifying that usually go on between states that don't entirely trust one another—or who have something to hide—than the way allies are supposed to speak to each other. I don't think it's his idea, either. I think he's acting on formal instructions from his government, and that makes me wonder just why they're holding not just the Star Kingdom but all of us at arm's length. And one possibility which suggests itself to me is that they might be considering jumping the other way."
Grayson intelligence and the Protector also smell a rat in Erewhon, because of all the running around sticking their fingers in dykes they've had to do to keep the Manticoran Alliance running after Manticore decided on a policy of "screw you all. I got mine."

"My God, but I hope you're wrong!" Honor said fervently after two or three heartbeats. "After Grayson, Erewhon has the largest navy in the Alliance."

"And access to all of our new hardware," Benjamin pointed out grimly. Honor inhaled sharply, and he shrugged. "Their industrial base isn't as good as ours is because it was never as completely modernized and overhauled as ours was. But at the very least, they have examples of everything short of Ghost Rider—and some of that technology, too, I think. And if the Peeps get a chance to reverse engineer that . . ."
Erewhon has the third largest navy, which we knew. They're pretty much the only ones outside Grayson and Manticore in the Alliance with capital ships of their own, albeit mostly of Solly make. They contributed a couple dreadnought squadrons to Eighth Fleet, and have been buying up older Manty SDs the Admiralty was going to mothball or scrap. Grayson has been doing this last bit too, at salvage prices.

"I'm not going to send a naval detachment to serve under a Manticoran admiral on an RMN naval station, Honor. I'm going to send the Protector's Own on its first major interstellar deployment and training cruise under the direct supervision of its permanent commander, Steadholder Harrington."

"You're out of your mind! Even if that sort of legal fiction was going to do you a bit of good when the Opposition gets hold of this in the Keys, think about the possible consequences. If it does come to a shooting situation with the Andies, then you're going to get Grayson involved in it right alongside the Star Kingdom. And I can tell you that the IAN's always been a much tougher proposition than the Peep Navy ever was!"
The Protector's Own is being sent on an extended deep-space drill near Honor's new command area, just in case.

"Baron High Ridge is an idiot, Honor. You and I both know it, just as we both know he's so obsessed with domestic political maneuvering that he's almost completely oblivious to the potential interstellar disaster we both think he's courting. But the Star Kingdom is still our natural ally, and if the worst happens, Manticore's going to find itself under different management very quickly. If the Star Kingdom goes to war, whether it's with the Andies or the Havenites, we have no realistic choice but to support it, because without the Star Kingdom, Grayson and every other member of the Manticoran Alliance become the natural targets of any aggressor. Which means that I find myself in the unenviable position of being forced to watch High Ridge's and Janacek's backs when they're too stupid to even realize they need watching!"
Irony, the Opposition on Grayson is correct and the alliance with Manticore has really become an anchor around Grayson's neck. They simply have no choice but to follow through though, and they know there is much good in Manticore even if the present government consists of myopic, parochial, and corrupt polticos who display shocking incompetence in all manners not related to dirty domestic dealings. Speaking of...

"Well," Wix said with an air of calm, "I can't be certain of course, but unless I'm sadly mistaken, that last data run from Admiral Haynesworth's people just nailed down the entry vector."

"What?!" Kare was out of his chair and standing at Wix's shoulder, peering down at his display, without any conscious memory of having moved. "That's preposterous! There's no way! We don't even have a definitive locus yet—how the hell could we have an entry vector?"
The one unambiguously good thing to come of the High Ridge administration, the fluff project he created to embezzle from has actually found the seventh wormhole of the Manticoran Junction.

"Certainly not!" Elaine Descroix seconded enthusiastically. "This is the greatest discovery in decades—no, centuries! The Junction's been the biggest single factor in the Star Kingdom's prosperity; if its capacity increases, it will be the biggest boost our economy's had in almost a hundred T-years. And it's an agency we created which found a new terminus to make that possible."
And naturally they're going to milk that for all it's worth. Fits nicely with the 'building the peace' slogan.

"The latest from Admiral Chakrabarti's office is that we're going to have to leave one of our squadrons of Medusas here with Home Fleet. They're going to give us two squadrons of the pre-pod types, instead. And according to my sources, at least two of the non-pod ships are going to be dreadnoughts, not superdreadnoughts."

"Only two squadrons?" Mercedes Brigham demanded, and turned to face Honor. "I know you warned me they were being tight about turning tonnage loose, Your Grace, but that's ridiculous! There's no way two squadrons of pre-pod ships equate to a single squadron of SD(P)s!"

