Broomstick Visits A Gun Store

[TheFeniX]

It probably had some issues, as it was well worn.

Unlikely, it's a bolt-action: there's nowhere for the recoil to go except into the gun and into your shoulder. Could be the ammo. Or it could be that after tens of thousands of rounds of 12-gauge over the years, my shoulder is hammered flat and recoil just doesn't bother me.

I can reliably hit a playing card at 200m with only a diopter on my Enfield, so it's not my technique. Nor the size - my brothers and I are all your size - but it's an example of what I'm talking about. This gun leaves a bruise with every shot (no kidding, my brother actually started putting a folded towel under the stock to dampen it without modifying it - and it even hurt at the first shot, when we weren't expecting it and tensing up), and once you know that, you just can't shoot it comfortably, anymore. This particular weapon is something unfit for defense by that criterium alone.

I could reliably shoot out the bullseye with my 1911 at 10-20 yards. When I switched to 9mm, my groupings were awful. There was zero consistency to my shooting. It turns out that my grip, stance, and trigger pull were garbage and I had to completely relearn how to shoot at the age of 23 because everything I was doing and was taught was wrong. The moral of the story is that some guns are extremely forgiving to novice shooter, some are not.

I'm not saying this is your issue, but the Mosin's I've shot kick less than my Dad's .270 Winchester. They aren't fun to shoot, but I don't find them punishing at all. The Enfield has like 1/3 the muzzle velocity. Never shot one, but it likely kicks less than an AR-15.

The Mosin having large recoil isn't why I wouldn't use it for self-defense. It's because it's a big heavy motherfucker and bolt actions aren't for CQB. Battle Rifles are awesome, but really don't have a place for defense. An SKS would be a better bet in that situation if you had to sling a rifle caliber.

[Vejut]

Actually, the Mosin and the 303 are broadly comparable, and in about the same class as the .30-06, and the .308 winchester. 7.62x54R is on wiki as 2600 ft-lbs of muzzle energy in a 28 in barrel, .303 is 2400-2500 in 24, and both shoot roughly comparable sized bullets. That said, stock SMLE is only a 25 in. barrel, vs. the 31 in. monster on a full length mosin...maybe the metal buttplate on the mosin? My Enfeild I've shot was sporterized when I bought it, but not bad (and I'm notably recoil shy, 12ga and my .45-70 are both "oh fuck no" for me), though the recoil was noticable and more than my saiga. Haven't shot the ex-roommate's Type 53 yet though, so no direct basis of comparison.

[Sea Skimmer]

The metal plate on the Mosin is pretty harsh, get a pad for that and its no longer such a big deal. The Mosin also does just shoot a little violently, some guns do, and that can mentally magnify the felt recoil. This has been proven many times in studies. Felt vs actual recoil aren't the same thing; human brains are very foolish things.

[Lonestar]

Broom,

Try renting a 20ga and 12ga first, you may find that 20ga is more comfortable. People like Massad Ayoob actually recommend it as a perfectly viable alternative to a 12gauge.

If you do get a 12 gauge, I would recommend against 00 Buck or slugs, as you live in a partment building. Both overpentrate like crazy. Try #4.

[Col. Crackpot]

If you are budget minded i would try the Mossberg Maverick 88. It is basically a Mossberg 500 with a trigger safety and all synthetic stock, and if you want to dress it up most Mossberg 500 add on's are compatible. I have had good luck with mine. Full choke barrel. takes 3" magnum shells. Under $220 bucks brand new.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Get something like the SPZ ME/20 20 gauge over/under from Yildiz. They're excellently built Turkish shotguns that handle well and are quite reasonably priced for the build quality. Everything Skimmer says is right about guns, and I'd add Massoud is usually quite right. I wouldn't trust anything smaller than a 20 gauge, but it'll do fine. (16 gauge ammo can be somewhat hard to find, but it is a respectable compromise round). Semi-automatic 12 gauge will have less recoil than the double barrel that you probably should be buying (for the reasons Skimmer previously listed in this thread), so people who have fired a semi-automatic 12 gauge can underestimate the recoil in one that isn't a semiauto. I'm sure you could train yourself for it, but you'd probably be happier with 16 or 20. If you've got small shoulders like women usually do and especially women of slight build, the somewhat off-centre recoil of side by side barrels might be a bit more disconcerting than usual, and I've always felt the over/under is superiour for centre of gravity reasons -- though they're also an upper class affectation so your mileage may vary on my opinion there.

