Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
A lot of those 'rescue operations' were actually scheduled patrols, they just tacked on the 'look of dumb shit' on top of the patrol, as they should. It wasn't like the patrol was storming enemy positions explicitly looking for Bergdahl. More like an all points bulletin, that in the course of your other duties, keep an eye out for him. Not sure you can pin the deaths of those other soldiers on him.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Some were, but we know for sure that SOF units were brought in specifically for the man hunt. As for the patrols would they have gone into villages to search buildings through choke points and easily mineable routes if they hadn't had to "look for dumb shit"?
I agree that Bergdahl can't be help personally responsible for those deaths, who knows what would have happend had they conducted their patrols as usual that day. Maybe some of them took less dangerous routes because the Tailban thought they would be going over their routine territory that day and they missed an ambush. However, if I were Bergdahl those "what ifs" would be weighing heavy on my mind and I see nothing wrong with the family members blaming him for those deaths outside of criminal proceedings.
I agree that Bergdahl can't be help personally responsible for those deaths, who knows what would have happend had they conducted their patrols as usual that day. Maybe some of them took less dangerous routes because the Tailban thought they would be going over their routine territory that day and they missed an ambush. However, if I were Bergdahl those "what ifs" would be weighing heavy on my mind and I see nothing wrong with the family members blaming him for those deaths outside of criminal proceedings.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
And then they all die from an IED. I can play with what ifs too.Borgholio wrote:Rescue operations that would not have been needed had he not walked off the base.How? They died in rescue operations;
No, we shouldn't hold him responsible because soldiers being killed happens in war. You are looking for someone to blame without checking whether they hold actual guilt. Hint: real life things seldom have a clear cut culprit, and if they do we call them crimes. I'd like to see how he's legally responsible for the deaths of his fellow soldiers. Not leaving the base and not desertion, but specifically his comrades' deaths."We shouldn't hold him responsible for people dying because he wandered away from base since they would have been killed anyways..." Really? What the fuck are you smoking?They were in conventional military operations; even if we assume Bergdahl was never captured, they'd get killed elsewhere or their Humvee would hit an IED or something similar.
Yeah, conscience is often heavy over far smaller things. I wouldn't want to be him either.Patroklos wrote:However, if I were Bergdahl those "what ifs" would be weighing heavy on my mind and I see nothing wrong with the family members blaming him for those deaths outside of criminal proceedings.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
You started with the "what-ifs" by making the substantial assumption that everybody who died looking for him would have died in some other way. You have no way of knowing exactly what would have happened, so why are you trying to handwave the deaths of several soldiers as inevitable?And then they all die from an IED. I can play with what ifs too.
Again you're not getting the fact that if they died as a direct result of searching for him, then he IS responsible for their deaths if he went missing due to an act of stupidity or desertion. If they went on patrol anyways and looking for him was a secondary objective, then ok he's not really responsible since they might have died on that patrol with or without looking for him. But if the whole point of going out was to search for him, then yes he is responsible. If you do something stupid or criminal and someone else gets hurt or killed in the process, then legally YOU can very much be held accountable for it.Not leaving the base and not desertion, but specifically his comrades' deaths.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
You'll have a devil of a time proving that those soldiers on patrol died explicitly because part of the patrol mission was looking for Bergdahl and that that part of the mission was the cause (instead of something more generic).
Soldiers run the risk of dying in a war and just because they are on a patrol in the same region and get hit has fuckall to do with Bergdahl. You'd have to show a lot more precise causality than that.
Soldiers run the risk of dying in a war and just because they are on a patrol in the same region and get hit has fuckall to do with Bergdahl. You'd have to show a lot more precise causality than that.
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Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
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GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
To wit, see here.
Money quote:
Money quote:
MYTH: Six to eight U.S. soldiers died looking for Bergdahl
Again, this talking point has incredible resonance, because it feels like the kind of thing that really could be true. But as The New York Times has noted, the facts are actually far less clear. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel has commented that "I do not know of specific circumstances or details of U.S. solders dying as a result of efforts to find and rescue Sergeant Bergdahl." And blaming Bergdahl's disappearance for every death in Patika province during one of the most deadly periods in the war simply doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. (As an aside, part of the reason we know what we know about Bergdahl's disappearance comes from the Wikileaks trove provided by Army leaker Chelsea Manning – further evidence of how valuable that leak was and continues to be.)