-snip-

If the new force levels held up, the Admiralty would be giving her task force only one squadron of SD(P)s. Admittedly, there would be eighteen older-style superdreadnoughts—or dreadnoughts, if Andrea is right, she corrected herself—to back them, plus the two weak battle squadrons already on station under Admiral Hewitt. And it was also true that six of the new ships ought to be capable of destroying an entire fleet of the older types all by themselves, but it still seemed like a foolhardy move.
Task Force 34, Honor's reinforcements to Sidemore, is getting cut down to size.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:But wait, there's more. Around this time they're rolling out the first half-dozen of the Saganami-C class, with almost no resemblance to its predecessors beyond incorporating advances they've already made. The Saganami-Cs are the size of pre-war BCs, almost a hundred thousand tons larger than the As...
Actually no, still not up to battlecruiser tonnage. But getting there. The Saganami-C is still lighter than the Mars-class, as I recall, though.
Andy accuracy, missile stand-off range and accel. All greater than Manticore believed they could pull off, and no guarentees there wasn't more held in reserve. And the Andies are having no problem showing Manticore that they can play in the big leagues too.
For that matter, I can't recall anyone ever referencing such high standoff ranges anywhere before.

Weber mumbles a bit about lasing rods on the missiles being upgraded in the 1920-vintage Manticoran missiles to make them harder-hitting; from this it sounds like the Andermani may be way ahead of them on that idea.
Really, even clouds of mostly old-school LACs would make a half decent counter to Manticore's LAC swarms. Really, I'd assume anyone with a brain who paid attention was trying to duplicate Eighth Fleet's technologies. No one likes the idea of their own navy being reduced to target practice at the whim of some foreigners.
True. Of course, the really hard part to duplicate are the autonomous Ghost Rider drones (powering them is a bear if you don't have Manticoran fusion plants), and the multiple-drive missile. The LACs aren't that big a deal.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by VhenRa »

Hell, isn't the first model of the new gen Havenite LACs basically just that, an old style LAC (tech-wise anyway) designed around the same short duration fleet escort role as the Shrike/Ferret?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

More or less, yes. The Havenite Cimeterre doesn't really even try to be an effective antiship combatant, it's armed primarily to fight other LACs, with a sideorder of "defend the battleline against Manticore Missile Massacres by thinning out the incoming salvoes."
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Batman »

The Shrikes/Ferrets weren't designed to be fleet escorts, they were designed to be shipkillers (What's the use of that humongous graser on the Shrike for missile defense?). The 'using LACs to thicken antimissile defense' didn't happen (on the Manticoran side at least) until the advent of the (Grayson designed) Katana.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Terralthra »

Shrikes and Ferrets aren't Havenite LACs, though. The whole point is that Manticore builds this hellacious LAC that can actually destroy disproportionate mass of "real" combat ships. Rather than try to equal their tech, Haven builds the best old-style LAC they can, the Cimeterre, whose sole purpose is defending against RMN LAC swarms. They can blunt the sharp edge and keep the Shrikes off of the wall and screen.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Batman »

True. I suspect I equated 'fleet escort' with 'thickening the fleet's missile defense' when 'kill as many of the enemy's LACs as you can' fits the bill too.
Doesn't change the fact that the Shrikes/Ferrets weren't designed as escorts, they were offensive weapons.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Simon_Jester wrote:More or less, yes. The Havenite Cimeterre doesn't really even try to be an effective antiship combatant, it's armed primarily to fight other LACs, with a sideorder of "defend the battleline against Manticore Missile Massacres by thinning out the incoming salvoes."
Batman wrote:The Shrikes/Ferrets weren't designed to be fleet escorts, they were designed to be shipkillers (What's the use of that humongous graser on the Shrike for missile defense?). The 'using LACs to thicken antimissile defense' didn't happen (on the Manticoran side at least) until the advent of the (Grayson designed) Katana.
Pardon me, Bats, but did I say Haven Missile Massacre? No, no I did not.
Batman wrote:True. I suspect I equated 'fleet escort' with 'thickening the fleet's missile defense' when 'kill as many of the enemy's LACs as you can' fits the bill too.
Yeah, but the Cimeterre does thicken missile defense in addition to escorting the fleet against enemy LACs.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Ahriman238 »

In fairness, the Cimeterres are a radical redesign, as I'll shortly cover, even if a lot of it is treading ground Manticore's already walked. For instance, traditionally LACs are systems-patrol craft, cruising around the hyper-limit to free up hyper-capable ships, thus they spend a lot of mass on reactor mass and life support to give them a couple month's endurance. Carrier LACs on both sides of the fence are designed for four days tops.

