Modern World STGOD Concept

[Beowulf]

How anti-communist are you anyway? Say with regards to the UOCSR?

Not especially anti-communist. Just fearful of Komradistan.

Er, no, sorry, I meant Mark IV but lost count. Purchases or license production in the mid-1990s, to both complement the prospective fifth generation fighter and provide backup capability if the design turned out to be a flop.

Mark IV version sounds fine to me. License production is probably doable, especially if you use native avionics. Then there isn't a bottleneck for radars and other sensors. I assume you also licensed a prior mark of the J-10.

Snow Leopard: License-produced VTOL aircraft broadly analogous to a 1970s-era Harrier. Dunno where it comes from. Umeria has Issues with mass purchase of a San Doradan fighter or I'd work with Siege to gin up one of theirs.

The (what is currently numbered J-11) wasn't the first STOVL fighter that Tianguo designed. It's just the first one to get a production contract. An earlier iteration would have been, well, the Harrier, as an armed derivative of the Kestrel.

[Siege]

Would any San Doradan companies have taken Dreisgrondian dollars by setting up some manufacturing there and bidding on military contracts?

Does the pope speak Latin? Of course they would have!

[Jub]

Does the pope speak Latin? Of course they would have!

I figured as much, but I wanted to confirm before I started thinking of stories that could come from this.

[Steve]

So, who wants invitations to the USCAF's celebration of the centennial of General Mark Sheppard's birthday?

General Sheppard was, to clarify, the Cascadian LeMay, serving in bomber command positions in bombing missions against Klavostan, Britonian colony targets in South America, and finally commanding the 3rd Air (Bomber) Force in Fuso and being responsible for the firebombing methods that burned entire cities to ash. I suspect the Nipponese/Ostrheinlandische call him the Butcher of Edo or the Demon of the Sky or some such thing.

[K. A. Pital]

You are making another SDWN and I can't participate... Nooo...

Anyway, for what it's worth, all the collected SDNW pics of Russian 80s to 2010s weaponry (lots and lots of it) I hand over to Fin. There's a ton more Russian/Soviet/China pictures that I've got, so those of you who play for the Reds are welcome, ask and I'll give whatever you need - from Palace of the Soviets to a flag of the USA, had it become communist.

[Siege]

STEVE: Assuming select mercenary squadrons fought for Fuso / Cascadia / the allies during the war there could be a CEO of some kind present, sure. It sounds like a good networking opportunity .

STAS: 'Can't' is a big word . PeZook also has time constraints that make him kind of unable to be very active with Kagaria, wouldn't it be possible for the two of you to do join forces to run that place? Just an idea...

[madd0ct0r]

it's not like we're short on NPC's either

[Siege]

Yes, but I'm assuming Stas is prevented from participating by time constraints, not geographic constraints. A map is easily altered after all.

[Steve]

You are making another SDWN and I can't participate... Nooo...

Anyway, for what it's worth, all the collected SDNW pics of Russian 80s to 2010s weaponry (lots and lots of it) I hand over to Fin. There's a ton more Russian/Soviet/China pictures that I've got, so those of you who play for the Reds are welcome, ask and I'll give whatever you need - from Palace of the Soviets to a flag of the USA, had it become communist.

And here I thought I'd have to repeatedly use words like "exploit" and "capitalism" to get your brain to itch enough to come investigate.

As for the Commie US flag, I prefer the one made for the Flags Mod of Victoria (one of the Paradox games). It kept the stars and the blue field under them and replaced the stripes with a red field and, in the right side, a sickle and hammer.

Of course, that doesn't hold a candle to the original Victoria's Communist Texas flag. Commie Texans don't have a use for sickles and hammers, they have rifle-and-hammer for their Communist symbolism.

Anyway, weigh in whenever you want, or if you get an itch.

[Steve]

STEVE: Assuming select mercenary squadrons fought for Fuso / Cascadia / the allies during the war there could be a CEO of some kind present, sure. It sounds like a good networking opportunity .

Heh. Always possible, especially if Fuso hired any to supplement their forces.

As for this idea, it's mostly for me to have some fun with a diplomatic faux pas. Namely... the person mailing out the invites just sends them to all of the embassies... and this means the Ambassador of Rheinland gets invited to a party commemorating a man no different from the Britonian commander who was so hated they stripped his name from their history books.