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Right, that's what I'm saying. If they died while on normal patrol then it's pretty much "Shit happens in war". But if they were ordered out specifically to search for him, then that's where he could get screwed. I think the key evidence will be the unit's CO stating whether he told the men to be on the lookout for Bergdahl while on normal patrol, or if it was intended to be a rescue mission.You'll have a devil of a time proving that those soldiers on patrol died explicitly because part of the patrol mission was looking for Bergdahl and that that part of the mission was the cause (instead of something more generic).
Oh I agree. My point was simply that IF it was a dedicated rescue mission then he should face the penalty for the deaths that occurred while they were trying to find him. If it was just a normal patrol then he can't possibly be fingered for that.Soldiers run the risk of dying in a war and just because they are on a patrol in the same region and get hit has fuckall to do with Bergdahl. You'd have to show a lot more precise causality than that.
Let's look at it this way. Say your house is on fire and you know there's nobody else home, but you lie to the firefighters that you have a baby brother upstairs. They rush in to the house and search for him in vain, only to have the house collapse on them and they die. If it came out that you had no baby brother, you would more than likely be sent to prison for their deaths even though firefighters die in fires all the time. In that instance, they may not have died if it weren't for you and it does not matter if they may have died later or not.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
You are way behind on your talking points. Over a dozens of army soldiers in the area at that time leading these patrols have come forward to state they were specifically tasked briefed to find him and had their priorities and routes changed to this purpose. Whole spec ops detachments were brought in specifically for this purpose as you would expect.Edi wrote:To wit, see here.
Money quote:
MYTH: Six to eight U.S. soldiers died looking for Bergdahl
Again, this talking point has incredible resonance, because it feels like the kind of thing that really could be true. But as The New York Times has noted, the facts are actually far less clear. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel has commented that "I do not know of specific circumstances or details of U.S. solders dying as a result of efforts to find and rescue Sergeant Bergdahl." And blaming Bergdahl's disappearance for every death in Patika province during one of the most deadly periods in the war simply doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. (As an aside, part of the reason we know what we know about Bergdahl's disappearance comes from the Wikileaks trove provided by Army leaker Chelsea Manning – further evidence of how valuable that leak was and continues to be.)
There is no dispute that lots of people and resources were bent to finding Bergdahl immediately after his disappearance. Whether you want to blame deaths in that area on him or not doesn't change that.
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
O. My. God. What happened to the melodramatic "NO MAN GETS LEFT BEHIND" motto that's touted so often and so proudly by american military shows, films and other assorted propaganda? Dying in the line of duty while trying to rescue a captured comrade, isn't that something that's also portrayed as one of the noblest of causes? "But durr, the guy went of loitering somewhere". so what? Tell me, just because some guy was careless, stupid or whatever, is that an excuse enough to let the enemy (the fucking headchopping Taliban BTW) have his way with him?
That's so fucking pathetic, y'all should be ashamed of yourself.
That's so fucking pathetic, y'all should be ashamed of yourself.
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Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Captured is the line of duty is the meme, we shall see if that is the case here.
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
It doesn't matter, a comrade captured by the enemy is a comrade captured by the enemy. Would you have been fine and dandy if there had surfaced a video where the Taliban cut his head off like they did with Nick Berg just because "uh, he left his post, so he had it coming"? Pathetic.
People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)
Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula
O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
"I do not know" is pretty shaky grounds to state that it's a myth.Edi wrote:To wit, see here.
