Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

Post by mr friendly guy »

No, its not a story about how they underestimated their services industry or how Chinese companies are giving employees fringe benefits and not declaring it as taxable (hence there is consumption which isn't declared). These are actually legitimate concerns I have seen to say their economy is underestimated. This thread is about another aspect of it.

But before I go on, I feel its worth taking a trip down memory lane. Specifically to

This thread in 2007 titled Chinese economy smaller than previously thought where the Chinese economy turned out to be smaller in Purchasing Power Parity terms. Thus there was much gloating because poverty is cool and all that. To be more specific instead of a 10 trillion international dollar economy, China had a 6 trillion international dollar economy. The figures were revised down by the World Bank. In fact the LA Times demonstrated classiness not seen with a totally awesome title such as The Great Fall of China (from which our previous thread linked to).

Before going on, its important to realise there are two ways to compare GDP. Nominal and Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). Now I should point out I like comparing GDP nominal, ie economy by exchange rates where we convert every non US countries GDP in their currency to the value in USD. It prevents the risk of overestimation just like how China's economy was overestimated in 2007 using PPP. PPP by comparison tries to take into account different costs in the countries. So countries with low cost, the same amount of USD go further. Its a complicated procedure and the final unit used is the international dollar. So you can see, PPP runs the risk of overestimation while nominal arguably underestimates (which is why I just compare nominal to be on the safe side). PPP also has other uses. Say if we wanted to compare US economy with the Soviet Union economy. The USSR unlike China doesn't engage in much international trade, so how useful are exchange rates in that case? Problem there. PPP is also useful for historical GDP. Say you want to know if the Qin dynasty had a larger economy than the Roman Empire, you would have to use some PPP terms.

Now since people in that previous thread obviously believed PPP was a decent indicator one would think they might want to know about this new information.

You see the world bank had listed China's economy in 2011 as 11.185 trillion international dollars. linky before they post the new revised figures in. Please also note that these figures are higher than the 10 trillion international dollars it was valued at in 2007 when it was revised down. In other words in 4 years it made up what it "lost". Well since its in PPP and merely reflects that China wasn't as cheap as previously thought, it wasn't actually a loss per se, but we can't let details get in the way of a good gloat.

Every few years the method to convert to PPP terms are updated. Recently the World Bank published their revised GDP PPP figures which can be found here. Long story short the World Bank revised China's GDP up by about 2.3 trillion international dollars. For 2011. Not for last year, for 2011 (which I assume is because it took a long time to gather the data). So fast forward to 2013 the Chinese economy is obviously going to be bigger once they start using this method and revising the GDP PPP figures from 2012 onwards.

What does this mean? Well the following article elaborates.

Financial Times
April 30, 2014 1:01 am
China poised to pass US as world’s leading economic power this year
By Chris Giles, Economics Editor
The US is on the brink of losing its status as the world’s largest economy, and is likely to slip behind China this year, sooner than widely anticipated, according to the world’s leading statistical agencies.
The US has been the global leader since overtaking the UK in 1872. Most economists previously thought China would pull ahead in 2019.

The figures, compiled by the International Comparison Program hosted by the World Bank, are the most authoritative estimates of what money can buy in different countries and are used by most public and private sector organisations, such as the International Monetary Fund. This is the first time they have been updated since 2005.
After extensive research on the prices of goods and services, the ICP concluded that money goes further in poorer countries than it previously thought, prompting it to increase the relative size of emerging market economies.
The estimates of the real cost of living, known as purchasing power parity or PPPs, are recognised as the best way to compare the size of economies rather than using volatile exchange rates, which rarely reflect the true cost of goods and services: on this measure the IMF put US GDP in 2012 at $16.2tn, and China’s at $8.2tn.

In 2005, the ICP thought China’s economy was less than half the size of the US, accounting for only 43 per cent of America’s total. Because of the new methodology – and the fact that China’s economy has grown much more quickly – the research placed China’s GDP at 87 per cent of the US in 2011.
For 2011, the report says: “The US remained the world’s largest economy, but it was closely followed by China when measured using PPPs.”

