Is it ok to use the word rape synonymously with curbstomp

[Spekio]

No, I don't think it is okay to use rape. I do think it is okay to use curbstomp and murder.

Why?

Because only one of the three perpetuates rape culture.

Honest question: Could you explain me why exactly?

[Borgholio]

No, I don't think it is okay to use rape. I do think it is okay to use curbstomp and murder.

Why?

Because only one of the three perpetuates rape culture.

Honest question: Could you explain me why exactly?

Rape is often seen as not being as bad as other forms of violence. Many times the woman is blamed for the rape...saying she asked for it. For instance, a man may try to get into her pants even though she keeps resisting but eventually he succeeds and calls it a score. Then when she complains to the police, she will be asked why she was wearing the outfit she was or why she didn't try to fight back harder, etc... That kind of behavior towards the victim doesn't really happy when talking about a murder or a brutal beating. Because of this, the effort should be made to make the word "rape" be taken more seriously.

[Thanas]

Honest question: Could you explain me why exactly?

Anglo-Saxon (especially American) culture has a long history of making light of rape. This leads to rape victims being marginalized or not treated with enough attention and considering the rape epidemic present in US culture I don't think they need any more of that.

[Borgholio]

Ghetto Edit - "doesn't really *APPLY*"

Happy, really? How did I manage THAT...

[Spekio]

Thank you both, Borgholio an Thanas.

[mr friendly guy]

I think Thanas and Borgholio explained it nicely. I assume then when and if such time as the word rape is taken seriously, or in the same vein as if a victim was curbstomp, thrashed etc then using the word rape to describe a defeat of vast magnitude would seen in the same vein as those other words?

Personally I have used the word curbstomp to describe massive defeats - in a vs debate where I said the UFP would curbstomp the Minbari once they fully mobilise. I don't recall having used the word rape in the same context, but as I said, I have seen it used before.

[Borgholio]

"The Minbari would have their asses handed to them by the UFP" would work. Nobody would really expect the Feds to literally hand a Minbari soldier his own buttocks.

I will freely admit though that I HAVE used rape as a term to describe a crushing defeat. Its something that I try to avoid, but as Thanas pointed out, it's ingrained pretty good over here. I remember people using rape casually going back to Junior High School. I have to catch myself and use a different word or phrase, but sometimes I slip up because it's something I grew up with.

[Thanas]

I think Thanas and Borgholio explained it nicely. I assume then when and if such time as the word rape is taken seriously, or in the same vein as if a victim was curbstomp, thrashed etc then using the word rape to describe a defeat of vast magnitude would seen in the same vein as those other words?

Sure, but I am pessimistic about the chances of this happening in the next decade.

[Simon_Jester]

As I said earlier, I agree with Thanas and so on, 'rape' should not be used as a synonym for 'score a victory over' for obvious reasons.

I'm curious as to why we don't have more people who see curbstomp itself as also being a word that should not be used in such situations, because of the particularly brutal and racism-associated form of violence it represents.

[Purple]

I'm curious as to why we don't have more people who see curbstomp itself as also being a word that should not be used in such situations, because of the particularly brutal and racism-associated form of violence it represents.

It could be because everyone in the world understands the underlying evil of rape. But most people do not know about the racism part of curbstomping. In fact I still do not know of it. You just mentioned it and that's why I am saying this. We see it as just another extremely violent way to hurt someone. And equating violent beatdown with extreme victory is just part of human nature.

[Borgholio]

I'm curious as to why we don't have more people who see curbstomp itself as also being a word that should not be used in such situations, because of the particularly brutal and racism-associated form of violence it represents.

It could be because everyone in the world understands the underlying evil of rape. But most people do not know about the racism part of curbstomping. In fact I still do not know of it. You just mentioned it and that's why I am saying this. We see it as just another extremely violent way to hurt someone. And equating violent beatdown with extreme victory is just part of human nature.

Likewise, I didn't know that curbstomp had any racist overtones. I thought it was just a brutal form of assault.

[Thanas]

American history X popularised it, but it isn't really associated with racism itself IMO, just like no execution method is.

EDIT: Iirc a lot of shows also use it without racist undertones. The sopranos, Assassins Creed...So it seems far less connected with racism unlike lynching.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, fair enough.

On the other hand, it is also a highly specific form of assault with very brutal, crippling or even lethal consequences.

It's like, I'd be less weirded out by someone saying "the German team murdered the Brazilians in the semifinals" than having someone say "the Germans stabbed the Brazilians in the eye and swirled the knife around in their brain." The more specific and graphic formulation is more disturbing, and less appropriate.

[madd0ct0r]

for me it's the opposite - the additional detail makes it more ludicruos, less realisitc and thus funny instead of creepy.

[Purple]

for me it's the opposite - the additional detail makes it more ludicruos, less realisitc and thus funny instead of creepy.

I concur.

[Simon_Jester]

for me it's the opposite - the additional detail makes it more ludicruos, less realisitc and thus funny instead of creepy.

OK, now you I'll listen to.

The above line (about what Germans did to Brazilians, knife, twirling, et cetera) could very easily be part of a dark-comedic piece. I agree.

The catch is that if a person said that as part of normal dialogue it'd be... kind of weird. Or if they did the same thing with all sorts of other gruesome ways to kill or maim people. A person who spoke that way regularly would make the people around them uncomfortable.

It can be funny to discuss such exaggerated mutilations in a certain tone, under certain conditions. But they are not part of everyday speech- be it polite speech or informal speech. And, in my opinion, using them as imagery to describe winning at a sporting event is not appropriate.

[General Zod]

for me it's the opposite - the additional detail makes it more ludicruos, less realisitc and thus funny instead of creepy.

