I am working on a fan fic of the Death squadron being popped into B5 during the asteroid chase in ESB. I have been constructing character arcs and planning an planning for several months. Finished an exhaustive B5 timeline up to the POD and so on... I'm not looking so much for suggestions of "what I think Vader should/would do is..." or "how I think this or that B5 group will react is...."
though I Appreciate ANY suggestions and comments...
what I am truly after here is some expert analysis on :
#1 how you feel SW tech might interact with B5 tech beyond simple firepower debates (SW wins hands down), on both Macro (capital ship) levels but also micro (is a handlink better than SW trooper helmet radios?) as well.
and
#2 how do you think the empire will deal with being trapped in an area with rather primitive tech? (The analogy I used to describe the tech difference to a SW fan who had never seen B5 is: well, imagine you took a modern carrier group back to Britain in 1890. The capital ships back then might superficially LOOK like they are in the same class, or a couple classes smaller, but in terms of firepower, range, speed, damage control, sensors, comms, and communications the are TOTALLY outclassed by the modern ships.) is this a decent analogy?
#3 also, do you think that B5 powers have a prayer of reverse engineering bits of imperial tech if they get their hands on it? what specific improvements might they make?
#4 if/when the Imperials conquer something, can they even USE the tech base that they end up controlling? again, if a modern carrier conquers scapa flow circa 1890, it doesn't mean the facilities there are useful to them for making repairs etc
#5 IF their infrastructure IS useful, how long will it take for SW engineers to retool them?
#6 how capable will the men on the death squadron be at colonization if they are taken to B5 space by surprise and that wasn't their original mission?
Death Squadron in B5
Moderator: NecronLord
Death Squadron in B5
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
Re: Death Squadron in B5
1. Certain things such as communications, encryption, computer security and such will easily go the way of the Empire. I find it unlikely there's anything the B5 verse has that could not be intercepted or hacked by the Empire with the exception of their tachyon communications, although it's never specified if the Empire uses tachyons for their holonet or FTL communications...so I'm unsure about that aspect of it.
Hyperdrive will be substantially faster than hyperspace, although I imagine the Empire will at least want to fully explore any potential benefits of the B5 hyperspace.
One interesting question is how the Empire will deal with telepathy. Vader is not a telepath in the same way as you find in B5. I would be curious to see how the Force would be able to interact with / counter the kind of telepathic attacks or probes that the Psi Corps are fond of using. Would a Psi-cop actually be able to break through Vader's mental defenses, or would he consider it to be nothing more than a simple Jedi mind trick and proceed to telekinetically implode the Psi-cop's trachea? We know that TK is pretty much a wet dream for telepaths in the B5 verse so that might provide an insight into how they compare with the Force.
2. They would see it firstly as a supply problem. They would want to be able to secure the ability to supply their ships and keep them running, so they will probably either quickly try to conquer a few worlds that they can use or (more probably) make deals with various native powers...give them technology in exchange for using their industry. Being as xenophobic as it is, the Earth Alliance would probably jump at that chance.
Once they had any supply issues dealt with, then they would probably want to try and find a way back home. If impossible, then they would want to set themselves up as the primary galactic superpower and use their superior military strength to make vassals out of anybody who may see them as a threat. Using the EA as a pawn would work quite nicely. Have the EA deal with the locals and keep them quiet, but if say, the Minbari show up in force...send in the Stardestroyers.
3. Sure they could, it'll just take time. Certain things like shields are not unknown in the B5 universe so they might get a grasp on the basic physics and be able to apply improvements. Weapons...maybe. A turbolaser is basically a kind of plasma weapon and most races use those on some level, so that could probably be taken apart. Hyperdrive and hypermatter generators? Those would take a great deal of time (if at all). The SW version of hyperspace is not at all like the B5 version, and many races still use fusion generators in their starships and space stations...so hypermatter would probably seem almost magical to them.