Anyhow, two rounds of 20 gauge ready to go at a split second's notice combined with a good plan will settle 95% of home invasions and you'd probably need a pillbox for the other 5%. I really hate how self defence scenarios always get bogged down in the most ridiculous things like massive sustained gunfights with multiple reloads and the need for 15 - 50 rounds of ammo, instead of the reality that nine times out of ten there's either a single exchange of rounds followed by the criminals running, or some kind of fistfight in which one person ultimately manages to get their gun ready first and wins at point blank range with one or two shots.

[Lonestar]

Get something like the SPZ ME/20 20 gauge over/under from Yildiz.

Alright Joe Biden.

OUs are for sport shooting, not defense. And most(including the one you just recommended) have absurdly long barrels because, well, they are sport guns. Not very fun to aim around in a apartment, especially if you're stressed out because you think someone is breaking in. Pump action or semiautomatic are the way to go(actually, a carbine in .223 is the way to go, but that isn't on the table).

Mossberg Maverick or 500 is the way to go. Avoid Remingtons unless it's a Chinese clone or at least 15 years old. Recommending a 28in long barrel OU from a dubious Turkish manufacturer that costs twice as much as a basic home defense pump is beyond silly.

[Broomstick]

I realize I haven't said much for awhile here but I am still reading. The debate and been both interesting and educational.

[Lonestar]

Besides the Mossbergs that have been mentioned, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Pardner Pump Protector which is one of the Chinese clones of Remington 870s I mentioned(others are sold under the IAC Hawk name). US-Made Remingtons for the past 10 years or so have seen a downward spiral regarding quality ever since Cerberus took over.

[Beowulf]

Besides the Mossbergs that have been mentioned, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the Pardner Pump Protector which is one of the Chinese clones of Remington 870s I mentioned(others are sold under the IAC Hawk name). US-Made Remingtons for the past 10 years or so have seen a downward spiral regarding quality ever since Cerberus took over.

I mentioned it back on page 2. The irony of it being a 870 clone, is that it's sold by Remington (H&R got bought out by Remington/Cerberus sometime ago).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Bah, you people have no sense of style. Turkish firearms have been beautifully ornate since firearms were invented. I mean, there is a 90% chance that the thing will just sit there for 50 years and never be used except for target practice, so one could make a semi-serious argument that how it looks is more important than how it works.

In all seriousness, Lonestar is right about the Yildiz but wrong about pump action/semi-auto; I was just offhandedly mentioning the type of gun I was thinking of so you could look at one. Realistically you'd need a shorter barrel -- I am biased to like over/unders for centre of gravity reasons but I also overengineer like a German so me being worried about cog is not necessarily a sign it is important. A two-shot 20 gauge shotgun, however. That part IS important. It is, in fact, all you really need for the vast majority of home robberies, and certainly what Broomstick is worried about. (I would want one for each adult in the house, though)--two rounds, and any break action will do, no matter where the barrels are located.

You can of course always get the barrel sawed off for a relatively reasonable price on a shotgun you've purchased which turns out to be unwieldy. Just please don't ask for a length within one inch of the legal limit--measuring tolerances means people will look at you funny and say no.

Or to say it more simply, everything Skimmer said was right and the two of us are generally in concurrence about guns, but I'm a vastly sillier person.

[Lonestar]

That part IS important. It is, in fact, all you really need for the vast majority of home robberies, and certainly what Broomstick is worried about. (I would want one for each adult in the house, though)--two rounds, and any break action will do, no matter where the barrels are located.

