On historical/cultural slurs and references

[Queue]

We recently suffered an exchange where one member made the statement that "They (the Germans) did it (Nazism) so they need to live with it". The argument apparently being that when insulting Germans it's fair to use their past against them.

I'd like to invite people to give their opinions: Should a person be expected to "not complain" when faced with slurs that reference something unflattering in their nations' history? (for example, France & surrendering, Russia & Stalin, Germans & WWI&II, Britain & colonialism, America & slavery)

Note to thread: Many of the arguments were already made in a HoSed thread, and I will try to reproduce them here later unless someone copy/pastes them in first, which would be grand.

[Broomstick]

I have not yet read the HOS'd thread so this is solely in response to the OP's question (or, at least not recently if I have and it's an old thread - a link would be helpful).

Part of what contributed to atrocities in WWII (among other time periods) is the notion of group guilt, the notion that if one member of a group commits and offense all members of a group for all time are also guilty of that offense.

I don't think that is compatible with a global civilization.

A German born in 1970 is NOT responsible for what his parents and grandparents did in 1943. That person should be judged on his or her own actions, not those of a prior generation.

People DO have a right to complain or refute slurs, anything else is an open invitation to bullies to use entire groups as punching bags, which gets us nowhere.

[General Zod]

I have not yet read the HOS'd thread so this is solely in response to the OP's question (or, at least not recently if I have and it's an old thread - a link would be helpful).

Part of what contributed to atrocities in WWII (among other time periods) is the notion of group guilt, the notion that if one member of a group commits and offense all members of a group for all time are also guilty of that offense.

I don't think that is compatible with a global civilization.

A German born in 1970 is NOT responsible for what his parents and grandparents did in 1943. That person should be judged on his or her own actions, not those of a prior generation.

People DO have a right to complain or refute slurs, anything else is an open invitation to bullies to use entire groups as punching bags, which gets us nowhere.

I don't see anyone making a stink out of the war in Iraq every time someone uses it to slam Americans in general.

[Broomstick]

That's a contemporary event and like or not current Americans do have "live with it". I usually add in that I have opposed that war since before the US invaded but clearly any actions I have taken to oppose it have not been effective in stopping that war. That debacle is on the heads of the current US population since it was done in our collective name.

[General Zod]

That's a contemporary event and like or not current Americans do have "live with it". I usually add in that I have opposed that war since before the US invaded but clearly any actions I have taken to oppose it have not been effective in stopping that war. That debacle is on the heads of the current US population since it was done in our collective name.

A lot of Americans old enough to vote today weren't old enough to do anything about it at the time, if that's the standard that we're going to go with.

Otherwise I like to go with the "don't dish it out if you can't take it" standard.

[Elheru Aran]

Part of the issue with the Iraq war is that there's no convenient group-name proper noun to be associated with it, like "Nazi" or "Fascist" with WWII. You could perhaps use "Republican," but that's not really a slur-- it's a political affiliation. Ditto "warmonger" and other adjectives-- too nonspecific out of context.

In general when a proper noun or an adjective becomes pejorative, that's because there's something major and/or specific associated with that term. Take the recent sports-world flap over the Washington Redskins; the team's name is now considered a racial slur against Native Americans. There's a major history associated with that word. With, say, "Zionist" the picture is a little more complicated; usually it's a person who views Israel in an unfavorable light, playing upon the history of that country's aggressive reputation in the Middle East.

There's nothing as specific that can be hung upon Americans for the Iraq war, though. Part of that is the distance-- the only Americans that were intimately avoided in Iraq were the soldiers for the most part. 300+ million other Americans were on the other side of the pond. With Nazis, they became associated with the German identity thanks to the powerful and intimate impact they made upon that country's history.

Though now I'm curious; do other countries have terms specific to Americans? Because I've never heard of any, to be quite honest...

[Broomstick]

That's a contemporary event and like or not current Americans do have "live with it". I usually add in that I have opposed that war since before the US invaded but clearly any actions I have taken to oppose it have not been effective in stopping that war. That debacle is on the heads of the current US population since it was done in our collective name.

A lot of Americans old enough to vote today weren't old enough to do anything about it at the time, if that's the standard that we're going to go with.

Fair enough - in which case "I wasn't old enough to have a voice" works for me. It would help if more folks kept in mind that in internet text communications you don't know how old the other person is unless he or she states a specific age (and is not lying).