And they'll get a lot better as Haven's tech-base improves.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by VhenRa »

Ahriman238 wrote:In fairness, the Cimeterres are a radical redesign, as I'll shortly cover, even if a lot of it is treading ground Manticore's already walked. For instance, traditionally LACs are systems-patrol craft, cruising around the hyper-limit to free up hyper-capable ships, thus they spend a lot of mass on reactor mass and life support to give them a couple month's endurance. Carrier LACs on both sides of the fence are designed for four days tops.

And they'll get a lot better as Haven's tech-base improves.
Fairly sure the endurance on a Shrike is more a matter of food, water, TP and maintenance. It's reactor is good for something like 8 months IIRC.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by eyl »

VhenRa wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:In fairness, the Cimeterres are a radical redesign, as I'll shortly cover, even if a lot of it is treading ground Manticore's already walked. For instance, traditionally LACs are systems-patrol craft, cruising around the hyper-limit to free up hyper-capable ships, thus they spend a lot of mass on reactor mass and life support to give them a couple month's endurance. Carrier LACs on both sides of the fence are designed for four days tops.

And they'll get a lot better as Haven's tech-base improves.
Fairly sure the endurance on a Shrike is more a matter of food, water, TP and maintenance. It's reactor is good for something like 8 months IIRC.
18, but that's using a fission pile, which the Havenite LACs probably don't .
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by VhenRa »

eyl wrote:
VhenRa wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:In fairness, the Cimeterres are a radical redesign, as I'll shortly cover, even if a lot of it is treading ground Manticore's already walked. For instance, traditionally LACs are systems-patrol craft, cruising around the hyper-limit to free up hyper-capable ships, thus they spend a lot of mass on reactor mass and life support to give them a couple month's endurance. Carrier LACs on both sides of the fence are designed for four days tops.

And they'll get a lot better as Haven's tech-base improves.
Fairly sure the endurance on a Shrike is more a matter of food, water, TP and maintenance. It's reactor is good for something like 8 months IIRC.
18, but that's using a fission pile, which the Havenite LACs probably don't .
Not the Cimeterre Mark I. The -Alpha and -Beta after Erewhon switches sides were fitted with fission piles. Alpha fitted a spinal laser (nowhere near as powerful as the Shrike's spinal graser) and bow-walls (and lost most/all of it's missile load) while the Beta was just the original with fission pile and bow-wall.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Dominus Atheos »

What you just said makes no sense.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Ahriman238 »

No, he is correct in that (some time down the line) after getting a lot of the hardware that made Anzio possible, Haven will produce Cimeterre A and B variants that effectively are Shrikes and Ferrets.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Nephtys »

Note that even with a fission pile, they'll still need remass for their maneuvering drives, as Impellers do not adjust their ship's orientation. Presumably they've cut down on a lot of that, given that they don't need a fusion plant of course.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Flipping the ship end for end requires trivial amounts of reaction mass.

There is also reference to "wedge torque" in the tech manual, which suggests that the wedge is in fact involved in turns.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Crazedwraith »

I was going to say. I don't remember reading anything about the wedge not being able the manoeuvre ships. I thought they just had chemical thrusters for moving without the wedge. Like docking with space stations and other times you can't have your wedge up without it doing bad things to other objects
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Ahriman238 »

On the other hand, no one on the other side (we hope, she amended dutifully) had any reason to suspect that the Republican Navy had finally managed to crack the secret of the Royal Manticoran Navy's faster than light communications capability. Actually, the RHN had known roughly what the Manties were doing for years; they just hadn't known how to do it themselves. Until now.

To be honest, Foraker's techs had needed a bit of a leg up from the Solarian League firms which had been trading military technology to Rob Pierre's People's Republic in return for combat reports and the largest payments the cash-starved Committee had been able to scrape up. But it had been a very small leg up, and Foraker felt a deep, uncomplicated sense of pride in the way her own R&D people had picked it up and run with it.
Haven has had to deal with the realities of FTL comm, like the compensators, for years. Finally they have managed to duplicate the transmitters.