Money quote:
MYTH: Six to eight U.S. soldiers died looking for Bergdahl
Again, this talking point has incredible resonance, because it feels like the kind of thing that really could be true. But as The New York Times has noted, the facts are actually far less clear. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel has commented that "I do not know of specific circumstances or details of U.S. solders dying as a result of efforts to find and rescue Sergeant Bergdahl." And blaming Bergdahl's disappearance for every death in Patika province during one of the most deadly periods in the war simply doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. (As an aside, part of the reason we know what we know about Bergdahl's disappearance comes from the Wikileaks trove provided by Army leaker Chelsea Manning – further evidence of how valuable that leak was and continues to be.)
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
But are we rescuing him or capturing what amounts to another enemy objective at that point? We could not care less about the well being of the traitor or deserter in these cases but rather about PR. In the case of conscripted armeis capturing such fugitives (and legally that's what they are) was important because you needed to shown your own that there was no benefit to deserting but just a short fall and a quick stop.Metahive wrote:It doesn't matter, a comrade captured by the enemy is a comrade captured by the enemy. Would you have been fine and dandy if there had surfaced a video where the Taliban cut his head off like they did with Nick Berg just because "uh, he left his post, so he had it coming"? Pathetic.
It's prettyclear the Army Tillmaned this story to avoid declaring him AWOL at the very least. Had he been billed as that from the beginning the public cry for "rescue" would have been much less. The need to get him back for the PR reason you mention would have been the same.
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
False analogy, as in that situation the deliberate lie constitutes intent for that outcome. That is missing in Bergdahl's case.Borgholio wrote:Let's look at it this way. Say your house is on fire and you know there's nobody else home, but you lie to the firefighters that you have a baby brother upstairs. They rush in to the house and search for him in vain, only to have the house collapse on them and they die. If it came out that you had no baby brother, you would more than likely be sent to prison for their deaths even though firefighters die in fires all the time. In that instance, they may not have died if it weren't for you and it does not matter if they may have died later or not.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp
GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan
The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Uh, no, I'm pretty certain the hypotheticals started when someone said that he was responsible for the deaths of his fellows, with the clear implication that he wouldn't be if only he hadn't left the base.Borgholio wrote:You started with the "what-ifs" by making the substantial assumption that everybody who died looking for him would have died in some other way. You have no way of knowing exactly what would have happened, so why are you trying to handwave the deaths of several soldiers as inevitable?
Why should he be responsible? Why shouldn't, say, the commanders who ordered the patrols be more responsible than him, given that despite everything else the choice of what to do was still in their hands?Again you're not getting the fact that if they died as a direct result of searching for him, then he IS responsible for their deaths if he went missing due to an act of stupidity or desertion. If they went on patrol anyways and looking for him was a secondary objective, then ok he's not really responsible since they might have died on that patrol with or without looking for him. But if the whole point of going out was to search for him, then yes he is responsible. If you do something stupid or criminal and someone else gets hurt or killed in the process, then legally YOU can very much be held accountable for it.Not leaving the base and not desertion, but specifically his comrades' deaths.
And I also totally wuv that I asked for evidence of legal responsibility, which you didn't provide. You may have missed my request, obviously, because it was in the part you chose not to quote.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Perhaps you're right, but do you at least see where I'm coming from? Deliberately taking an inappropriate action that results in someone else's death requires taking responsibility for those deaths.False analogy, as in that situation the deliberate lie constitutes intent for that outcome. That is missing in Bergdahl's case.
Certainly wasn't me, since I never said the WAS responsible.Uh, no, I'm pretty certain the hypotheticals started when someone said that he was responsible for the deaths of his fellows, with the clear implication that he wouldn't be if only he hadn't left the base.
Because they had no idea what happened. They presumed him to be kidnapped, captured, or lost. They were treating him like a soldier who went MIA and it was their duty to go look for him. Only after the fact did the accusations of desertion become known.Why should he be responsible? Why shouldn't, say, the commanders who ordered the patrols be more responsible than him, given that despite everything else the choice of what to do was still in their hands?
I didn't miss it, I ignored it. We don't know enough about the circumstances about the patrols and the rescue mission to say if he is responsible or not. But since you are probably looking for the letter of the law, here is the Manual for Courts Martial from 2012. It's a big PDF, so I apologize. Go to page 294 - Article 85 where it talks about the legal penalties regarding desertion.And I also totally wuv that I asked for evidence of legal responsibility, which you didn't provide. You may have missed my request, obviously, because it was in the part you chose not to quote.