I just want the world to go with something more nuanced that "You belong to nation/ethnicity/region/religion X you are therefore scum". That sort of thinking perpetuates multi-generational conflict which we really would be better off without.

[General Zod]

That's a contemporary event and like or not current Americans do have "live with it". I usually add in that I have opposed that war since before the US invaded but clearly any actions I have taken to oppose it have not been effective in stopping that war. That debacle is on the heads of the current US population since it was done in our collective name.

A lot of Americans old enough to vote today weren't old enough to do anything about it at the time, if that's the standard that we're going to go with.

Fair enough - in which case "I wasn't old enough to have a voice" works for me. It would help if more folks kept in mind that in internet text communications you don't know how old the other person is unless he or she states a specific age (and is not lying).

I just want the world to go with something more nuanced that "You belong to nation/ethnicity/region/religion X you are therefore scum". That sort of thinking perpetuates multi-generational conflict which we really would be better off without.

I say if people want to use that approach then go for it, just don't start whining when people point out your own country's failings in response.

[Dartzap]

Its a fairly regular occurrence on here and elsewhere for Britain to be slammed for its Imperial actions, and its acceptable to me as a fair amount of the actions taken by my ancestors are highly contemptible by our modern moral code, if not the one of those times. Every nation has skeletons in its closet, but some are more able to (collectively) accept it than others, I suppose. I only ask that I am allowed to mock those who would mock us.

[Metahive]

One reason why I think it's so completely inappropriate to hit Germans with Nazi slurs is because Germany did one of the very rare things in history, they owned up to their guilt, learned from it and changed their ways in a major fashion. Look at some other nations, contrast it with, say, Japan or Italy, the two other Axis powers. Japan constantly tries to downplay or whitewash its crimes (or boast proudly about them, like Osaka's major did a while ago) while in Italy Mussolini's grandaughter belongs to a major right wing party and is as obnoxiously fascist as her grandpa.

[mr friendly guy]

If you don't own up to them its fair game. If you admit that it was wrong it seems just rubbing it in.

Germany obviously owned up to it, so I wouldn't use the Nazi label unless that particular Germany actually did have Nazi leanings.

Japan has not, so its fair game. The problem arises with countries which are sort of in the middle. For example someone used Britain. Certainly modern British values wouldn't condone slavery (although to be fair the Empire did end it in their sphere of influence) and would at least officially condemn racism. However as has been pointed out before, sometimes modern British policy cough Iraq cough appears to be a yearning for the good ole days where Britain actually was the predominant superpower.

Another example is how the West goes democracy, democracy, self determination etc and totally ignores the fact that democratic powers screwed over countries like China (which caused their intellectuals to seek out other patrons like the USSR and start studying Marxism) after WWI by awarded German concessions (which the Germans had captured from the Chinese) to Japan at the same time Woodrow Wilson was preaching self determination, which many Chinese intellectuals bought, hook, line and sinker. I think any country involved in this farce who preaches democracy and self determination opens itself to this historical criticism even if they now say "oh we would do something different." And what we do find is that some people do refer to the West with the perjorative of imperialism to describe past actions such as this one. *

* Edit - its fair game under the principle of "they haven't admitted wrong doing" unlike Germany

[General Zod]

I think it gets a lot less blatant than some of the examples so far though, I seem to remember a thread where people were slamming on North Korea for having trouble with their space program and mocking them as idiots. Even though Space X has had numerous documented failures trying to get their own program up and running with plenty of American engineering backing them and it looked like a really cheap "Me too!11!!!Shift!". I don't recall much in the way of moderator outrage.

[ArmorPierce]

Though now I'm curious; do other countries have terms specific to Americans? Because I've never heard of any, to be quite honest...

There is gringo south of the border. Began around the time of the Mexican American war because American soldiers wore green uniforms.

[General Zod]

Though now I'm curious; do other countries have terms specific to Americans? Because I've never heard of any, to be quite honest...

There is gringo south of the border. Began around the time of the Mexican American war because American soldiers wore green uniforms.

I always hear "Yanks" get thrown about by Aussies and Brits.

[Sea Skimmer]

Suck it down and deal with it loosers would be the simple version of what I think, a lot of shit happened in the world and we all damn well know any pointless attempt to restrict talking about it will just lead to massive bias setting into the process. If you don't want your country brought up then don't constantly go around thumping it up with a bunch of spam about how great it is, it tends to reduce the chances of it happening. People will respond to that behavior.