[K. A. Pital]

I'm trying to write a novel and learn some languages in the little spare time that I've got, guys, but thanks anyway.

[Simon_Jester]

Snow Leopard: License-produced VTOL aircraft broadly analogous to a 1970s-era Harrier. Dunno where it comes from. Umeria has Issues with mass purchase of a San Doradan fighter or I'd work with Siege to gin up one of theirs.

I'm sure we could work out a licensing deal for production in Umeria if that's the issue. Umeria might not like San Dorado, but San Dorado really doesn't care, especially not if this plane is a hypothetical predecessor to the Vixen. Move the old tooling to Umeria, have you guys produce it, and make money off it anyway: it's a win-win deal!

Two separate responses:

1) Snow Leopard is a subsonic aircraft, like the Harrier, and in combat with basically any fighter jet designed after 1960 it'd probably lose. It's designed to provide attack, support in brushfire conflicts, and to fly off of dedicated helicopter-carrying ships.

Umeria's Chariot and Helix's Vixen, by contrast, are (so far as I can tell) fully competent as frontline aviation fighters, and could tangle with most of the fighter jets in the world today with reasonable hope of success, though details depend on details obviously. Sort of like the F-35, as designed with F-16 or Eurofighter technology.

I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to call a VTOL Harrier-like aircraft a precursor to Vixen, but there'd certainly be some similarity, and lessons learned from the Harrier-clone would apply to building Vixen (or Chariot).

Anyway...

2) Actually, thinking about it more, the Umerians at that time in particular (1970-75) would just eat that up and think it was the best thing ever, and whichever techno-bureaucrat negotiated the deal would probably have at least a few people half-jokingly nominating him for king of Umeria.

To be more precise, the Umerians' issue is simply that the warrior-mathematician-bureaucrat class hates the idea of only being able to defend their country at someone else's pleasure. This was an issue as far back as the Cocaine Wars, and explains why the San Doradan merchants did not get much traction trying to sell the Umerians guns to deal with all the crackheads created by their earlier cocaine sales.

The Umerian response was dominated by the early precursors to the warrior-mathematicians, and they were so focused on building up a domestic arms industry that was theirs that they were willfully irrational about the idea of buying superior foreign weapons.

By contrast, a situation where someone sells them the production tooling for a combat aircraft, to be operated by low-wage but basically literate and competent Umerian technicians, in exchange for a (very hefty) cut of the sales profits... that would appeal strongly to the Umerians in the '70s, which was the time when they finally had their domestic economy straightened out to the point where they were beginning to be able to think about designing and building modern aircraft.

That would be SO win-win from their point of view, because having the ability to physically build and improve on the weapons, and learn from the design and so on, is what they really value. Even if someone else rakes in the arbitrary value tokens in a big way as a result.

Er, no, sorry, I meant Mark IV but lost count. Purchases or license production in the mid-1990s, to both complement the prospective fifth generation fighter and provide backup capability if the design turned out to be a flop.

Mark IV version sounds fine to me. License production is probably doable, especially if you use native avionics. Then there isn't a bottleneck for radars and other sensors. I assume you also licensed a prior mark of the J-10.

The Umerians weren't up to building triplesonic fighters that wouldn't fall apart in midair in 1970. By 1975-80 they could have done though this probably resulted in a number of inept workers and more than a few managers and engineers being sent to labor camps for screwing up.

They would gleefully have set up a license-production line for the J-10A or J-10B in the late '70s, even unto the extent of letting the Tianguonese manufacturer make money hand over fist off the deal... as I discussed with Siege and for the same reasons.

Snow Leopard: License-produced VTOL aircraft broadly analogous to a 1970s-era Harrier. Dunno where it comes from. Umeria has Issues with mass purchase of a San Doradan fighter or I'd work with Siege to gin up one of theirs.

The (what is currently numbered J-11) wasn't the first STOVL fighter that Tianguo designed. It's just the first one to get a production contract. An earlier iteration would have been, well, the Harrier, as an armed derivative of the Kestrel.[/quote]Actually I like the idea of it being a San Doradan aircraft design that Helix basically leased production of out to the Umerians because they wanted to clear their production line to turn out the (much faster and nastier) Vixen instead.

You are making another SDWN and I can't participate... Nooo...

Everyone would welcome you, me included.

!

