Is it ok to use the word rape synonymously with curbstomp

[SilverWingedSeraph]

What makes this whole thing funny is I generally agree with your viewpoint. I just think you're being a smug, self important asshole about it.

So it's an issue of style over substance?

It takes a big man to jump into a thread that's mostly run its course and start calling the losing side a bunch of ignorant mouthbreathers.

Seems to suffice fine every time a Wars Vs. Trek thread starts up again, but heaven forbid I insult people who might think rape isn't that bad!

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I mean, what do I know, I've just experienced it, haha! Guess I need to experience getting my face punched in to, to compare the two! Wait, I have, and no one ever accused me of making it up because I had blood all over my face, a split lip and a big cut on my eyebrow! I've experienced both things, and here I am, making posts in a thread on the subject, and I am such a smug asshole for insulting the people who conflate the two and suggesting that such people are worthless wastes of oxygen.

Gosh, you really taught me a lesson, Zod, I'm such a self-important smug asshole, I'm glad you're here to teach me these important, character forming lessons that I obviously need.

[Borgholio]

How much education do you need to realise "rape is a thing that happens", "rape victims are often accused of making false accusations", "rape victims are often blamed for their rapes", "all of this makes statements regarding rape, a low-visibility form of assault that anyone I know could have been a victim of, a very hurtful subject in ways that other forms of physical violence aren't, because at least people can acknowledge that those sorts of violence fucking occured."

Sometimes quite a bit. On the surface, people think of rape as just another crime. You run a red light, you get a ticket. You steal something you go to jail for a short time. You try to kill someone you go to prison for a long time. You rape someone, you go to prison. Right? Well...no not really. Many people are just not aware of the special circumstances that go along with rape. You can't just magically become aware of how hard it is for the victim to get justice unless you spend time reading about it or asking about it in a thread like this. Learning about flaws in the legal system DOES require education either from someone with first-hand knowledge such as yourself, or from someone who previously did the bookwork and researched the subject.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to make light of your situation, but being raped yourself does not automatically mean that everybody else in the world is suddenly educated on how bad rape is. It is up to you to to educate them just how different rape is compared to other crimes, and you can't do so effectively by jumping down their throats about it.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I really don't feel like I'm obligated to be nice to people about it.

[Borgholio]

I really don't feel like I'm obligated to be nice to people about it.

I can't say I blame you, but it'll be easier to get the point across and get people to listen if you are at least civil about it.

[Spekio]

Oh hey let us have a civilized and intellectual discussion about how hitler may have in fact been correct in exterminating the jews hoho yes, jolly good i have my five paragraph essay right here dissect this subject.

What what what, someone has burst in and said anyone who thinks this way should kill themselves! What uncivilised foolish rudeness! We were here discussing genocide like adults and this... this SAVAGE had to come in and so rudely assert that anyone who likes genocide is a putrid cunt! HOW DARE HE.

HOW. DARE. HE.

....

Hey, dumbfuck, stop using words when you don't know what they mean. A strawman implies I took your position, made a mocked up version of it, and then attacked that. I didn't do that. I said I don't give a fuck about your opinion. How do you expect to keep up in intelligent debate if you don't know what words mean and you're being outsmarted by the drunk guy.

Secondly, read the shit above.

Shitposting, godwin then claiming intoxication. Bravo.

Your posts are implying everyone who does not agree with you condones rape. I was not wrong affirming you were straw-manning.

But hey, when your balls drop you might perhaps learn that "I don't care about your opinion" is a not a valid argument.

[General Zod]

I mean, what do I know, I've just experienced it, haha! Guess I need to experience getting my face punched in to, to compare the two! Wait, I have, and no one ever accused me of making it up because I had blood all over my face, a split lip and a big cut on my eyebrow! I've experienced both things, and here I am, making posts in a thread on the subject, and I am such a smug asshole for insulting the people who conflate the two and suggesting that such people are worthless wastes of oxygen.

Gosh, you really taught me a lesson, Zod, I'm such a self-important smug asshole, I'm glad you're here to teach me these important, character forming lessons that I obviously need.

Well shit, I guess everyone who's been through the same things must feel the same way about them right?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Shitposting, godwin then claiming intoxication. Bravo.

