Game of Thrones Season 4 discussion (book spoilers included)

[Mr Bean]

Thank you Winter is Coming, also No Stoneheart this season which can be forgiven but seriously WHERE DO WHORES GO D&D? Where do they go?

And why are you patting yourself on the back so hard when you cut the motivation out from under two main characters?

[Crazedwraith]

On the one hand, cutting the Tysha revelation is damn stupid. On the other hand I wouldn't miss 'where do whores go?' As Tyrion's catchphrase. The guy just becomes vile in Dance For Dragons. It was amazing how bad and boring that book made Tyrion and Jon, previously some of my favourite characters.

And that was not such a big deal for Jaime. He was already moving towards 'i will be honourable now' and splitting with Cersei well before than conversation. At least in the books.

[TheHammer]

That's the spoiler and it's such a WTF because from then on Tyrion thinks "wherever whores go" for the next BOOK while Jamie is thinking "She's fucking Lancel and Osmend Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know" as he goes around becoming what he will become.

It sets up the two paths of Tyrion falling into major depression as he thinks back on killing his father and Shae while finding out Tysha was exactly what she appeared to be... a girl who loved him, someone he watched get rapped by an entire barracks full of people. It drives him into a funk and turns him semi-sucidal and makes him determined to take back what is his (Castley Rock)

I think the emotional core of being depressed and semi-suicidal, and subsequently determined to take Casterly Rock would still be there simply from killing of Shae and Tywin, along with everything else he had just gone through. The Tysha story would heap a little extra on top, but is hardly necessary to further the plot point IMO.

Meanwhile Jamie is seeing that his twin has been cheating on him with other men and she tells him to his face she's always lied to him. Someone he's thought of his other half his entire life... and it sets him on a different path one in which he ends up wanting to redeem his honor and becoming someone people can be inspired by rather than just in it for himself.

Jamie can find out about Cersei's cheating in a number of different ways. And the confrontation can play out exactly as the above. It doesn't have to be Tyrion that makes the reveal. Obviously this is going to happen at some point in order to get Jamie moving.

[Vympel]

Fuck the Tysha revelation. It was daft, unnecesary and hamfisted in the book and it would've been even worse in the show - having all but book purists scrambling to wonder what the hell Jaime was even talking about and why Tyrion was mad. Tyrion already had ample motivation to kill Tywin.

[Crazedwraith]

Fuck the Tysha revelation. It was daft, unnecesary and hamfisted in the book and it would've been even worse in the show - having all but book purists scrambling to wonder what the hell Jaime was even talking about and why Tyrion was mad. Tyrion already had ample motivation to kill Tywin.

It's less about him killing Tywin as the knock on implications. Jaime confessing what he did and then Tyrion claiming to have killed Joffery absolutely destroys their relationship. From 'bust you out of black cells' to 'we will try and kill each other if we ever meet again' which may well prove to important in later books.

Though you're right it'd be hard to do in television. In the books we're often reminded of Tysha in dialogue and Tyrion's thoughts. Less so in the series.

[Ziggy Stardust]

They capture some moments so well only to make changes that only make the show worse in times to come even if it let them save a few seconds here and there.

Out of curiosity, why do you think any of these changes make the show worse? I think removing the Tysha revelation was fine; I actually prefer the development the way the show is doing it, instead of Jaime stopping during a prison break to say, "Oh, btw, jk about that first whore, lol". It would have retroactively weakened any emotional impact to the Shae storyline if all he was really angry about was Tysha, in my opinion. I like that they are streamlining it. There is more than enough for Tyrion to be mad about.

What about these other changes?

[Mr Bean]

What about these other changes?

I could give you a list but at the moment my other major issue is the Blood Raven. He's a hundred plus year old man who has a tree growing through him. He's Pan's Labyrinth level disturbing yet obviously magical.

This Blood Raven was Gandalf without his hat leaning on some roots... and lets not even get into the Children are Wizards tossing around Fireball spells every round. In the books we have half skeletal half flesh whites getting burned by a torch when Leaf charges in. Here she's throwing fireballs like it's nothing. Magic in A Song of Ice and Fire is a big deal it's not common and it has massive drawbacks. To take a line from the books magic is a sword without a hilt. Something that can hurt as easily as help you and it all has it's price. Everything has it's price and sometimes it's hard to know if magic is doing anything.

And here comes Leaf tossing out Fireballs left and right. The tone of which Martin sets for magic this is as out of character as if Leaf had rocked out there with RPG.