The power requirements and mass costs of the RHN's current grav-pulse transmitters were far too high to permit it to employ the remote drones the RMN and its allies could deploy. The Manties were considerably ahead in super-dense fusion bottle technology and several other areas—including the newest generation of superconductor capacitor systems—and Haven was unable to match the onboard power levels of their remote platforms. But even without that, the sheer size of the early-generation RHN hardware would have made it impossible to squeeze it into such tight quarters. Indeed, it could be fitted into nothing smaller than a LAC. And, as Foraker strongly suspected had been the case for the Manties when they first developed the system themselves, any LAC or starship had to temporarily cut its acceleration to zero in order to transmit a message. Coupled with the slow pulse repetition frequency rate they'd so far managed to achieve, that limited them to very short and simple messages or to the use of preplanned ones which could be transmitted in shorthand code groups.
Limitations of Haven FTL comm, they're still too big and power hungry to fit in a recon platform, has the old pulse-rate, and the transmitting ship/LAC has to cut drives to transmit. Manticore has considerable superiority in miniaturized fusion plants and superconductors. Both were pet projects of Sonja Hemphill's for decades because she saw them as stepping stones to LAC swarms, and the rest of the Admiralty didn't object after they proved so useful in the first FTL comms.

The point which was reached as the Republican missiles reached the ends of their runs while still almost forty thousand kilometers short of the Manticoran vessels and the first echelon detonated.

They had no standoff attack range against spacecraft, because they weren't laser heads. Nor were they standard nuclear warheads in any usual sense of the word. And they didn't carry any of the sophisticated and devilishly capable electronic warfare systems the Manticorans had produced, either, because much though it galled Shannon Foraker to admit it, it would be years—probably decades—before the Republic of Haven was able to match the technical competence of the Star Kingdom of Manticore. So as Commander Clapp had suggested to her over two T-years ago, the only practical solution was to find a way around the Manties' technological advantage.

-snip-

Like the missiles which suddenly detonated long before any Manticoran would have expected them to. Missiles which contained absolutely no seeking systems, no penetration aides, no standoff laser heads—only the biggest, nastiest, dirtiest nuclear warheads Mitchell Clapp or anyone he could recruit had been able to design. Those warheads weren't designed to destroy enemy LACs; they were designed to strip away the enemy's EW advantages, and it was evident from the plot that they'd done just that.

The brutal wavefronts of plasma and radiation lashed out from the tsunami of missiles. No one had adopted such a brute force application to clearing away decoys and jammers in centuries. Even after the missile pod had reemerged, with its vulnerability to proximity "soft kills," no one had ever attempted to apply the same technique to electronic warfare drones and remote platforms. But that was because of the ranges at which deep space engagements were fought, and the dispersal which warships with impeller wedges hundreds of kilometers across were forced to maintain. Neither of those factors applied to the overgrown pinnaces Clapp had designed. The Cimeterre, even more than its Manticoran counterparts, was designed to get in close. It was a knife-fighter, not a sniper, and it eschewed sophistication and finesse for up close and personal, bare-knuckle, eye-gouging combat.

The initial detonations ripped a thermonuclear hole straight through the electronic shield which had sheltered the Manticoran LACs, and a second echelon of the same massive salvo raced through the opening. Its birds detonated ten thousand kilometers closer to the Manties, ripping the hole even deeper and wider, and the next echelon exploited the opening the second had created. The third echelon closed to within as little as two or three thousand kilometers of the Manticoran LACs before it detonated in a final wavefront of blast, heat, and hard radiation.
Ziska, the "Triple Ripple." Have three salvos of super-dirty nukes detonate in sequence to blanket the area with EMP and noise. A brute force counter to the ECM edge of Ghost Rider that is almost elegant in it's simplicity. Sure, it's exactly the sort of trick that's not going to work on the Manties more than a few times, but the first few times are going to be devastating.

Mitchell Clapp had begun his own design process by going back to a blank piece of paper. Rather than designing a starship in miniature, he'd seen it as an opportunity to design a pinnace on the macro scale. He'd ruthlessly stripped out everything that wasn't absolutely essential to the combat role as he visualized it, and along the way he'd discovered it was possible to save a truly amazing amount of tonnage.

He'd started out by accepting a life support endurance of only ninety-six hours rather than the weeks and months which most LAC designers insisted upon. Next, he'd eliminated all energy armament, aside from an extremely austere outfit of point defense laser clusters. It was pretty clear to NavInt that the Manties had adopted radical innovations to provide the energy supply their new LACs required. Those EW systems had to be energy hogs, and the humongous graser they'd wrapped at least one of their LAC classes around was even worse. NavInt's best current guess was that they'd gone to some sort of advanced fission plant with enormously improved and/or enlarged superconductor capacitor rings to manage their energy budget. They'd also done something distinctly unnatural with their beta nodes to produce impeller wedges of such power without completely unacceptable tonnage demands. Again, all of those were things Haven would be unable to match for years to come, but by ruthlessly suppressing the energy armament and accepting such a vast decrease in life support—and by eliminating over half of the triple-redundancy damage control and repair systems routinely designed into "real" warships—Clapp had managed to produce a LAC hull which came amazingly close to matching the performance of the Manties' designs. Its less efficient inertial compensator meant its maximum acceleration rate was more sluggish, but it was actually a bit more nimble and maneuverable than the observational data suggested the Manty LACs were.
Cimeterres and Mitchell Clapp, the man who designed them, just because I feel the need to remind people every so often that each side's R&D efforts do not consist solely of Shannon FOraker and Sonja Hemphill.