OK, now you I'll listen to.

The above line (about what Germans did to Brazilians, knife, twirling, et cetera) could very easily be part of a dark-comedic piece. I agree.

The catch is that if a person said that as part of normal dialogue it'd be... kind of weird. Or if they did the same thing with all sorts of other gruesome ways to kill or maim people. A person who spoke that way regularly would make the people around them uncomfortable.

It can be funny to discuss such exaggerated mutilations in a certain tone, under certain conditions. But they are not part of everyday speech- be it polite speech or informal speech. And, in my opinion, using them as imagery to describe winning at a sporting event is not appropriate.

Comedy is 10% content and 90% timing.

[madd0ct0r]

^ a much more concise version of what I was writing.

so it hinges on the tone and conditions. For me at least, a sport match is very very far from serious business, and amongst my friend group the only two 'acceptable' ways to discuss it would be mockingly disinterested 'they footed the ball better' or as a dark comedy piece. This is a friend group who are collectors of dead baby jokes though, so there's obviously some taboo-crossing norms.

people modify their language based on group norms - I think i've only ever used curbstomped on this board (and that to describe my occasional attempts to prove Alyrilium wrong on points of biology - so slightly Americanised self mocking dark comedy, something that is wired through this board's culture). The thing with comedy is it requires a willing audience, so it's not language I'd use,say at my local cafe.

Since a number of my friends have been sexually assaulted, rape is not a source of comedy amongst them. Since none of us have been victim of vicious beatings (outside of rugby and rosshockey matches) that taboo topic remains a source of humour, as do dead babies. The latter will probably change as more of us become parents. Race is a large source of humour, but newcomers to the group tend to be very careful about it until they learn what is acceptable and what is not. A similar process is constantly acting on the fractal human groups across society.

so that's the status quo. should 'rape', 'curbstomp' and other violent or sexual imagery be pushed from impolite conversation to total taboos?
that i'm not so sure about [/warbling]

PS: for products of the uk public school system, 'thrashing' has a very specific, borderline S&M meaning

[Simon_Jester]

To be fair, you're right about "thrashing" because it's used to refer to beatings delivered with the switch. Although that's a lot less scarring and brutalizing than a curbstomping... then again, for some it can be trauma, and it's a more common experience.

Anyway, you have a good point overall, that in context things become more or less funny based on whether the audience is close to or remote from them. The catch is, I think, that for me brutal physical assaults are in the same class as rape. I don't know who may have experienced them or been in fear of them, so I consider it a matter of politeness not to bring them up except when it would specifically be appropriate.

[General Zod]

To be fair, you're right about "thrashing" because it's used to refer to beatings delivered with the switch. Although that's a lot less scarring and brutalizing than a curbstomping... then again, for some it can be trauma, and it's a more common experience.

Anyway, you have a good point overall, that in context things become more or less funny based on whether the audience is close to or remote from them. The catch is, I think, that for me brutal physical assaults are in the same class as rape. I don't know who may have experienced them or been in fear of them, so I consider it a matter of politeness not to bring them up except when it would specifically be appropriate.

I'm going to let George Carlin field this one.

[Simon_Jester]

Thing is, George Carlin was a professional asshole. People specifically went to his shows and paid money to listen to him being a (very) entertaining asshole. That's a very different environment from the kind of everyday talk I've been thinking about.

And he was also very good at constructing jokes, which matters because as he said, "it's all about how you construct the joke." You can take anything, even horrible things, and turn it into a joke that will amuse at least some people, if not all. The hard part is doing so reliably.

It's much more challenging to tell a rape joke that is actually funny, than to get a cheap laugh that amuses the gorilla-jock types in the audience while acting as psychological warfare against all the women present.

[General Zod]

Thing is, George Carlin was a professional asshole. People specifically went to his shows and paid money to listen to him being a (very) entertaining asshole. That's a very different environment from the kind of everyday talk I've been thinking about.

And he was also very good at constructing jokes, which matters because as he said, "it's all about how you construct the joke." You can take anything, even horrible things, and turn it into a joke that will amuse at least some people, if not all. The hard part is doing so reliably.

It's much more challenging to tell a rape joke that is actually funny, than to get a cheap laugh that amuses the gorilla-jock types in the audience while acting as psychological warfare against all the women present.

I think it's a matter of empathy. You have a better chance at making both sets of people laugh when you can get into everyone's head for the big picture. Not just how the joke applies to people like you. Even if it's a shock joke it should try and make some kind of point.

[Simon_Jester]

I agree.

I suppose my main thing is that certain classes of thing are unpleasant enough that with even a little empathy we know that talking about them can trigger buried landmines.

It's one thing to tell deliberately set-up stories about such things, jokes or otherwise, that are crafted with an eye to how all people will react to something.

But when we're casually making a choice of imagery to use in describing something, it's common decency to take a little care in what we use as a synonym for "victory."

Use of the word 'rape' is the best single example because we can very clearly see why it's a problem is in popular culture we use the word 'X raped Y' as a synonym for 'X achieved total victory over Y.' Rape culture is about dominance, and encouraging people to think of rape as synonymous with winning, with being 'one up' in some kind of game, makes rape considerably more likely.

Using words that describe specific, brutal kind of assaults is a less good example.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

The answer to the thread title is "no".

There is no need for further discussion.

No, you stupid fuck, it's not okay. If you need a multi-paragraph post to explain this to you, just eat a fucking bullet and make the world a better place.

[General Zod]

The answer to the thread title is "no".

There is no need for further discussion.

No, you stupid fuck, it's not okay. If you need a multi-paragraph post to explain this to you, just eat a fucking bullet and make the world a better place.

But murder is still cool right?