For myself, I would appreciate any insights you might have on the psychology of the governing bodies in modern China, because while they aren't the same as the Umerians there's at least a funhouse-mirror relationship. It is a matter of which I am relatively ignorant, even though such knowledge would be interesting and useful to me, alas.

Then again, that's exactly the sort of thing that would take up more of your time than you might have to spare, which is fine and I totally understand. I hope your novel kicks butt.

[Esquire]

Spectre: Swing-wing aircraft otherwise similar to the F-4 Phantom. Again a foreign purchase, but the country the Umerians bought it from has probably stopped making them. Still in limited use because it makes a pretty good 'dumb attack' aircraft.

Would these have been purchased as complete units, or built on license? If it's the latter, maybe the Spectre was designed in Apelia (under a different name, probably) and sold to Umeria as a sort of final test stage prior to domestic adoption? A lot of second-line Apelia equipment dates to the late 60s-early 70s, in real-world time, so it would fit.

[Siege]

I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to call a VTOL Harrier-like aircraft a precursor to Vixen, but there'd certainly be some similarity, and lessons learned from the Harrier-clone would apply to building Vixen (or Chariot).

There might be another generation inbetween. I imagine San Dorado pioneered VTOL jets at a very early age simply because by the '40's they were already pretty much out of space for runways. This likely resulted in several horribly unsafe designs in the fifties involving fun things like tying dozens of JATO bottles to the underside of vertijets. Then the engineers figured out the Harrier analogue that actually worked and reliably kept the pilot alive, which was a great succes. That lead to a third heavier design with supersonic dash capability in the mid-eighties, and finally to the Vixen which at game start is still a relatively new aircraft (5-10 years in active service).

The laserlike focus on VTOL capability I imagine means that Helix is simply the best at building such aircraft in the world. The Vixen isn't very stealthy, it's not a dogfighter and it guzzles fuel like a monster but god-damn if it isn't the baddest hotrod of the sky with ludicrously powerful engines that make it go from hover to supersonic zoom-climb in under three seconds, a radar that can microwave a turkey at fifty miles, and more missiles than god.

These, San Dorado's cheap mass entertainment impresses upon the world, are the qualities that will make the Vixen come out of any air combat victorious .

That would be SO win-win from their point of view, because having the ability to physically build and improve on the weapons, and learn from the design and so on, is what they really value. Even if someone else rakes in the arbitrary value tokens in a big way as a result.

Sounds good to me. If you're happy then we're happy, it's a pretty sweet way to make money.

[Simon_Jester]

Spectre: Swing-wing aircraft otherwise similar to the F-4 Phantom. Again a foreign purchase, but the country the Umerians bought it from has probably stopped making them. Still in limited use because it makes a pretty good 'dumb attack' aircraft.

Would these have been purchased as complete units, or built on license? If it's the latter, maybe the Spectre was designed in Apelia (under a different name, probably) and sold to Umeria as a sort of final test stage prior to domestic adoption? A lot of second-line Apelia equipment dates to the late 60s-early 70s, in real-world time, so it would fit.

I have a hard time picturing anyone selling one of their latest aircraft to a foreigner before adopting it themselves. Is there something about your country that would lead them to do that?

There might be another generation inbetween. I imagine San Dorado pioneered VTOL jets at a very early age simply because by the '40's they were already pretty much out of space for runways. This likely resulted in several horribly unsafe designs in the fifties involving fun things like tying dozens of JATO bottles to the underside of vertijets. Then the engineers figured out the Harrier analogue that actually worked and reliably kept the pilot alive, which was a great succes. That lead to a third heavier design with supersonic dash capability in the mid-eighties, and finally to the Vixen which at game start is still a relatively new aircraft (5-10 years in active service).

The laserlike focus on VTOL capability I imagine means that Helix is simply the best at building such aircraft in the world. The Vixen isn't very stealthy, it's not a dogfighter and it guzzles fuel like a monster but god-damn if it isn't the baddest hotrod of the sky with ludicrously powerful engines that make it go from hover to supersonic zoom-climb in under three seconds, a radar that can microwave a turkey at fifty miles, and more missiles than god.

These, San Dorado's cheap mass entertainment impresses upon the world, are the qualities that will make the Vixen come out of any air combat victorious .