[Spoonist]

Uhm, she is not throwing fireballs, she is throwing balls of fire.
As in she is actually throwing a physical object with a trajectory and all which then goes boom. More like grenades, although it looks like she ignites them by magic.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Uhm, she is not throwing fireballs, she is throwing balls of fire.

This comment reminds me of the time I referred to the villain of "Bulletproof Monk" as a "magical Nazi," whereupon my friend became upset and started arguing with me that he was, actually, a Nazi that gained magical powers, and not a magical Nazi.

The tone of which Martin sets for magic this is as out of character as if Leaf had rocked out there with RPG.

Fair enough. I don't mind the fireballs thing much, but the book version of the Blood Raven does sound a lot cooler.

[Pelranius]

Going to the prophecy that Dany would be betrayed for love... could it be Barristan? He was quite taken in with Ashara Dayne, and I'm afraid that Varys could leverage it in some way (insinuate that Faegon is Ashara's son?)?

[Guardsman Bass]

Fair enough. I don't mind the fireballs thing much, but the book version of the Blood Raven does sound a lot cooler.

This is closer to how I imagined him in the books:
Spoiler

Seriously, he's got a goddamn branch growing out of the eye socket of the eye he lost long ago. That would have been pretty striking on Show-Bloodraven.

Out of curiosity, why do you think any of these changes make the show worse? I think removing the Tysha revelation was fine; I actually prefer the development the way the show is doing it, instead of Jaime stopping during a prison break to say, "Oh, btw, jk about that first whore, lol". It would have retroactively weakened any emotional impact to the Shae storyline if all he was really angry about was Tysha, in my opinion. I like that they are streamlining it. There is more than enough for Tyrion to be mad about.

The Tysha storyline had to go, since they haven't talked about it at all since the first season. Besides, Tyrion's got plenty enough reasons to hate Tywin, including the Shae factor.

One other thing they really changed is scaling back the hints of a more direct Varyspiracy to kill Tywin, beyond Varys simply helping to get him out with Jaime's assistance. In the books it's pretty strongly hinted that Varys is setting the murder in motion - he just so happens to leave a torch in the area below the Tower of the Hand so that Tyrion knows he's there, after which he gives Tyrion very specific advice on how to get to Tywin's chambers, where there just so happens to be a crossbow conveniently mounted with a chest placed below it where he can reach it, and Tywin also conveniently is on the toilet instead of in his chambers where he might sound for guards (after we got foreshadowing way back about a poison that could stop a man's bowels until he dies from it).

[Vympel]

One other thing they really changed is scaling back the hints of a more direct Varyspiracy to kill Tywin, beyond Varys simply helping to get him out with Jaime's assistance. In the books it's pretty strongly hinted that Varys is setting the murder in motion - he just so happens to leave a torch in the area below the Tower of the Hand so that Tyrion knows he's there, after which he gives Tyrion very specific advice on how to get to Tywin's chambers, where there just so happens to be a crossbow conveniently mounted with a chest placed below it where he can reach it, and Tywin also conveniently is on the toilet instead of in his chambers where he might sound for guards (after we got foreshadowing way back about a poison that could stop a man's bowels until he dies from it).

GRRM very strongly hinted in an inteview he just did that Varys had a hand in Shae being in Tywin's bed in the books too. He declines to discuss the topic except to say he has more to reveal.

[Guardsman Bass]

My guess is that that was the final "test" that Varys put him through, after helping to run him through the trial ringer. If he had refused to kill Tywin, Varys would have done it himself and killed both of them.

I don't know about the "Shae plant" thing. It's possible, although I looked at the part again and she doesn't seem "drugged" that much like people claim. Plus, I'll admit I really, really like the idea of Tywin being a secret whoremonger like Tyrion, tying together in that way as well (especially if it also means he was the guy who built the secret tunnel to Chataya's Brothel).

[Spoonist]

Uhm, she is not throwing fireballs, she is throwing balls of fire.

This comment reminds me of the time I referred to the villain of "Bulletproof Monk" as a "magical Nazi," whereupon my friend became upset and started arguing with me that he was, actually, a Nazi that gained magical powers, and not a magical Nazi.

Not the same since I explained what I hinted at in the sentance below which you cut in the quote. There is quite a difference appart from semantics between a grenade type object and a fireball spell out of thin air.

[Spekio]

I just watched it, and indeed, kind of a letdown.
Oh you magnificent cunt.

[Guardsman Bass]

Not the same since I explained what I hinted at in the sentance below which you cut in the quote. There is quite a difference appart from semantics between a grenade type object and a fireball spell out of thin air.

Why have them at all, I wonder, when the original scene in the books just had the Child move quickly between them with a torch? Maybe it was cheaper to do the grenades in terms of special effects.