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/MCM-2012.pdf
According to the UCMJ, desertion (just by itself) in a time of war can warrant death. It remains to be seen if the court will consider this a time of war or not. In either case, they could decide if his actions resulted in the deaths of his fellow soldiers or not, just like a civilian court can hold a DUI suspect for additional charges if he kills someone while driving drunk.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Borgholio wrote:Certainly wasn't me, since I never said the WAS responsible.
Man, good thing we cleared that up, eh?a little birdie wrote:His alleged activities resulted in the deaths of fellow soldiers.
Any evidence they would have acted differently if they knew he'd walked off base? I thought that a search like this was SOP for anyone who goes missing all of a sudden.Because they had no idea what happened. They presumed him to be kidnapped, captured, or lost. They were treating him like a soldier who went MIA and it was their duty to go look for him. Only after the fact did the accusations of desertion become known.Why should he be responsible? Why shouldn't, say, the commanders who ordered the patrols be more responsible than him, given that despite everything else the choice of what to do was still in their hands?
Borgholio, once more with feeling wrote:We don't know enough about the circumstances about the patrols and the rescue mission to say if he is responsible or not.
I'd love some concillation of these two.the aforementioned birdie wrote:His alleged activities resulted in the deaths of fellow soldiers.
I'll avoid the civilian comparison as irrelevant, but I read the PDF, both articles. Here goes:http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/MCM-2012.pdf
According to the UCMJ, desertion (just by itself) in a time of war can warrant death. It remains to be seen if the court will consider this a time of war or not. In either case, they could decide if his actions resulted in the deaths of his fellow soldiers or not, just like a civilian court can hold a DUI suspect for additional charges if he kills someone while driving drunk.
1) Neither desertion nor AWOL specify that any casualties during the search and rescue effort are aggravating circumstances. I think this settles our debate on responsibility.
2) Desertion requires intent, whereas AWOL explicitly states that intent is irrelevant. I think that the court would rather try him on the far lesser AWOL charge (the penalty for which doesn't even reach as high as dishonorable discharge) than try and establish intent after five years.
3) Let's assume they find Bergdahl guilty of desertion, against all odds. There is, allow me the language, no motherfucking way in hell they will sentence him to death. We have exactly zero death sentences in the War on Terror so far; hell, we have zero cases where people received the max peactime sentence of DD, severance of benefits, and five years in the can. Execution for desertion is also an empty letter; since the ACW, no death sentence was actually carried through with the exception of Eddie Slovik in WW2. All others were lessened or otherwise ignored.
I think the long and short is: you read up about desertion on Wikipedia a bit, and you find it inconceivable to think of problems without casting blame on a convenient target (hilariously enough, this is not necessarily your fault). Unfortunately, I did none of these things.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
"Alleged", dumbass. Meaning IF he deserted and IF they sent a rescue party just for him THEN the deaths could be attributed to him.Man, good thing we cleared that up, eh?
Interesting article:Any evidence they would have acted differently if they knew he'd walked off base? I thought that a search like this was SOP for anyone who goes missing all of a sudden.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19489285/ns/u ... 8fcSrFfS9k
They don't seem to care that much about deserters.
Once again, this goes back to the magic word "alleged". Take two scenarios:I'd love some concillation of these two.
1. He is off duty in the barracks. He decides to split. He takes off over the wire and runs away. Later when called up for duty he doesn't show up. They search the base and find the note he left in his tent. He's officially a deserter. How hard does the military search for deserters? Not very.
2. He was manning a guard post that was silently overrun by insurgents and he was carried away as a trophy. When they find out he has been taken, they launch a massive rescue effort to bring him back safely.
Difference? I think so.
Hardly. Do you think that the military justice system is SO DIFFERENT that it doesn't care about deaths caused as a result of your actions?I'll avoid the civilian comparison as irrelevant,
Nope. It doesn't have to list every single aggravating circumstance for a judge or presiding officer to add them.1) Neither desertion nor AWOL specify that any casualties during the search and rescue effort are aggravating circumstances. I think this settles our debate on responsibility.