With the IMF expecting China’s economy to have grown 24 per cent between 2011 and 2014 while the US is expected to expand only 7.6 per cent, China is likely to overtake the US this year.
The figures revolutionise the picture of the world’s economic landscape, boosting the importance of large middle-income countries. India becomes the third-largest economy having previously been in tenth place. The size of its economy almost doubled from 19 per cent of the US in 2005 to 37 per cent in 2011.
Russia, Brazil, Indonesia and Mexico make the top 12 in the global table. In contrast, high costs and lower growth push the UK and Japan further behind the US than in the 2005 tables while Germany improved its relative position a little and Italy remained the same.
The findings will intensify arguments about control over global international organisations such as the World Bank and IMF, which are increasingly out of line with the balance of global economic power.

When looking at the actual consumption per head, the report found the new methodology as well as faster growth in poor countries have “greatly reduced” the gap between rich and poor, “suggesting that the world has become more equal”.
The world’s rich countries still account for 50 per cent of global GDP while containing only 17 per cent of the world’s population.
Having compared the actual cost of living in different countries, the report also found that the four most expensive countries to live in are Switzerland, Norway, Bermuda and Australia, with the cheapest being Egypt, Pakistan, Myanmar and Ethiopia.
Does it change anything? Most probably just interesting if you are interested in economical milestones.In military terms? Well if you expect it to change thats like saying you expect the US Navy to be better than the Royal Navy the moment the US surpassed the British GDP. What about the PRC government? The Chinese government certainly use nominal rather than PPP (as witnessed by the fact they only declared themselves the second largest economy when they surpassed Japan in nominal terms, whereas they could have done so years earlier when they did so in PPP terms).

However for those who love gloating over this stuff with China bashing and dick waving, your dicks just got chopped.

Edit - I would love to see the faces of Gordon Chang, Michael Petis and a few China bears when they hear this.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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the face of one of those china bears

Image

also, how many millions lifted out of poverty? how many left to go?
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Your pic isn't loading madd0c0r.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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mr friendly guy wrote:Your pic isn't loading madd0c0r.
That's because he keeps copy pasting the links wrong. This time he copied over the link to the Wikipedia commons page of the image rather than right clicking on the image and copping its path.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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yeah, really wasn't worth it.

the Brics are risen. alleulia!
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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These days its the MINT countries that are making headlines. Ok Russia is making headlines but for different reasons to economic development. :lol:
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

Post by montypython »

The sheer volume of increasing trade and transactions that China partook in domestically and internationally even 7 years earlier by my observation was already leaning towards the position that the Chinese economic valuation would be closer to the US level of valuation than the economic China bears would have ever reasoned, so I'm not surprised at the news.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Totally expected.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Bit of a necro, but the World Bank has only in this week revised their 2013 GDP figures taking into account this new data.

linky
What it shows is the US has $16.8 trillion international units of GDP PPP while China has $16.157 trillion international units of GDP PPP, while with China's special administrative regions (Hong Kong and Macau) the GDP comes to $16.62 trillion international units. At a predicted growth rate of 7.5% China alone (without the SARs) will have a higher GDP in PPP terms than the US by the end of this year given the US figures suggest they will struggle to make it 2% growth (Reuters). That being said the x-factor is how the Chinese currency behaves.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Chinese currency will likely to continue slowly appreciating. There is nothing that the US could feasibly do to not lose its place. Numbers.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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It is nothing but the logical consequence of one billion people weighed against 320 million. That being said, the GDP per capita is still low.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Also, unless they undertake some sort of reform, I could see the economy stumbling with some "bubbles" bursting. At this point, the Chinese economy is growing basically by brute force, despite endemic structural problems that don't seem sustainable. What I am thinking of particularly is the construction industry; there is all this real estate speculation that leads to construction of these massive apartment complexes that remain completely vacant (it is really creepy-there are thousands and thousands of these things, mostly around the big cities, but occasionally you see them popping up even in the middle of nowhere), and behind it all there is a shady system of kickbacks for Party members (the corruption, too, is rampant, though it seems like they are actually acting to counteract that these days).