Your posts are implying everyone who does agree with you condones rape. I was not wrong affirming you were straw-manning.

But hey, when your balls drop you might perhaps learn that "I don't care about your opinion" is a not a valid argument.

I'll cop to the Godwin and the intoxication, but making a post you disagree with doesn't constitute shit-posting, dumbfuck.

Also, that's not what I'm implying at all. I'm directly asserting that those who disagree with me are rape-apologists who support rape culture, a thing that actually exists. This is not the same as condoning rape. I'm sure you think rape is a very bad thing. (Except for maybe when it happens in prisons or to women who were too intoxicated to say no. I can't be sure what sort of shithead you are off the information I have right now. Give me time.)

"I don't care about your opinion" isn't an argument, you're right! It's a statement of fact! It's all you deserve. Your opinion on this subject is worthless to me. I value it less than I value the piss I just flushed down the toilet. I'm sorry if this upsets you, it's just reality. I do not give a shit about anything you have to say on this subject, because this is all theoretical to you. Rape is a thing that happens to 'other people', and so it is perhaps easy for you to not understand how it, and the circumstances that surround the victims of it, are quite different from the experiences of victims of physical assault (perhaps aside from domestic violence, accusations of which are often treated in the same manner), and murder.

As far as I'm concerned, despite your feeble attempts at presenting an intellectual argument, you simply don't fucking know anything.

I mean, what do I know, I've just experienced it, haha! Guess I need to experience getting my face punched in to, to compare the two! Wait, I have, and no one ever accused me of making it up because I had blood all over my face, a split lip and a big cut on my eyebrow! I've experienced both things, and here I am, making posts in a thread on the subject, and I am such a smug asshole for insulting the people who conflate the two and suggesting that such people are worthless wastes of oxygen.

Gosh, you really taught me a lesson, Zod, I'm such a self-important smug asshole, I'm glad you're here to teach me these important, character forming lessons that I obviously need.

Well shit, I guess everyone who's been through the same things must feel the same way about them right?

Did I claim that?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I can't say I blame you, but it'll be easier to get the point across and get people to listen if you are at least civil about it.

I'm just giggling, remembering people who said similar things to Mike over the ultimately fucking meaningless Wars vs Trek arguments. "Style vs. substance fallacy! If you don't like it, fuck off, I don't have to be nice!"

I mean, you are right, civility would certainly serve me better. But in this situation, I'm assuming that anyone in this thread already agrees with my general point (and just disagrees with my presentation), or is too fucking stupid to be reached with civility anyway, so I don't give a fuck.

[Borgholio]

I'm assuming that anyone in this thread already agrees with my general point (and just disagrees with my presentation),

Correct. So no need to try to reach us at all...either civil or otherwise.

[Thanas]

I'm assuming that anyone in this thread already agrees with my general point (and just disagrees with my presentation), or is too fucking stupid to be reached with civility anyway, so I don't give a fuck.

That's a bad assumption to make, especially if it is directed at Spekio.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

I'm assuming that anyone in this thread already agrees with my general point (and just disagrees with my presentation), or is too fucking stupid to be reached with civility anyway, so I don't give a fuck.

That's a bad assumption to make, especially if it is directed at Spekio.

I dunno, Spekio's striking me as pretty fucking stupid right now.

[General Zod]

Did I claim that?

You've already asserted that everyone who disagrees with you is a rape apologist, which is pretty funny. Because nobody who's ever been raped or attacked would disagree with you right? But you've already decided my opinion doesn't matter so what do I know.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Rape victims are quite capable of still being rape apologists and/or propagating rape culture. Just as victims of racism and members of a marginalized minority can support political policies that actively harm them and result in more victims, due to ignorance and social pressure. Just like there are gay people who do not support equal rights for LGBT, and black people who support policies that actively hurt black communities.

Do you like me better when I'm calmly responding to your accusations? Am I less of a smug self-important asshole? I'm sorry if my admission of being a rape survivor took the wind out of your sails, you can pretend it never happened, I don't mind, I'm used to it.

[General Zod]

Rape victims are quite capable of still being rape apologists and/or propagating rape culture. Just as victims of racism and members of a marginalized minority can support political policies that actively harm them and result in more victims, due to ignorance and social pressure. Just like there are gay people who do not support equal rights for LGBT, and black people who support policies that actively hurt black communities.