They have the letter he wrote and the emails to his parents that signify intent. But you're right, they COULD just go for AWOL and avoid the whole mess.2) Desertion requires intent, whereas AWOL explicitly states that intent is irrelevant. I think that the court would rather try him on the far lesser AWOL charge (the penalty for which doesn't even reach as high as dishonorable discharge) than try and establish intent after five years.
Yes, I agree it's next to impossible that they'll execute him. They COULD though, if they really wanted to. That's part of what I said originally, desertion can be a very serious charge.3) Let's assume they find Bergdahl guilty of desertion, against all odds. There is, allow me the language, no motherfucking way in hell they will sentence him to death. We have exactly zero death sentences in the War on Terror so far; hell, we have zero cases where people received the max peactime sentence of DD, severance of benefits, and five years in the can. Execution for desertion is also an empty letter; since the ACW, no death sentence was actually carried through with the exception of Eddie Slovik in WW2. All others were lessened or otherwise ignored.
I think the long and short of it is that you're living in a fantasy land. I have said repeatedly that he should only be held accountable for the deaths of his fellow soldiers if they died specifically while looking for him AFTER he committed a military crime and ran away. If it was just a normal patrol then he should not face those charges. Why is that so hard for you to understand?I think the long and short is: you read up about desertion on Wikipedia a bit, and you find it inconceivable to think of problems without casting blame on a convenient target (hilariously enough, this is not necessarily your fault). Unfortunately, I did none of these things.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
To be honest, in large part what happened is that the exchange happened while Obama was still in office. Many of the talking heads in both media and politics who are now decrying his release were clamouring for his rescue by any means necessary prior to the announced exchange. For them, the best case scenario would have been a smash-and-grab rescue with a Republican President, followed by a negotiated release with a Republican President, followed by Bergdahl getting beheaded while Obama's still President, with Bergdahl getting beheaded with a Republican President and Bergdahl getting released while Obama is still President bringing up the rear as their worst case scenarios. Bergdahl's actual well-being is pretty much irrelevant to them, so long as whatever happens to him can be spun as Obama failing.Metahive wrote:O. My. God. What happened to the melodramatic "NO MAN GETS LEFT BEHIND" motto that's touted so often and so proudly by american military shows, films and other assorted propaganda? Dying in the line of duty while trying to rescue a captured comrade, isn't that something that's also portrayed as one of the noblest of causes? "But durr, the guy went of loitering somewhere". so what? Tell me, just because some guy was careless, stupid or whatever, is that an excuse enough to let the enemy (the fucking headchopping Taliban BTW) have his way with him?
That's so fucking pathetic, y'all should be ashamed of yourself.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Here's something amusing in this sentence: according to what follows below in your own post, he did actually intend to desert. It's also apparent from other posters in this thread that the military did actually send search and rescue patrols. Which means that both conditionals are satisfied. So, should I suppose that you support exactly what I initially thought?Borgholio wrote:"Alleged", dumbass. Meaning IF he deserted and IF they sent a rescue party just for him THEN the deaths could be attributed to him.
I read your article; the one and only specific case mentioned is a dude who deserted in Fort Bragg. Desertions in Iraq and Afghanistan are not mentioned at all. Are you trying to magically expand the article's meaning from what it states (deserters in the States are left alone) to what you'd like it to say (people leave their post in active deployment and the military doesn't give a shit)? What, were you hoping I wouldn't know that Fort Bragg was in the States? FYI, at this point I'd totally expect this from you. Don't forget to call me a dumbass again, it's funny.Interesting article:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19489285/ns/u ... 8fcSrFfS9k
They don't seem to care that much about deserters.