Of course, it had also been effectively unarmed compared to the Manticoran designs, but that was the point at which Clapp had recruited others to his project. In the absence of energy weapons, the Cimeterre carried a pure missile armament, and the R&D teams had made enormous advances in marrying reverse-engineered Solarian technology with their own indigenous design concepts. The missiles they'd come up with, like the LACs which would carry them, weren't up to Manticoran standards, but they were much, much better than anything any previous Havenite LAC had ever boasted. Unless NavInt was entirely wrong about the performance parameters of the Manticoran weapons, the Cimeterre's birds could approximately match their range and acceleration in a package which was only a very little larger. Once again, sacrifices had had to be made to cram that performance into something the Republic could produce, and in this instance that something had been the sophisticated seeking systems and penetration aids built into the Manticoran missiles. But when Clapp and his colleagues were done, they'd produced a ship which was faster on the helm, had almost as good an acceleration rate, and was armed with weapons which were almost as long-ranged as anything the Manticorans had yet demonstrated.

And because Clapp had been so ruthless in suppressing every single system which wasn't absolutely essential to the Cimeterre's mission as he visualized it, each LAC could cram a truly amazing number of missiles into its sophisticated rotary-magazine launchers.
No energy weapons, but they have very deep missile magazines, far more so than Shrikes.

"And," she went on more somberly, "you're quite right—our relative losses will go up steeply when that happens. But the entire point of your operational concept is that since we can't match their ability to kill starships with LACs, the best we can hope to do is to impose attritional losses on them. To neutralize their anti-shipping strike capability because we don't have the tech base to create a matching capability of our own. And that, Mitchell, is precisely what you've accomplished here. It isn't pretty, and it isn't elegant, but it is something more important than either of those things—it works."
Priorities for the Cimeterre project.

"God knows we've been negotiating about it with them long enough! Besides, according to the latest estimate I've seen, some of those systems' economies are beginning to turn around already. Oh, sure—they'd do even better participating in our own economic turnaround. And don't think for a minute that the people who live in them wouldn't prefer that to being no more than wage-earners in what are essentially Manty-owned enterprises and investments. But their economies are beginning to generate a positive cash flow—for the Manties, at least, if not the people the Manties stole them from. And if the Manties turn the occupied systems into still more money-makers, then there goes your argument for why they'd want to give them back."
The Manty-occupied Haven worlds are recovering economically and showing a profit, making it easier to convince people that Manticore will never cede these planets back. It's a thorny issue, we know there are, at a minimum, two or three worlds that welcomed Manticore as liberators from the rule Haven imposed, but Haven has controlled some of these planets for over fifty years. You could try a plebiscite, but who runs it and how could one side or the other trust them to?

"And don't forget the military considerations," Senator Jason Giancola put in sharply. "They seized those systems in the first place to use as jumping off points for operations deeper in the Republic. So I can see at least one reason for them to want to hang onto them that has nothing at all to do with their economies."
And there's that. It's not like Manticore or Haven are going to trust each other not to tart the shooting war again for a while.

"Eloise Pritchart is the President, after all. Under the Constitution, that means her one vote outnumbers all the rest of the Cabinet combined. And even if it didn't, do you really want to risk pissing off Thomas Theisman?"

"If he were a Pierre or a Saint-Just, I wouldn't," Giancola said frankly. "But he's not. He really is obsessed with restoring 'the rule of law.' If he weren't, he never would have brought in Pritchart in the first place."

"And if he thinks you're challenging the 'rule of law,' you're likely to get a chance to exchange personal notes with Oscar Saint-Just," McGwire said dryly.

"Not as long as I do whatever I do from within the framework of the Constitution," Giancola disagreed. "As long as I do that, he can't take direct action against me without violating due process himself, and he won't do that. It would be like strangling his own child."
Don't you just hate it when the bad guys realize you have principles?

"Well, it just happens that there might be a slight difference of opinion as to whether or not a President can dismiss a Cabinet-level minister on a whim."

"That's ridiculous," McGwire said flatly. "Oh, I agree it might be convenient if she couldn't," he continued in a slightly placating tone as Giancola frowned at him. "But the precedents under the old Constitution were clear enough, Arnold. Cabinet ministers serve at the pleasure of the President, and she has the right to dismiss any of them whenever she chooses."