Do you like me better when I'm calmly responding to your accusations? Am I less of a smug self-important asshole? I'm sorry if my admission of being a rape survivor took the wind out of your sails, you can pretend it never happened, I don't mind, I'm used to it.

Well no, you're still a smug self-important asshole.

[Thanas]

Jeez Guys, is this really necessary?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Well no, you're still a smug self-important asshole.

How can I be mad at this? Fuck it, I more or less agree with you.

Jeez Guys, is this really necessary?

Why do people keep asking this? Why is it okay to be an aggressively rude, offensive asshole when arguing sci-fi and evolution vs creationism and history and all the other garbage that gets argued here, but when it's about rape, suddenly we all have to be nice while we're arguing? Fuck, I remember Havok making personal attacks against me because I made comments about the ergonomics of a fucking phaser. Has this place changed that much since I was last here? Zod's shit doesn't surprise me at all, I expected people to call me names, it's this "jeez guys calm down" shit that fucking confuses me.

[Thanas]

I am not telling you to shut up and go into the corner, I am just wondering what people hope to gain by shouting insults at each other. And I am concerned by a potential threadshit.

If i were speaking as a mod I would make it clear when using such a tone.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Three hours before I need to go to work, I should probably catch a few winks. I will leave you with some parting words (i might come back though, idk):

Murder is murder. Sure, there's distinctions between first and second degree murder. There's manslaughter, whatever. You ask people "You point a gun at someone's head, knowing there is a bullet in the chamber, and shoot them in the head. Is that murder?" People will say yes. There's no argument. Killing someone is murder. If there are mitigating circumstances it might be self-defense or something else.

But we live in a world where a very large number of people seem to think that violent rape is the only sort of rape that exists. That the victim has to be screaming and fighting back while someone forces themselves on them sexually. This is a world where people who commit rape do not believe they are rapists. Where many prominent politicians make statements about "legitimate rape". Where women are told not to do this and that and are given a laundry list of do's and don'ts to avoid rape, that are internally inconsistant and self-contradictory, and are frankly fucking offensive. My own rapist does not believe he raped me. He groomed me from the age of 9, and then used threats and coercion to force himself on me and keep me from telling anyone. He had sex with me numerous times without my consent. Even when I said 'no'. And he doesn't think that was rape. And there are a large number of other people who wouldn't think it was rape, because I didn't tell anyone, because I didn't fight back or scream for help.

The only reason I can even bring myself to talk about it now, behind the anonymity of a username on the internet, is because I am drunk. Because our society teaches rape victims to feel guilt over their own rapes, to be ashamed of it, to hide it and not talk about it, because it's an ugly subject.

So fuck you if you don't like how I talk about it. Fuck you, if you think what I have to say on the subject is invalid because I'm being a blunt 'self-important asshole' about it. I was raging about the fucking multi-paragraph posts treating the question in the subject title like it was a legitimate one that was worthy of serious discussion, and now I'm giving one of my own, because I just want to very clearly express the situation here. Rape is not comparable to murder or assault. Not socially, not societally, not psychologically, not physically. If you conflate them, I personally think you need to kill yourself and I am not ashamed to admit it because I never want another person, not anyone, to go through half the shit I want through.

tl;dr version: kiss my ass if you don't like what i said, idgaf

I am not telling you to shut up and go into the corner, I am just wondering what people hope to gain by shouting insults at each other. And I am concerned by a potential threadshit.

If i were speaking as a mod I would make it clear when using such a tone.

Fair enough, sorry for bitching.

[Spekio]

I'll cop to the Godwin and the intoxication, but making a post you disagree with doesn't constitute shit-posting, dumbfuck.

Hurling insults without adding anything contructive constitute shitposting, asshole.

Also, that's not what I'm implying at all. I'm directly asserting that those who disagree with me are rape-apologists who support rape culture, a thing that actually exists. This is not the same as condoning rape. I'm sure you think rape is a very bad thing. (Except for maybe when it happens in prisons or to women who were too intoxicated to say no. I can't be sure what sort of shithead you are off the information I have right now. Give me time.)

This actually managed to offend me. I was not aware of the term rape culture, mainly due to english being a second language, but I don't disagree with the assertion that rape victims have it worse than victims of other crimes. I really don't.