Okay, your position (assuming I parsed this piece of totrurous pointlessness correctly) is so: the military assumed he was 'legit' captured, and that's why they went through all the trouble of rescuing him. Had they known he'd just fucked off the base and happened to stumble on the enemy, they wouldn't care. Which you base on the most hilariously inappropriate article ever, as I said.1. He is off duty in the barracks. He decides to split. He takes off over the wire and runs away. Later when called up for duty he doesn't show up. They search the base and find the note he left in his tent. He's officially a deserter. How hard does the military search for deserters? Not very.
2. He was manning a guard post that was silently overrun by insurgents and he was carried away as a trophy. When they find out he has been taken, they launch a massive rescue effort to bring him back safely.
Hey, here's another scenario: it doesn't matter, once you're in the enemy's hands the army will search for you no matter what you did, because it has the institutional duty to do so. It's a heartwarming sentiment, I've just invented a catchy slogan for it: "No man left behind".
It is different enough that I have no reason to believe it uses the same standards to judge anything as the civilian system. You know, that's the reason it is it's own system, so it can use standards not normally applied to civvies.Hardly. Do you think that the military justice system is SO DIFFERENT that it doesn't care about deaths caused as a result of your actions?
Maybe. Even if we grant this, I still think 'no man left behind' is a compelling counterargument.Nope. It doesn't have to list every single aggravating circumstance for a judge or presiding officer to add them.
Okay, this slipped me. It doesn't diminish my central point, though. Or help yours, for that matter.They have the letter he wrote and the emails to his parents that signify intent. But you're right, they COULD just go for AWOL and avoid the whole mess.
The possibility of execution is so remote, it is useless to even bring it up at all.Yes, I agree it's next to impossible that they'll execute him. They COULD though, if they really wanted to. That's part of what I said originally, desertion can be a very serious charge.
The only thing that's hard and thick here is your skull. The military won't hold him responsible even if his comrades died looking for him, because it was the military's duty to look for him. They will accept the casualties, just as they would accept them if these soldiers were on a different mission entirely. I know it's callous to quote Vonnegut when people die, but... so it goes.I think the long and short of it is that you're living in a fantasy land. I have said repeatedly that he should only be held accountable for the deaths of his fellow soldiers if they died specifically while looking for him AFTER he committed a military crime and ran away. If it was just a normal patrol then he should not face those charges. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Quit restating an argument I got perfectly well the first time. Also in general, fuck off and headbutt a wall.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
- Elheru Aran
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
About the only reason the military would execute anybody is a serious crime such as murder or rape. Desertion is almost always a jail-time offense; the only recent execution for desertion was back at the tail end of WWII. There's no need to exaggerate the scale of the punishment he's likely to receive, as it's probably going to be harsh enough as it is. Killing him won't bring anybody back and won't serve any particular justice.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacreElheru Aran wrote:About the only reason the military would execute anybody is a serious crime such as murder or rape.
Nah. Well maybe if they murdered a fellow soldier.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
He still got life in prison without parole. Hardly a slap on the wrist. Even the civilian justice system doesn't always execute people who have committed crimes as serious as that.General Zod wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacreElheru Aran wrote:About the only reason the military would execute anybody is a serious crime such as murder or rape.
Nah. Well maybe if they murdered a fellow soldier.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Usually that's because the death penalty is illegal in the state in question.Elheru Aran wrote:He still got life in prison without parole. Hardly a slap on the wrist. Even the civilian justice system doesn't always execute people who have committed crimes as serious as that.General Zod wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacreElheru Aran wrote:About the only reason the military would execute anybody is a serious crime such as murder or rape.
Nah. Well maybe if they murdered a fellow soldier.
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Re: Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl returns to active duty after therapy.
Possibly. I don't have time to bother looking up stats. However, I'm fairly positive that even in states where the death penalty is legal, it's not usually *automatic*, and can almost always be appealed. My point is that it's fairly likely that Bergdahl won't be executed for the shit he put his fellow soldiers through.General Zod wrote:Usually that's because the death penalty is illegal in the state in question.Elheru Aran wrote:He still got life in prison without parole. Hardly a slap on the wrist. Even the civilian justice system doesn't always execute people who have committed crimes as serious as that.General Zod wrote:[snip]
Nah. Well maybe if they murdered a fellow soldier.
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