"That may not be entirely true," Jason Giancola put in. "Or, rather, it may have been true under the old Constitution without being true under the new one."

"But the new Constitution is the old one," McGwire said.

"Mostly," the older Giancola said, taking over control of the conversation once more. "But if you go back and read the minutes of the Constitutional Convention, and then take a close look at the exact language of the resolution readopting the pre-Legislaturalist Constitution, you'll find that the second clause of subsection three specifies that 'all acts, laws, resolutions, and executive decisions and/or decrees made to reimplement this Constitution shall be subject to the consideration and approval of this Convention and of the Congress which shall succeed it.' "

"So what?" McGwire's puzzlement was apparent.

"So arguably, Pritchart's selection of the members of her first Cabinet—the Cabinet under whose direction the Constitution's been officially put back on-line—would come under the heading of 'executive decisions and/or decrees made to reimplement this Constitution.' In which case, of course, the entire Congress would have the legal right and responsibility to approve any changes she might unilaterally decide to make. Especially a change which would replace the individual charged with heading the interim administration of the state if something happened to her."
The constitutionality of the President dismissing a cabinet member. Effectively, Haven's Congress needs to rubberstamp every new/old right Prichart invokes under the Constitution, including dismissing a cabinet member. Which means Giancola could turn a move to dismiss him into a lengthy partisan battle in Congress and for the moment it's simply not worth it to get rid of him.

"Is there some particular reason why the need to present the possibility of such an energetic policy should arise at this time?" he asked pleasantly.

"There may be." Giancola tipped his own chair forward, and his expression was no longer bland as the keen, ambitious brain behind his eyes dropped its mask. "The situation in Silesia is unraveling on the Manties. I don't think they even begin to realize just how true that is, either. Of course, they don't know that the Imperial Foreign Service has formally inquired as to exactly what the Republic's position would be should the Empire seek certain border adjustments in the Confederacy."
Even Haven knows the Andies are serious about expanding into Silesia, but the HRG remains in their happy little bubble, undisturbed by reality. That said, Giancola takes it upon himself to say Haven has no interests in Silesia and no objections if the Andies do, and saw fit not to inform the President of this conversation.

"According to the Naval Affairs Committee's last briefing, they're dispatching at least five squadrons of ships of the wall, plus at least one carrier squadron. Of course, that information is bound to be out of date, since the dispatch boat took the better part of two weeks to get here from Trevor's Star. Actually, if they stuck to their original schedule, they should have already sent them on their way, although NavInt says they seem to be running a bit behind on their timetable. But even if it's taking them a while to get organized, that's still a fairly substantial force. And they've put Harrington in command of it."

"Harrington, eh?" McGwire looked thoughtful.

"Exactly. Everyone knows she and High Ridge aren't exactly bosom buddies," the Secretary of State said. "But even he has to know she's one of the best naval officers they've got. The fact that they're prepared to send over thirty additional ships of the wall all the way to Silesia and put them under the command of someone like her suggests that they're prepared to take a rather firm line with the Andermani."
How Honor's mission looks from the outside.

It wasn't the usual route for deploying to Silesia.

Under normal circumstances, a Manticoran task force making transit to the Confederacy would have gone out by way of the Manticoran Wormhole Junction's Gregor terminus. But Gregor was an Andermani star system located in the very heart of the Empire. The Star Kingdom might hold title to the terminus itself, along with the legally recognized right to fortify the area around it and to maintain a fleet base orbiting the system's secondary component, but it was the Empire who held sovereignty over the rest of it.
As seen a few books ago, most Manty merchant traffic through Silesia takes the Junction to Gregor in the Andermani Empire, flies into Silesia before returning via Basilisk. Most pirate-hunting expeditions go the same way with the merchies. In this case, Honor is trying to not incite the Andies and wants more time to drill crews and especially the LACs, so she's heading to Sidemore via Basilisk even if it adds a few weeks to the trip.

It's absolutely ridiculous for the Queen's Navy to have gotten so . . . out of shape in barely four T-years. I suppose this is what Hamish meant when he started talking about "victory disease." But I know darned well that it never would have happened if Baroness Mourncreek were still First Lord and Sir Thomas were still First Space Lord.