I don't post much on this forum about jurisprudence, (whom here cares about brazilian law?), but if I could point you to previous discussions with colleagues, you'd find me pretty much against "victim culpability"(free translation), as well as prision rape and slut shaming, and for including abused men in legislation intended for abused women.

That said, I find what is being proposed (and I recognized it may as well be because I'm not from an anglo-saxonian culture like most people here), to be... well, inane.

"I don't care about your opinion" isn't an argument, you're right! It's a statement of fact! It's all you deserve. Your opinion on this subject is worthless to me. I value it less than I value the piss I just flushed down the toilet. I'm sorry if this upsets you, it's just reality. I do not give a shit about anything you have to say on this subject, because this is all theoretical to you. Rape is a thing that happens to 'other people', and so it is perhaps easy for you to not understand how it, and the circumstances that surround the victims of it, are quite different from the experiences of victims of physical assault (perhaps aside from domestic violence, accusations of which are often treated in the same manner), and murder.

As far as I'm concerned, despite your feeble attempts at presenting an intellectual argument, you simply don't fucking know anything.

As for caring for my opinion or not, if you want to preach, don't join a discussion. And don't flatter yourself.

[Spekio]

For the sake of everyone else, allow me to elaborate.

A couple of years ago, the D.F. (our equivalent to D.C.) banned the sale of toy guns. Not realistic toy guns, mind you, but all sort of guns like NERF in toy stores, stating it wanted to stop gun violence.

I'm sure you are aware of how violent my country is. Untill I was 13, I lived in front of one Favela. I remeber more then one night being awakened by shots when the police decided to "subir o morro".

Kids in the favela, specially the ones recruited by the drug trade, couldn't afford to buy toy guns - and I'm quite sure the toy guns would not be the cause they turned to violence, but rather the State's disdain and the violent culture that thrives when social order is absent. See City of God, it's rather accurate.

So, while banning toy guns under the pretense of curbing violence might have a worthy goal, it does nothing to adress the reason gun violence exists in the first place.

The rape metaphor is the same to me. It has a negative connotation, same as murder. I really think that instead one needed more investment in education to change the cultural realities that enable the rape culture. As for "making light" of rape and such, there is no reason why we shouldn't do the same for murder.

[Spekio]

Sorry for the double posting, but I missed the editing time window:

And to make clear, using rape as a metaphor its an unusual turn of phrase in Portuguese, and not one I'd care to use in English, hence I didn't argue the point before.

All I said was that I stated I could empathize with people arguing for it, and that there could be merit in the discussion.

[biostem]

My take on this subject is thus: Messed up people are going to do atrocious things. There are a few things you can do to limit what such people can do, but another approach is to also empower potential victims with the knowledge and tools to both protect themselves and to make sure that those who do commit these crimes are caught and prosecuted.

Given the above, what is needed is both a social acceptance and understanding that being raped is not the victim's fault, nor does it make them less of a person or that their situation less "worthy" of being investigated.

That being said, it is also imperative that the victim immediately go to a hospital or police precinct, where a proper rape kit can be utilized to collect all the requisite evidence, otherwise it just comes down to he-said/she-said.

While I will never say that we should blame the victim, it is important to teach ways one can avoid scenarios which could potentially lead to a rape - just as someone is taught to look both ways before crossing the street, or not to get into cars with strangers.

There's no easy answer, and a multi-prong approach, (including persistent efforts to change popular misconceptions on the matter), is what is needed here; rape has been often attributed to some fault of the victim for way too long.

[General Zod]

While I will never say that we should blame the victim, it is important to teach ways one can avoid scenarios which could potentially lead to a rape - just as someone is taught to look both ways before crossing the street, or not to get into cars with strangers.

That's a really big can of worms right there.

[biostem]

While I will never say that we should blame the victim, it is important to teach ways one can avoid scenarios which could potentially lead to a rape - just as someone is taught to look both ways before crossing the street, or not to get into cars with strangers.

That's a really big can of worms right there.

Well, I can sort of see what you're getting at, but teaching life skills that can protect people is very important - you don't go down a dark alley, alone, in a strange neighborhood, you don't take an open drink from someone you don't trust, and you shouldn't go to a party at a unknown person's house without a group that you can rely on.