*snip*

I was a little disappointed with some of it, particularly the way the Jon Snow arc for this season ended without any real sense of it being tied off. But there were some great scenes - the fight between Jaime and Sandor, Jon Snow's aside to Stannis about burning the bodies, and so forth.

The photo's good, and she had a pretty funny "insult off" with Jimmy Kimmel. Please don't use "cunt" like that, though - it's a gender slur.

[Napoleon the Clown]

I'm pretty sure that Jaime has only one hand. And testicles. And was in King's Landing at the time.


But yeah, the Brienne/Hound fight was pretty entertaining. I remembered teaser stuff for this season where Gwendoline Christie mentioned getting to bite off someone's ear, and remembered that before Brienne channeled Mike Tyson. I find myself very appreciative of Brienne's fighting methods. Bite an ear off, punch a dude in the grapes... Anyone else notice that the Hound returned the favor for Brienne punching him in the dick? It's unusual for a work to acknowledge that a blow to the groin hurts quite a lot for women, too.

[Spoonist]

Not the same since I explained what I hinted at in the sentance below which you cut in the quote. There is quite a difference appart from semantics between a grenade type object and a fireball spell out of thin air.

Why have them at all, I wonder, when the original scene in the books just had the Child move quickly between them with a torch? Maybe it was cheaper to do the grenades in terms of special effects.

Now, personally I would have prefered torching but I can see why they went the way they did.
1) it doesn't make visual sense that setting them on fire would burn them quickly enough
2) subtlety does not work on screen
3) they knew it was a season finally and needed a bit of umph so that this scene wouldn't just be filler
4) they needed to convey in a fast way that this is something momentous is happening so that when they run the "this happened last season" for ordinary people they have a fast visual which people will remember

[Spekio]

Please don't use "cunt" like that, though - it's a gender slur.

Or a gender neutral derogatory epithet.


Still, the shirt is refering to her photo on instagram of a hearth made of stones, and how she was trolling us with Lady Stonehearth.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Not the same since I explained what I hinted at in the sentance below which you cut in the quote. There is quite a difference appart from semantics between a grenade type object and a fireball spell out of thin air.

Well, no, there isn't, not in this context. It's just being pedantic for no reason. She used magical fire to destroy the skeletons; why does it make such a huge difference to you whether she was magically burning pine cones a la Gandalf in the Hobbit versus just directly throwing the magical fire itself? All that matters is that she used magical fire, as opposed to a torch. That was the context "fireball" was mentioned, thus my magical Nazi example. It IS arguing semantics just for the hell of it.

[Raw Shark]

Still, the shirt is refering to her photo on instagram of a hearth made of stones, and how she was trolling us with Lady Stonehearth.

It's minus the second H in the books.

[Spekio]

Still, the shirt is refering to her photo on instagram of a hearth made of stones, and how she was trolling us with Lady Stonehearth.

It's minus the second H in the books.

English and all it's Hs confuses me occasionaly.

[Themightytom]

GRRM very strongly hinted in an inteview he just did that Varys had a hand in Shae being in Tywin's bed in the books too. He declines to discuss the topic except to say he has more to reveal.

Maybe they are setting Tyrion up to find out Shea was sleeping with Tywin to try to get Tyrion out of jail.. that would kind of make the omission of Tyrion's conversation with jaime make more sense since they could have the same reveal to the audience later regarding a character we actually saw.

[Steel]

Hmmm... but then why go for the knife?

I think things are as they seem here: she was going where the money/safety was

[Scrib]

Fuck the Tysha revelation. It was daft, unnecesary and hamfisted in the book and it would've been even worse in the show - having all but book purists scrambling to wonder what the hell Jaime was even talking about and why Tyrion was mad. Tyrion already had ample motivation to kill Tywin.

Meh, I agree in general but I don't thin that it was stupid or hamfisted. It fit the personality of the person doing it quite well, as shown by the scene right after the revelation.

That said, I'm totally with you on the adaptation side. This sort of thing happens, and the show hasn't sold us on Tyrion's mental trauma from Tysha enough to make anyone care.

I feel as if they should have changed things more though. If you cut Tysha out the entire reason that Tyrion finds the word "whore" cutting is gone. Tyrion himself calls Shae a whore the second to last time he saw her. He then kills her. The entire reason the word was so enraging to him was because Tysha wasn't a whore. He wouldn't kill his hated father almost casually because he uses that word. It's nitpicking, but imo, that is a case of picking something from the books that you needn't pick when you discarded what gave it meaning. If they had gotten rid of it something equally valid could have taken its place.