But that was the real crux of the matter, when she came right down to it. Any military organization had a pronounced tendency to take its direction from the attitudes of its senior commanders, and the complacency and arrogance of the political admirals currently running the Admiralty were reflected among an unfortunately large and growing proportion of the Navy's officers. The manpower reductions mandated as part of the build down had been disproportionately concentrated among experienced personnel, particularly in the senior noncom and enlisted grades, which helped explain some of the problem, but it certainly didn't excuse it. Total numerical reductions in the regular officer corps had been lower than anywhere else, since the first priority had been to release reservist officers back to the merchant marine and civilian economy. That had actually increased the proportion of active-duty officers who were Academy graduates, but all too many of the better regulars had become so disgusted with the Janacek Admiralty that they had voluntarily gone on half-pay status and followed their reserve fellows into merchant service. The ones who remained were all too often the ones who found the current Admiralty attitude a comfortable fit. Which didn't say anything good about their own training and readiness attitudes.

It wasn't anything overt enough for the officers who hadn't been affected to effectively combat. It was just . . . sloppiness. It was the Navy's smugly comfortable belief in its own God-given superiority to anyone who might be foolish enough to cross swords with it. The belief that the inherent supremacy of the RMN would suffice to crush any opponent . . . which made the unrelenting drills and training exercises which had always been so much a part of the Royal Navy seem superfluous.
Sad state of the present navy, which has ejected more and more of the men, women and traditions that made it great in favor of cronyism.

The inexperience of the LAC crews which had been assigned to Alice Truman's CLACs was one thing. The huge expansion in LACs which the Janacek Admiralty had undertaken as its low-cost answer to rear area security had spread the surviving combat-experienced LAC crews all too thin, and the LAC groups had taken their own losses of experienced personnel. The vast majority of her own LAC crews had been assigned to their present duties only after the truce had brought active operations to a close, which certainly explained their rough edges. Whether or not it justified them was another matter entirely. The people who'd trained them had had access to all of the after-action reports of the COLACs who'd actually led the Shrikes and Ferrets in combat. They'd also had Truman's original training syllabus and notes to draw upon. But no one would have guessed that from the initial performance of the LAC groups of green, inexperienced crews Honor had been assigned for Sidemore Station.

Yet however understandable her LACs deficiencies might be, her battle squadrons weren't a lot better, and with far less excuse. The same complacency and lack of attention to routine training had spread its subtle malaise through the ships of the wall, as well. Especially the older, pre-pod classes. Those ships were almost universally regarded as obsolescent, at best, and even the personnel assigned to them seemed to have come to regard them as secondary units. As little more than backup for the SD(P)s.
How things change, those wallers used to be the place to go for glory and promotion. Inexperience and "victory-disease" in the wallers and LAC squadrons.

Of all the people in the dining compartment, Wraith Goodrick had the most intensely personal bone to pick with the Mesan slavers, because his mother had been genetically designed and sold like so much animate property. She'd been consigned to one of the notorious "pleasure resorts" whose whispered existence was an open secret, however well hidden they might be, and she'd escaped that fate only because she'd been loaded as cargo aboard a freighter which had enjoyed the unhappy experience of straying into the arms of an RMN light cruiser. Which was how she'd come to be emancipated in the Star Kingdom and why Goodrick had imbibed his searing hatred of all things Mesan literally at his mother's breast.

Which, in turn, explained his almost religious experience when Honor and Andrea Jaruwalski explained Operation Wilberforce to Task Force Thirty-Four's senior officers once they were en route to Marsh.
Operation Wilberforce. Honoe has a copy of the Manpower Incident client lists for Silesia, that she obtained through the mysterious faculties flag officers have (she asked Anton Zilwicki) and included on that list are numerous high-ranking Silly officers and planetary/regional governors as clients or people who take their bribes and look the other way. True, Honor as a foreign national can't directly go after most of the list, but she knows what systems to watch for slavers and ship and freight line names to watch out for. She intends to make the best possible use of that information, as long as she's in the neighborhood. Which is probably not something the HRG envisioned when they sent her out.

"'Suddenly appeared'?" Tremaine repeated, and Harkness nodded.

"His exact words, Skip. Now, I know the Sillies' sensors aren't worth a hell of a lot, and I know their sensor techs aren't usually up to our standards, or even the Peeps'. But from his report, this bird runs a mighty taut ship for a Silesian, and he was real careful to emphasize that none of his people got so much as a sniff of the Andies until all three dropped their stealth and opened fire."

"What was the range?" Tremaine asked intently.