So I certainly expect the Chinese to have some serious economic problems in the next decade, unless they make serious efforts to reform. The recent hunt for corrupt Party officials is a positive step, so maybe they will be smart enough to do so.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Thanas wrote:It is nothing but the logical consequence of one billion people weighed against 320 million. That being said, the GDP per capita is still low.
Actually, 1,5 billion. The weighted GDP per capita is medium, not low. Some EU candidates and soon enough even parts of it would have an equal or lower GDP. All post-Soviet nations outside the EU except Russia and Belarus have a lower GDP per capita. Considering 6,5 growth, most of the Europeriphery will be behind China before this decade's over.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Stas Bush wrote:Chinese currency will likely to continue slowly appreciating. There is nothing that the US could feasibly do to not lose its place. Numbers.
In the mid to long term no doubt. However this year it has depreciated. Rumours have said its the central government's way to "punish" some currency speculators who are banking on a rise in RMB.
Thanas wrote:It is nothing but the logical consequence of one billion people weighed against 320 million. That being said, the GDP per capita is still low.
Well an industrialised country can outproduce a non industrialised one even if the latter has a much higher population, but when the latter starts industrialising one would expect it to catch up. The problem is a lot of people do not think like that (ie numbers of the workforce). I swear they tend to think like a "vs match," with arguments like "Japan was predicted to surpass the US, look at them now" without realising the different strengths between the two countries. That is Japan with its smaller population would have needed to rely on a really high GDP / capita to surpass the US (quite difficult since there are way more poor and middle income countries than ones with ridiculous high GDP/capita such as Norway), while China with its larger population only relies on a middle income level of GDP / capita to match US total GDP, (from memory if China had a GDP / capita at the upper end of what the World Bank considers "middle income" level, it would match US total GDP).

BTW - China has a middle income GDP / capita, not a low one as per World Bank definitions.
Ziggy Stardust wrote:Also, unless they undertake some sort of reform, I could see the economy stumbling with some "bubbles" bursting. At this point, the Chinese economy is growing basically by brute force, despite endemic structural problems that don't seem sustainable. What I am thinking of particularly is the construction industry; there is all this real estate speculation that leads to construction of these massive apartment complexes that remain completely vacant (it is really creepy-there are thousands and thousands of these things, mostly around the big cities, but occasionally you see them popping up even in the middle of nowhere), and behind it all there is a shady system of kickbacks for Party members (the corruption, too, is rampant, though it seems like they are actually acting to counteract that these days).

So I certainly expect the Chinese to have some serious economic problems in the next decade, unless they make serious efforts to reform. The recent hunt for corrupt Party officials is a positive step, so maybe they will be smart enough to do so.
This is quite complicated, but we can derive a few factors that might explain things.

1. Its actually cheaper for China to build these apartments now rather than years down the road when other developing nations become richer (India I am looking at you) and also compete for the same resources. China needs these apartments because their population is urbanising at a fast rate. Around slightly less than 50% is still rural. Compare this to a developed nation where its around 20%. So plenty of buildings need to be built in urban areas.

2. The problem is, richer Chinese or those willing to leverage invest in these properties more so than tenants, ie those who the property are meant to target. There are numerous reasons why they think its a good investment, but for now its enough to know that they like property. A lot.

The government has tried numerous things to get the property to real tenants, including limiting credit, limiting the number of properties you can own, and increasing supply with cheaper housing. Its still a struggle. However with falling property prices, people actually move into the properties, and this has been reported to have occurred already in Ordos the most famous ghost city.

3. Why don't the owners simply rent the property out?

Good question and the answer appears to be a cultural thing. Essentially Chinese buyers don't like second hand goods and after having someone live in a property it is viewed in a similar manner. That is its now "second hand" and will affect the resell value. Fun fact - This dislike of buying second hand goods is given as one of the many reasons E-bay failed to take off in the Chinese markets against local competitors. This is going to become problematic for the investors since the government has already indicated it will accept unpopularity and let these investors take their losses.