[Borgholio]

Though now I'm curious; do other countries have terms specific to Americans? Because I've never heard of any, to be quite honest...

There is gringo south of the border. Began around the time of the Mexican American war because American soldiers wore green uniforms.

I always hear "Yanks" get thrown about by Aussies and Brits.

Don't forget the commies often referred to us as capitalist pigs.

[Gandalf]

Suck it down and deal with it losers would be the simple version of what I think, a lot of shit happened in the world and we all damn well know any pointless attempt to restrict talking about it will just lead to massive bias setting into the process. If you don't want your country brought up then don't constantly go around thumping it up with a bunch of spam about how great it is, it tends to reduce the chances of it happening. People will respond to that behaviour.

That makes sense, but what happens when it's somewhat unrelated, like the Twitter spike in the usage of the word Nazi during the World Cup?

[Borgholio]

That makes sense, but what happens when it's somewhat unrelated, like the Twitter spike in the usage of the word Nazi during the World Cup?

People on the internet are stupid?

[General Zod]

Suck it down and deal with it losers would be the simple version of what I think, a lot of shit happened in the world and we all damn well know any pointless attempt to restrict talking about it will just lead to massive bias setting into the process. If you don't want your country brought up then don't constantly go around thumping it up with a bunch of spam about how great it is, it tends to reduce the chances of it happening. People will respond to that behaviour.

That makes sense, but what happens when it's somewhat unrelated, like the Twitter spike in the usage of the word Nazi during the World Cup?

I don't think the mods on SDN have any authority over Twitter.

[Gandalf]

I meant if something similar were to occur here, not that actual event.

For example, when Coffee broke into his little Nazi tirade when he felt offended by Thanas' remarks, would he be violating the rules?

[General Zod]

I meant if something similar were to occur here, not that actual event.

For example, when Coffee broke into his little Nazi tirade when he felt offended by Thanas' remarks, would he be violating the rules?

I'd like to see some crackdowns on the me-tooing chucklefucks that like to dogpile on "Herp derp America sucks" threads when they think it's safe to do it because all the cool kids are too. Otherwise I think it should all be fair game.

[ArmorPierce]

Same logic is used against affirmative action. What exactly is the line?

Calling a black person an N word and calling a German a Nazi are two completely different things by the way for the reason that the N word is used against an oppressed people with a history of oppression versus Nazi would have been the opposite end of that spectrum.

You can draw a line on the sand on any mention of race or history but that draws a sand in the line and doesn't acknowledge actual soci-economic realities that may have resulted.

[Metahive]

In both cases you're making a generalized insult about an entire group of people that isn't justified any more than calling all US Americans racist slavers or all Brits imperialists.

I would also like to point out that when Nazis are portrayed in the media it's as evi, subhuman scum that can be mistreated in every which way. While they might have earned this reputation, isn't calling modern Germans Nazis saying that you think they can be subjected to similar treatment and that whatever they say and do can be dismissed because they're evil, subhuman scum?
Look at whenever some German says something less positive about Israel for example, the Nazi insult is immediately unholstered to silence that German, whether actually earned or not.

I think that's why the Nazi insult mustn't be tolerated.

[salm]

Same logic is used against affirmative action. What exactly is the line?

Calling a black person an N word and calling a German a Nazi are two completely different things by the way for the reason that the N word is used against an oppressed people with a history of oppression versus Nazi would have been the opposite end of that spectrum.

You can draw a line on the sand on any mention of race or history but that draws a sand in the line and doesn't acknowledge actual soci-economic realities that may have resulted.

Is it so different? In one instance you´re calling somebody a worthless subhuman whom it´s fine to opress. In the other instance you´re calling somebody an inherently immoral asshole.

Now, obviously the meanings are different but does this mean that the recipient of the insult should prefer one over the other? Both meanings, by current context, are bad.

Btw, i think calling Americans slavers is just as bad.

[Metahive]

I forgot to add, there's actually such a term for US Americans, "cracker", which comes from "cracking the whip" and is referring to the US' slavering past. As far as I can tell from the last time black-supremacists visited this site, this insult is banned here as racist. Why can't Nazi generalizations be too, then?