Or, OR...you could not spend $400+ on a OU that is unlikely to be used and spend half of that on a pump action(that has a bigger capacity) that is unlikely to be used. If you seriously think you need two shells to get the job done, then it makes far, far more sense buy a pump with a 5+ round magazine. If not, then screw it, just get a really cheap single shot.

I wouldn't recommend that though.

(seriously, if you're gonna spend $400+ on a OU for home defense, might as well go full retard)

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The argument for any kind of break action at all -- is Skimmer's, Lonestar: Why risk any kind of misfire at all? Why risk any kind of jamming at all? Just get something that can literally sit there loaded for years on end and still reliably fire on a moment's notice. I refer back to his post fairly later on. Just because I'm a silly bitch doesn't mean I don't know something about this, and I basically agree with the assertion that two rounds that will shoot, full stop, and can just be left sitting there loaded indefinitely, is far better than larger capacity. This is the same reason I prefer revolvers to semi-automatic pistols.

[General Zod]

The argument for any kind of break action at all -- is Skimmer's, Lonestar: Why risk any kind of misfire at all? Why risk any kind of jamming at all? Just get something that can literally sit there loaded for years on end and still reliably fire on a moment's notice. I refer back to his post fairly later on. Just because I'm a silly bitch doesn't mean I don't know something about this, and I basically agree with the assertion that two rounds that will shoot, full stop, and can just be left sitting there loaded indefinitely, is far better than larger capacity. This is the same reason I prefer revolvers to semi-automatic pistols.

Why would you leave a loaded weapon lying around your house?

[Zeropoint]

Why would you leave a loaded weapon lying around your house?

Well, you wouldn't leave one "lying around" if you were a responsible person. However, you might properly store a loaded weapon so that in a life-threatening emergency situation, when mere moments can make the difference between life and death, you don't have to fumble around loading it.

If the gun is in good condition and stored so it won't get knocked around, there's not really any danger of it going off accidentally; it certainly won't just decide to fire on its own.

Obviously, if you have kids (or irresponsible adults) around, you can't leave a loaded gun accessible, and shouldn't even have both unloaded guns and ammunition accessible. In that case, however, there are quick-acting combination locks or small gun safes available, allowing a loaded gun to be stored safely unavailable to unauthorized users.

It may be worth considering storing the gun either with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber (not an option on a break-action weapon) or with the muzzle pointed at a big sandbag or something--a house fire can make ammunition "cook off" and if the shell/cartridge is in the chamber, it will leave the gun with all the destructive force that it would have if intentionally fired. Contrary to movie depictions, a shell or cartridge which goes off without the support of the chamber just bursts ineffectively. The fragments could put out an eye but otherwise would be unlikely to cause an injury serious enough to warrant a trip to the emergency room.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that a gun left out in the open is going to collect dust. I doubt that even decades' worth of household dust would noticeably affect the operation of a pump gun, but it would give you another thing to clean.
I suppose a whole magazine cooking off in a steel-framed handgun could produce dangerous fragments, but I've never seen anyone test that.

[General Zod]

Why would you leave a loaded weapon lying around your house?

Well, you wouldn't leave one "lying around" if you were a responsible person. However, you might properly store a loaded weapon so that in a life-threatening emergency situation, when mere moments can make the difference between life and death, you don't have to fumble around loading it.

If the gun is in good condition and stored so it won't get knocked around, there's not really any danger of it going off accidentally; it certainly won't just decide to fire on its own.

Obviously, if you have kids (or irresponsible adults) around, you can't leave a loaded gun accessible, and shouldn't even have both unloaded guns and ammunition accessible. In that case, however, there are quick-acting combination locks or small gun safes available, allowing a loaded gun to be stored safely unavailable to unauthorized users.