Ah. In that case, Chariot predates Vixen (widespread serial production by 1990 assuming this is 2014) and could outrun its predecessor... on the other hand, its VTOL variant is rather lightly armed as far as I can recall. Need to think and read a bit more. The conventional runway version might be less limited in that respect.

Vixen would, hm, as described it'd make a nasty short range interceptor. Get fast and high and fire off a massed barrage of air to air missiles. On the other hand, range for the strike mission is probably not so good.

That would be SO win-win from their point of view, because having the ability to physically build and improve on the weapons, and learn from the design and so on, is what they really value. Even if someone else rakes in the arbitrary value tokens in a big way as a result.

Sounds good to me. If you're happy then we're happy, it's a pretty sweet way to make money.

[Has an amused image of Helix executives finding out about the Chariot-A at the Cityburg Air Show and going "Dammit, they built a better fighter out of that old hunk of junk than we did!"]

[More seriously, Chariot would owe some design legacy to examination of the Snow Leopard design and production tooling, but would be significantly different in many respects]

[Esquire]

I have a hard time picturing anyone selling one of their latest aircraft to a foreigner before adopting it themselves. Is there something about your country that would lead them to do that?

Sorry, I oversimplified-Zephyr Flight Workshops, the Apelian company that designed the Spectre, originally tried to sell it as a compromise to the Navy and the Air Force, on the theory that a swing-wing design would save space on cramped carrier flight decks and provide a useful boost in maneuverability. Neither of the intended customers could stand it; it was too much a carrier fighter for the Air Force and not enough of one for the Navy - besides, the new carriers the Navy was ordering wouldn't be cramped enough to justify a whole new aircraft just to save space. They tried to redesign it for the Air Force alone, but during redesign the AIr Force's procurement budget was slashed to pay for new tanks, and it was rejected as too expensive.

At that point so much design time and money had been sunk into the thing that they had to get something out of it, so a third version was produced for the export market - this one a proper land-based fighter with most of the kinks worked out through the two rounds of redesign. The export version was, ironically, the best of the lot, and when the Air Force had more money to play with a few years later they took a look at the flight test results and ordered several squadrons. Very much not normal procedure, but there you go.

[Simon_Jester]

Ah.

Now THAT works.

Of course, the F-4 is a perfectly suitable carrier fighter as-designed without variable geometry, but there you go.

[Steve]

Looking back over Thanas' writeup for the Great War (Calling it the 2nd Great War may not work so well given nobody's talked about fighting the WWI-analogue alongside Britonia or Rheinland), the five years between "war starts" and "desperate Britonians begin bombing" leaves for some interesting maneuvering.

Obviously the Britonian appeasement party was thrown out by a vote of no confidence, and a more resolute one instituted. With the stalemate in the naval battle, looking for allies to tilt the naval balance back against Rheinland is obvious. I can see them going to the North American states facing the Atlantic; Dreisgrond, facing whatever internal problems eventually led to civil war, would perhaps have been sympathetic enough to consider it, while Tianguo clearly stayed out. Then comes Klavostan, with its own appreciable fleet and enough battleships to tilt the balance. But the fascist regime in Klavostan (or whichever kind of nasty regime Klavo wants to say was there) has a price tag; Britonian and Nipponese support for a war against Cascadia, with Klavostan guaranteed to gain Sonora by treaty. Nippon, which still wants Fuso, agrees, and Britonia feels compelled to the agreement as well.

And so in 1939 the war breaks out in North America and the Pacific (this only requires modification to Shinn having it do so in 1937, but I think that's too early compared to what's going on elsewhere). The Klavostanis emulate Rheinland's blitzkrieg tactics to overwhelm Sonora and Sinaloa, nearly getting to Arizona before resistance stiffens. On the seas they attempt to repeat the victory at Baja to clear the way for landings in Patagonia, but the Battle of the Asturian Islands is a tactical draw and strategic defeat as the Klavostanis lose two battleships to no permanent Cascadian losses (although four Cascadian battleships require extensive repair and will be out of action for months). The Nipponese attempt a blockade that fails until reinforced by new construction, which despite Britonian pleas is not sent to their "Western Striking Force" - the fleet based in Britonia - but is kept for the war in the Pacific. Included in this construction are the fleet carriers of Kido Butai; under Admiral Yamamoto, this force makes a daring strike in 1941 against the Cascadian naval base of Chuuk, where they sink half of the Cascadian Western Pacific Fleet at anchor and inflict severe damage on the naval base's facilities. Three weeks later, in the Battle of Palawan, the core of Fuso's nascent navy is sent to the bottom by Yamamoto's carriers, which also fight off Fuso's air force with their nimble Zerosen fighters. In one swoop, Nippon shifts the balance of power in the West Pacific, while in North America the high water mark of the Klavostani invasion is seen as Klavostani tanks actually cross the Colorado into Arizona and Baja. General al-Malaki, the daring Klavostani tank commander responsible for this success, boasts to the Sultan that he will send him photos of his tanks in Los Angeles in the following year.