"That's what bothered me the most," Harkness admitted. "It looked to the guy writing the report like the pirates never saw the Andies at all, but those bastards tend to be even slacker than most Confed navy crews, so that don't necessarily prove a thing. But the Silly cruiser was only about four light-minutes from the nearest Andy ship when she opened fire, and she hadn't seen a damned thing, either."
A Grayson intelligence report of Silly officer stumbling onto the Andies as they waxed a pirate with amazing stealth systems.
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Ahriman238
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Ahriman238 »

Crazedwraith wrote:I was going to say. I don't remember reading anything about the wedge not being able the manoeuvre ships. I thought they just had chemical thrusters for moving without the wedge. Like docking with space stations and other times you can't have your wedge up without it doing bad things to other objects
Yes, but it's also especially pointed for LACs, which use thrusters to maneuver when the bow or stern walls are up, because when that happens they lose the ability to accelerate or turn using the wedge.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Like the missiles which suddenly detonated long before any Manticoran would have expected them to. Missiles which contained absolutely no seeking systems, no penetration aides, no standoff laser heads—only the biggest, nastiest, dirtiest nuclear warheads Mitchell Clapp or anyone he could recruit had been able to design. Those warheads weren't designed to destroy enemy LACs; they were designed to strip away the enemy's EW advantages, and it was evident from the plot that they'd done just that.
Given the size of an Honorverse missile I wouldn't be surprised if those were warheads up in the hundreds of megatons, maybe even pushing up towards single digit gigatons.
Ziska, the "Triple Ripple." Have three salvos of super-dirty nukes detonate in sequence to blanket the area with EMP and noise. A brute force counter to the ECM edge of Ghost Rider that is almost elegant in it's simplicity. Sure, it's exactly the sort of trick that's not going to work on the Manties more than a few times, but the first few times are going to be devastating.
Although the EMP part really shouldn't work in outer space... :D
How things change, those wallers used to be the place to go for glory and promotion. Inexperience and "victory-disease" in the wallers and LAC squadrons.
Which will probably cost the RMN dearly during Thunderbolt. They're relying on the LACs to defend captured Havenite systems, but the LACs themselves are a far cry from the effective, highly drilled force used by Eighth Fleet.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Ahriman238 »

Megaton at least. At some point something similar to "the Manticorans weren't ready for it, nor could they be. No one had ever experienced so many megatons in such a tiny space." is said.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by Simon_Jester »

Put this way: a nine megaton warhead in a missile the size of a Titan II is not a surprise because that's what the Titan II carried historically. A Titan II is thirty meters long, three meters wide, and (fully fueled) weighs 154 tons.

Now check this image.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Missil ... arison.jpg

Allowing for the Great Resizing, which cut the length, width, and depth of all objects by a factor of about two, we expect a "Ghost Rider missile" (translation, an MDM) to be fifteen meters long and about... roughly two meters wide. The weight of such missiles is somewhere around one hundred tons.

So this is at least vaguely consistent with the scale of the Titan II, bearing in mind that an Honorverse missile contains a lot more dense metal machinery and a lot less low-density rocket fuel.

Engineering a ten-megaton warhead onto a missile fifteen meters long and two meters wide would probably be an achievable challenge today using turn-of-the-millenium technology. By contrast, a hundred megaton warhead would probably require either a physically bigger missile (as in, larger in diameter) or some technique for making nuclear weapons vastly more efficient than they are now.

The current state of the art is around five kilotons of yield per kilogram of nuclear bomb; note that this is per kilogram of bomb, not per kilogram of fissile material.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington III

Post by VhenRa »

Simon_Jester wrote:Put this way: a nine megaton warhead in a missile the size of a Titan II is not a surprise because that's what the Titan II carried historically. A Titan II is thirty meters long, three meters wide, and (fully fueled) weighs 154 tons.

Now check this image.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Missil ... arison.jpg

Allowing for the Great Resizing, which cut the length, width, and depth of all objects by a factor of about two, we expect a "Ghost Rider missile" (translation, an MDM) to be fifteen meters long and about... roughly two meters wide. The weight of such missiles is somewhere around one hundred tons.

So this is at least vaguely consistent with the scale of the Titan II, bearing in mind that an Honorverse missile contains a lot more dense metal machinery and a lot less low-density rocket fuel.

Engineering a ten-megaton warhead onto a missile fifteen meters long and two meters wide would probably be an achievable challenge today using turn-of-the-millenium technology. By contrast, a hundred megaton warhead would probably require either a physically bigger missile (as in, larger in diameter) or some technique for making nuclear weapons vastly more efficient than they are now.

The current state of the art is around five kilotons of yield per kilogram of nuclear bomb; note that this is per kilogram of bomb, not per kilogram of fissile material.
We're talking about LAC missiles here, remember.

For MDM Shipkillers, they are 40-50 Megaton Warheads IIRC, with the lasing rods AND the gravity pinch to shape the blast. Actually, thats wrong. 1921 RMN Cruiser grade shipkillers are now 40 Megatons, which is stated to be rough analog to Capital warheads in 1917. (Obviously the capship shipkillers have been upyielded since then)
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