It may be worth considering storing the gun either with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber (not an option on a break-action weapon) or with the muzzle pointed at a big sandbag or something--a house fire can make ammunition "cook off" and if the shell/cartridge is in the chamber, it will leave the gun with all the destructive force that it would have if intentionally fired. Contrary to movie depictions, a shell or cartridge which goes off without the support of the chamber just bursts ineffectively. The fragments could put out an eye but otherwise would be unlikely to cause an injury serious enough to warrant a trip to the emergency room.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that a gun left out in the open is going to collect dust. I doubt that even decades' worth of household dust would noticeably affect the operation of a pump gun, but it would give you another thing to clean.
I suppose a whole magazine cooking off in a steel-framed handgun could produce dangerous fragments, but I've never seen anyone test that.

Assuming you remember whether or not it's loaded. If it's not something you check on regularly it's easy to forget if you put a shell in it or not.

[Zeropoint]

That's why one of the cardinal rules of gun safety is to treat every gun as if it were loaded.

It's also why the first thing you do when you pick up a gun is CHECK whether it's loaded, because being wrong in either direction can have terrible consequences.

[Lonestar]

The argument for any kind of break action at all -- is Skimmer's, Lonestar: Why risk any kind of misfire at all? Why risk any kind of jamming at all?

Modern pump actions, especially the ones being mentioned in this thread, essentially never have faults. They might after thousands of rounds. We both know that Broom is not going to put thousands of rounds through it. I'm being conservative when I say that. I've fired pump action shotguns that have had literally thousands of rounds put through them without having problems with them.

Just get something that can literally sit there loaded for years on end and still reliably fire on a moment's notice. I refer back to his post fairly later on. Just because I'm a silly bitch doesn't mean I don't know something about this,

Claiming that you can reasonably expect a fault in modern pump actions is sorta the opposite of "knowing somethi.g about this".

and I basically agree with the assertion that two rounds that will shoot, full stop, and can just be left sitting there loaded indefinitely, is far better than larger capacity.

If two rounds are all you need, then frankly, one round is all you need.


The problem is, that's bullshit. The whole thing falls apart if there are two people breaking in and she dumps both shells into one person, or Broom is shooting a low-recoil round(so she doesn't overpenetrate and kill her neighbors) then the guy's concealment is effectively cover.

But hey, at least she's bought a OU for your bourgie asthetic sensibilities, right?

This is the same reason I prefer revolvers to semi-automatic pistols.

This is a bullshit claim as well. The 1911 fired 6000 rounds during it's initial trials without any malfunction compared to the service revolvers. It's better to have 10 9mm rounds in a modern semiautomatic rather than 6 .38spl rounds that may or may not be enough to stop one person. Of course, it's highly unlikely that you'll put six bullets through anyone and they'll be able to walk away...just like it's highly unlikely that a modern pump-action that is maintained will suddenly fail you.

By the way, folks like Massad Ayoob will always recommend a handgun first(since a shotgun is rather unwieldly to carry while answering that "knock on the door at 0300") followed by a pump-action. The only "gun experts" who seriously recommend double-barreled break-actions are, well, you and Joe Biden. Given your commentary about the asthetic appeal to them earlier in the thread, it's really obvious you're reaching to justify being a closet fudd.

[Lonestar]

Why would you leave a loaded weapon lying around your house?

Because there's little point to a home defense firearm if it's locked up, unloaded, and not accessible. If you need a gun right now you probably don't have the time to call 911 and hope that the police get there to save your butt.

I keep my G19 loaded at all times, and when I come home I unlock my safe and remove my (loaded) Mini-14, and place it against the wall.

Assuming you remember whether or not it's loaded. If it's not something you check on regularly it's easy to forget if you put a shell in it or not.

If you're so unfamilar with the 4 Rules that you don't treat every gun as if they're loaded, perhaps you shouldn't be around guns.

[TheFeniX]

You can of course always get the barrel sawed off for a relatively reasonable price on a shotgun you've purchased which turns out to be unwieldy. Just please don't ask for a length within one inch of the legal limit--measuring tolerances means people will look at you funny and say no.

Even having a barrel sawed off professionally isn't a good idea. I don't know of a gun-smith that will do it. Then again, all the gunsmiths I knew retired. There's too many retail shorter barrel shotguns for a good price to bother with after-market chopping.