Between the Nipponese naval success, the Klavostani invasion's apogee, and the cities of Southern Rheinland burning under the Britonian bombers, 1941 sees the Allies reeling and seemingly on the edge of defeat. Neutral powers begin arming themselves against the likely victors and some begin directly cozying up to them. As 1942 looms, the Britonian-Nipponese-Klavostani alliance seems to be on the cusp of victory.....

(I'll finish later, after I get thoughts from Thanas and Klavo and others on this).

[Jub]

So far Beowulf and myself have worked out that we had a war that was going on during the second great war. Something of a forgotten war as it was an isolated event that either nobody could spare resources to get involved in or was simply not something people saw a profit in getting involved with. The damage caused when fighting stalemated within Versahinveld, as well as Tianguo supporting the rebels, is what caused the civil war and eventually the creation of Versahinveld as it's own nation.

[Beowulf]

Spectre: Swing-wing aircraft otherwise similar to the F-4 Phantom. Again a foreign purchase, but the country the Umerians bought it from has probably stopped making them. Still in limited use because it makes a pretty good 'dumb attack' aircraft.

Would these have been purchased as complete units, or built on license? If it's the latter, maybe the Spectre was designed in Apelia (under a different name, probably) and sold to Umeria as a sort of final test stage prior to domestic adoption? A lot of second-line Apelia equipment dates to the late 60s-early 70s, in real-world time, so it would fit.

Speaking of this, there was a proposal (F-4 FVS) for a swing wing Phantom. The wings got moved from the the bottom to shoulder mount, with improvments to landing speed and manueverability. There is some precedent for an aircraft being designed and sold for foreign military use, but it's usually stuff that never goes in service in the originating nation's military. Even then, being used by their own military is a good selling point, and helps with foreing sales.

Swing wing designs aren't to save space on carrier decks. It's always easier to just have the wings fold. It's less stressful on the joint that swing wing. It is good for improving both top speed and approach speed. Another downside is that it's hard to stick munitions on the moving wing sections, so most munitions end up in or on the fuselage, or under the wing glove.

[K. A. Pital]

Everyone would welcome you, me included.

!

For myself, I would appreciate any insights you might have on the psychology of the governing bodies in modern China, because while they aren't the same as the Umerians there's at least a funhouse-mirror relationship. It is a matter of which I am relatively ignorant, even though such knowledge would be interesting and useful to me, alas.

Then again, that's exactly the sort of thing that would take up more of your time than you might have to spare, which is fine and I totally understand. I hope your novel kicks butt.

I do enjoy collaborative fiction, but I no longer enjoy the number-crunching that comes with that game. However, providing some random info on how technocratic governments function won't take a lot of my time. You probably know by now that such governments rely on feedback from small-scale experiments (they usually set up pilot zones to test some ideas within the nation-state, as directly questioning public opinion is usually bound to produce a skewed result in such nations) which are later expanded to the whole. Statistics are used - to the best of the government's ability - for proactive approach to problems, whereas the reactive problem-solving mechanism works like that: a small problem is ignored until it becomes big enough for the national government to notice it (not too hard - you can figure it out by watching youtube videos that your gadget-equipped citizens tend to angrily upload whenever something worries them enough). When the problem becomes big, the government intervenes heavily and punishes the guilty - of course, those can include not only the original actors who caused the problems but sometimes the loudest of the whistleblowers, too, to make sure the situation dies down after pinpoint removals/arrests.

Like I said, just ask.

[Siege]

Vixen would, hm, as described it'd make a nasty short range interceptor. Get fast and high and fire off a massed barrage of air to air missiles. On the other hand, range for the strike mission is probably not so good.

The Vixen is not designed for attack missions. Instead there's the Fakir for deep strike and the Manticore, an array of helicopters and the occasional drone for close air support.