I do actually have a mad idea which might actually help. Allow negative gearing but with a twist. Yeah I know negative gearing forces property prices up, at least in countries which don't perceive renting as making the house "second hand." So allow negative gearing for all properties constructed before a certain date. This way it doesn't add to factors forcing up prices of property constructed after this date. Now the way my idea works is, property prices have started coming down in some areas, and this will put pressure on those who are leveraged out. The way to keep paying the bills is either sell the property and take a hit, or rent it out and keep going. I think with a few fiat declarations of confidence from government that second hand property is just as good as brand new ones and point out that its not an issue in developed nations etc, we might be able get the Chinese public to accept that and start renting.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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mr friendly guy wrote:In the mid to long term no doubt. However this year it has depreciated. Rumours have said its the central government's way to "punish" some currency speculators who are banking on a rise in RMB.
It is a fluke on the graph.
mr friendly guy wrote:quite difficult since there are way more poor and middle income countries than ones with ridiculous high GDP/capita such as Norway
Norway has it not just because industrialized, but also because of resources. It is pretty much like the USA in that regard, a first world country that also has lots of natural resources inside. When China industrialized, many of its resources will become available for extraction on a new technical level, too. Contrast this with Japan, which had limited resources to begin with and nothing changed.
mr friendly guy wrote:from memory if China had a GDP / capita at the upper end of what the World Bank considers "middle income" level, it would match US total GDP
You mean like China is doing now? Or you mean nominal? Because, PPP-adjusted GDPs do match already.
Image
mr friendly guy wrote:I think with a few fiat declarations of confidence from government that second hand property is just as good as brand new ones and point out that its not an issue in developed nations etc, we might be able get the Chinese public to accept that and start renting.
Or maybe not, in which case it will be a society heavily oriented towards ownership. So what? The rentiers are despicable; the renters are paying the same as they would for a mortgage or government loan, sometimes more, to the rentier, for nothing. If they don't rent, and they don't end up with 50% of the population living in long-term rentals (don't get me wrong: renting is convenient for migrants, and short-term rentals for a few years are quite fine), then I'd consider it an even greater success. Short-term rentals in China, now, seem to be available. It is the 'unlimited' rentals which pose a problem. In my view such a thing shouldn't be, so maybe it's only good.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Stas Bush wrote:You mean like China is doing now? Or you mean nominal? Because, PPP-adjusted GDPs do match already.
I was thinking in terms of nominal. Basically even if China has a higher end of middle income level (as per World Bank 2010 definitions) it would match the US GDP. Whereas for Japan to do the same it would need several times US GDP/capita, which is more difficult.

On another note, this argument also kills the "China won't become a superpower because it will become old before it becomes rich." There are other factors which can limit China becoming a superpower, that is mastering modern military technology, environmental concerns etc. However becoming old before becoming rich even if true isn't one of them, because even if China is not rich (per World Bank definitions), it will have an economy to match the US in nominal terms, yet alone PPP terms.
Stas Bush wrote:Or maybe not, in which case it will be a society heavily oriented towards ownership. So what? The rentiers are despicable; the renters are paying the same as they would for a mortgage or government loan, sometimes more, to the rentier, for nothing. If they don't rent, and they don't end up with 50% of the population living in long-term rentals (don't get me wrong: renting is convenient for migrants, and short-term rentals for a few years are quite fine), then I'd consider it an even greater success. Short-term rentals in China, now, seem to be available. It is the 'unlimited' rentals which pose a problem. In my view such a thing shouldn't be, so maybe it's only good.
I wasn't thinking in terms of temporary or permanent rent, although that would depend on the individual. I was just thinking in terms of filling up these unused property, so at least they are being used for an economic activity. I don't have a thing against "long term rental" per se, although I personally would opt for owning my own home and only use temporary renting, but its up to the individual to work out which one is better for them.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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mr friendly guy wrote: 1. Its actually cheaper for China to build these apartments now rather than years down the road when other developing nations become richer (India I am looking at you) and also compete for the same resources. China needs these apartments because their population is urbanising at a fast rate. Around slightly less than 50% is still rural. Compare this to a developed nation where its around 20%. So plenty of buildings need to be built in urban areas.

2. The problem is, richer Chinese or those willing to leverage invest in these properties more so than tenants, ie those who the property are meant to target. There are numerous reasons why they think its a good investment, but for now its enough to know that they like property. A lot.

The government has tried numerous things to get the property to real tenants, including limiting credit, limiting the number of properties you can own, and increasing supply with cheaper housing. Its still a struggle. However with falling property prices, people actually move into the properties, and this has been reported to have occurred already in Ordos the most famous ghost city.