The argument for any kind of break action at all -- is Skimmer's, Lonestar: Why risk any kind of misfire at all? Why risk any kind of jamming at all? Just get something that can literally sit there loaded for years on end and still reliably fire on a moment's notice. I refer back to his post fairly later on. Just because I'm a silly bitch doesn't mean I don't know something about this, and I basically agree with the assertion that two rounds that will shoot, full stop, and can just be left sitting there loaded indefinitely, is far better than larger capacity. This is the same reason I prefer revolvers to semi-automatic pistols.

No well made gun is going to misfire in the first shot if it's loaded. The issue is the action cycling after the fact. The breach in a pump has a stronger spring and is arguably much better made than a pistol magazine.

The failure point of a pistol isn't the pistol. It's the cheap ass magazines and springs that lose their tension through years of being loaded. Even then, something like a single-stacked Wilson 1911 mag won't have the same problems a high-capacity 9mm magazine will because it doesn't need much tension at all to get the next round to the top of the mag. A pump shotgun is even better in this regard because the spring isn't pushing the round perpendicular to the magazine. Even if your spring was totally shot, you could raise the barrel of a pump and let the weight of the round (and breach cap) get it into position to pump, but this would be about as likely a problem as having both rounds in a breach loader misfire. I have put tens of thousands of rounds through my Mossberg and it is pretty much the cheapest pump they make (my dad got it for under $200 back in 2000). I have never once had a single malfunction with the weapon, even though I have had bad rounds (which is extremely rare for shotgun rounds). The worst I've had was when it was hard to cycle because it had globs that were a combination of gun lubrication, spent powder, and water. Even with all the sludge, I could still chamber another round and keep firing.

I've had more malfunction with my 1911 (another redonculously reliable weapon), but that was always due to cheap/bad ammo. Bad ammo in a pump means cycling the action same as always. But on an automatic pistol, that means stove-pipes and failure to feed (requiring a different action like a "tap>rack" to clear the jam).

But really, holding the action release on a pump and cycling 4-5 rounds through it every couple of months will verify the integrity of the spring. You don't let even the most basic of defense weapons sit untouched for longer than that.

[Zeropoint]

Duchess of Zeon, my experiences with firearms have apparently been different from yours. What kinds of failures have you personally experienced that you can blame on the gun itself, as opposed to problems with the ammunition or inadequate cleaning?

As much shooting as Broomstick and Co. are going to be doing, I'd expect a Mossberg 500 to function perfectly for the rest of their lives with NO cleaning.

[Zaune]

I keep my G19 loaded at all times, and when I come home I unlock my safe and remove my (loaded) Mini-14, and place it against the wall.

A couple of observations come to mind.

1. What the fuck are you afraid of, a plague of zombies?

2. Have you given any thought to the problem of what happens if you sleep through being burgled?

[Broomstick]

As much shooting as Broomstick and Co. are going to be doing, I'd expect a Mossberg 500 to function perfectly for the rest of their lives with NO cleaning.

Even if it could function without cleaning I suspect we'd be cleaning it from time, just because.

[Zeropoint]

Even if it could function without cleaning I suspect we'd be cleaning it from time, just because.

Well, of course you would! I just meant to point out that a quality pump shotgun with dual action bars is a very reliable weapon. Even if it starts to get a little sticky, you can pump it harder; a semi-automatic that only cycles halfway is jammed and needs to be cleared.

Some OLDER weapons, made before we had good coil springs, have various delicate leaf springs that sometimes break. That's why modern guns don't use leaf springs any more.

[Lonestar]

1. What the fuck are you afraid of, a plague of zombies?

A .223 Carbine is more pointable/easier to shoot than a shotgun. By the way, I'm also less likely to kill my neighbors with a .223(which tumbles and breaks up in sheetrock/dry wall) than 00 Buck or 9mm(which tends to sail right through into another apartment).

G19 is my EDC.

2. Have you given any thought to the problem of what happens if you sleep through being burgled?

Considering that I live on the top floor of a apartment building and I deadbolt the door, I'm not a whole heckuva lot worried about that.