[That_Guy]

Hi there, wondering if there is any space for a newbie? Eternal_Freedom showed me this thread and it looks like it could be a good bit of fun. He has also stated that I could (With the approval of the group) move into one of the NPCs near Orion, probably Fortuna.

[Beowulf]

Of course there's room! You're certain to be one of the smaller powers, just because we don't know you though.

[Thanas]

Hi there, wondering if there is any space for a newbie? Eternal_Freedom showed me this thread and it looks like it could be a good bit of fun. He has also stated that I could (With the approval of the group) move into one of the NPCs near Orion, probably Fortuna.

Welcome. Which number has Fortuna on the global map?

EDIT: Never mind. 15. Landlocked and loving it? What do you plan for your nation?

Looking back over Thanas' writeup for the Great War (Calling it the 2nd Great War may not work so well given nobody's talked about fighting the WWI-analogue alongside Britonia or Rheinland), the five years between "war starts" and "desperate Britonians begin bombing" leaves for some interesting maneuvering.

Obviously the Britonian appeasement party was thrown out by a vote of no confidence, and a more resolute one instituted. With the stalemate in the naval battle, looking for allies to tilt the naval balance back against Rheinland is obvious. I can see them going to the North American states facing the Atlantic; Dreisgrond, facing whatever internal problems eventually led to civil war, would perhaps have been sympathetic enough to consider it, while Tianguo clearly stayed out. Then comes Klavostan, with its own appreciable fleet and enough battleships to tilt the balance. But the fascist regime in Klavostan (or whichever kind of nasty regime Klavo wants to say was there) has a price tag; Britonian and Nipponese support for a war against Cascadia, with Klavostan guaranteed to gain Sonora by treaty. Nippon, which still wants Fuso, agrees, and Britonia feels compelled to the agreement as well.

And so in 1939 the war breaks out in North America and the Pacific (this only requires modification to Shinn having it do so in 1937, but I think that's too early compared to what's going on elsewhere). The Klavostanis emulate Rheinland's blitzkrieg tactics to overwhelm Sonora and Sinaloa, nearly getting to Arizona before resistance stiffens. On the seas they attempt to repeat the victory at Baja to clear the way for landings in Patagonia, but the Battle of the Asturian Islands is a tactical draw and strategic defeat as the Klavostanis lose two battleships to no permanent Cascadian losses (although four Cascadian battleships require extensive repair and will be out of action for months). The Nipponese attempt a blockade that fails until reinforced by new construction, which despite Britonian pleas is not sent to their "Western Striking Force" - the fleet based in Britonia - but is kept for the war in the Pacific. Included in this construction are the fleet carriers of Kido Butai; under Admiral Yamamoto, this force makes a daring strike in 1941 against the Cascadian naval base of Chuuk, where they sink half of the Cascadian Western Pacific Fleet at anchor and inflict severe damage on the naval base's facilities. Three weeks later, in the Battle of Palawan, the core of Fuso's nascent navy is sent to the bottom by Yamamoto's carriers, which also fight off Fuso's air force with their nimble Zerosen fighters. In one swoop, Nippon shifts the balance of power in the West Pacific, while in North America the high water mark of the Klavostani invasion is seen as Klavostani tanks actually cross the Colorado into Arizona and Baja. General al-Malaki, the daring Klavostani tank commander responsible for this success, boasts to the Sultan that he will send him photos of his tanks in Los Angeles in the following year.

Between the Nipponese naval success, the Klavostani invasion's apogee, and the cities of Southern Rheinland burning under the Britonian bombers, 1941 sees the Allies reeling and seemingly on the edge of defeat. Neutral powers begin arming themselves against the likely victors and some begin directly cozying up to them. As 1942 looms, the Britonian-Nipponese-Klavostani alliance seems to be on the cusp of victory.....

(I'll finish later, after I get thoughts from Thanas and Klavo and others on this).

Can we please get a bit more imaginative than just using real-life names for the Nipponese?

Other than that, the Nipponese and Britonians must have been the greatest naval powers of their day. We have already have them split their forces between like six nations? They already had something like 80 capital ships in Britonia combined to go up against Rheinland. I am not sure how much of my history is viable if everybody likes to beat up on Nippon and/or Britonia. Which is certainly not how I envisioned that to go.