3. Why don't the owners simply rent the property out?

Good question and the answer appears to be a cultural thing. Essentially Chinese buyers don't like second hand goods and after having someone live in a property it is viewed in a similar manner. That is its now "second hand" and will affect the resell value. Fun fact - This dislike of buying second hand goods is given as one of the many reasons E-bay failed to take off in the Chinese markets against local competitors. This is going to become problematic for the investors since the government has already indicated it will accept unpopularity and let these investors take their losses.
Thanks for the more detailed analysis of the situation. I admit that my only knowledge of it at all comes from being in China and seeing the buildings and asking locals what the deal with all the big empty buildings was. I never really knew that much about the context and background behind them.
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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mr friendly guy wrote:while China with its larger population only relies on a middle income level of GDP / capita to match US total GDP, (from memory if China had a GDP / capita at the upper end of what the World Bank considers "middle income" level, it would match US total GDP).
But would be numbers comparable then? A lot what nation produces is "wasted" on the population - items that from economical point of view are 'lost' to upkeep and don't contribute anything more to economy. Things like food, water, clothing, etc. Though, I guess it's balanced by lower needs of Chinese population and the fact a lot of US GDP is fictional work in finance and law sectors.
1. Its actually cheaper for China to build these apartments now rather than years down the road when other developing nations become richer (India I am looking at you) and also compete for the same resources. China needs these apartments because their population is urbanising at a fast rate. Around slightly less than 50% is still rural. Compare this to a developed nation where its around 20%. So plenty of buildings need to be built in urban areas.
But is it good idea of building them now? For one, old buildings are much less energy and material efficient - adding to running costs. For second, here, we had a lot of buildings built around 1989 go into non-use for a few years... And while ones in use held up fine, here's one example how abandoned one will look in 20 years:

Image

[it wasn't demolished because the area was voted off limits for high construction recently and the owning company can skirt the law by claiming they are just 'repairing' existing structure]
I do actually have a mad idea which might actually help. Allow negative gearing but with a twist. Yeah I know negative gearing forces property prices up, at least in countries which don't perceive renting as making the house "second hand." So allow negative gearing for all properties constructed before a certain date.
Eh, what about simple ad valorem tax for any property above the first? Or unused properties?
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

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Irbis wrote: But would be numbers comparable then? A lot what nation produces is "wasted" on the population - items that from economical point of view are 'lost' to upkeep and don't contribute anything more to economy. Things like food, water, clothing, etc. Though, I guess it's balanced by lower needs of Chinese population and the fact a lot of US GDP is fictional work in finance and law sectors.
Hard to say, but the average Chinese citizen also consumes less.
But is it good idea of building them now? For one, old buildings are much less energy and material efficient - adding to running costs. For second, here, we had a lot of buildings built around 1989 go into non-use for a few years... And while ones in use held up fine, here's one example how abandoned one will look in 20 years:
In terms of short term benefits, I would say so because it will be cheaper to build now before other developing nations also has a construction boom. It depends on whether they can fill these buildings though. Some buildings can also be constructed reasonably efficiently with prefabricated parts.

In terms of longer term benefits, its harder to say because you are speculating on how much more energy efficient buildings can become. Now China can make some energy efficient buildings, see some show piece skyscrapers. Unfortunately most buildings will not be so but then China also predicts to increase its energy production by then too.
Eh, what about simple ad valorem tax for any property above the first? Or unused properties?
Well they have trialled a property tax only for parts of Shanghai and Chongqing. There is talk about expanding it.

I do think taxing unused properties is a good idea. It will encourage renting out the property. Taxing properties above the first (I assume you mean on purchasing) will help keep prices down, but won't necessarily encourage people who already own multiple properties to rent them out.
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mr friendly guy
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Re: Chinese economy bigger than originally thought

Post by mr friendly guy »

The other thing I forgot to mention earlier about GDP is that in the last few years everyone has agreed on a revised way of calculating GDP (that is it includes things previously thought of as costs such as R & D, are now classified as investments). This isn't a way of artificially boosting GDP to make the numbers look better. It is designed to be a better reflection of what goes on in the economy in the 21st century compared to what went on when GDP was initially created.

Not all countries have implemented this new method of calculation. The US added about $500 billion to its nominal and PPP figures last year when it adopted this new method (the changes occurred retrospectively, so earlier figures are now changed to include this new method of calculation). China is supposed to implement this new method of calculation by the end of this year. What this means is

1. The figures we are comparing between the two countries so far, are using different methods of calculation - the US adopting the earlier measures before China does. The new method will generally increase the final GDP figures of countries using it.

2. If China does implement this new method we can also expect its GDP figures to be even higher. Depending on who you talk to, China's R & D in 2012 is between $200-$300 billion (depending on whether you use the nominal or PPP figure). * This R & D is now added to GDP figures.

Another reason why China will most likely surpass the US in PPP terms this year.

* These figures are from different sources and the higher figure seems to imply it was using PPP terms rather than nominal.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
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