4. Yes, they would just need to provide some technical assistance. For instance in your example, an 1890's shipyard would not be able to produce a guided missile cruiser. They WOULD, however, be able to produce something close to an Iowa-class battleship. The evolutionary differences between a Dreadnought and an Iowa are really not that great if you simply provide schematics that nobody would have thought to create for the next 50 years. Things like Krupp armor are not that difficult to make provided you show period manufacturers the process, how to build the specific machines, and how to modify the steel alloy ingredients. Using WW2-era techniques to make the large-caliber guns instead of the pre-WW1 techniques, showing them how to build simple steam boilers instead of using coal, etc... It could be done.
Now granted, an Iowa is itself 50 years older than a guided missile cruiser, but still better than anything else at the time. The Empire could likely build ships that, while primitive to them, still outclass anything else in the B5 galaxy.
5. Depends on how ambitious they want to be. It would be easier to outfit existing ship classes such as the Omega with small (by SW standards) shield generators, light turbolasers, and a basic sensor package...and it would immediately become the most powerful ship ever built by any of the native races. They could probably do that with onboard manufacturing facilities while they retool the larger planet-side factories to build larger and more advanced pieces of equipment. What would take the longest is if they wanted to build new ship classes from the ground up (which would be better than retrofitted Omegas). They would need retooled shipyards and factories for building much more than shield generators and sensors. That could take awhile especially if they needed to build specialized machines from scratch (which they likely would have to).
6. Define colonization. Do you mean a single world to act as a fortress while they figure out how to get back? Or the start of a new galaxy-wide empire? If it's the former, then very easy. They already carry much of what they need to set up a base as part of their standard loadout. If it's the latter, then very hard without outside help. They would need women (hardly see any of them on screen) to help grow the population, raw materials for building factories and powerplants that exceed what a small outpost would need, etc...
Their smartest plan would to be getting the Earth Alliance to provide the tech base and industry they require. That way they can maneuver into a position where if they decided to take over, they would have an already large-ish empire ready to go.
Hyperdrive will be substantially faster than hyperspace, although I imagine the Empire will at least want to fully explore any potential benefits of the B5 hyperspace.
One interesting question is how the Empire will deal with telepathy. Vader is not a telepath in the same way as you find in B5. I would be curious to see how the Force would be able to interact with / counter the kind of telepathic attacks or probes that the Psi Corps are fond of using. Would a Psi-cop actually be able to break through Vader's mental defenses, or would he consider it to be nothing more than a simple Jedi mind trick and proceed to telekinetically implode the Psi-cop's trachea? We know that TK is pretty much a wet dream for telepaths in the B5 verse so that might provide an insight into how they compare with the Force.
2. They would see it firstly as a supply problem. They would want to be able to secure the ability to supply their ships and keep them running, so they will probably either quickly try to conquer a few worlds that they can use or (more probably) make deals with various native powers...give them technology in exchange for using their industry. Being as xenophobic as it is, the Earth Alliance would probably jump at that chance.
Once they had any supply issues dealt with, then they would probably want to try and find a way back home. If impossible, then they would want to set themselves up as the primary galactic superpower and use their superior military strength to make vassals out of anybody who may see them as a threat. Using the EA as a pawn would work quite nicely. Have the EA deal with the locals and keep them quiet, but if say, the Minbari show up in force...send in the Stardestroyers.
3. Sure they could, it'll just take time. Certain things like shields are not unknown in the B5 universe so they might get a grasp on the basic physics and be able to apply improvements. Weapons...maybe. A turbolaser is basically a kind of plasma weapon and most races use those on some level, so that could probably be taken apart. Hyperdrive and hypermatter generators? Those would take a great deal of time (if at all). The SW version of hyperspace is not at all like the B5 version, and many races still use fusion generators in their starships and space stations...so hypermatter would probably seem almost magical to them.
4. Yes, they would just need to provide some technical assistance. For instance in your example, an 1890's shipyard would not be able to produce a guided missile cruiser. They WOULD, however, be able to produce something close to an Iowa-class battleship. The evolutionary differences between a Dreadnought and an Iowa are really not that great if you simply provide schematics that nobody would have thought to create for the next 50 years. Things like Krupp armor are not that difficult to make provided you show period manufacturers the process, how to build the specific machines, and how to modify the steel alloy ingredients. Using WW2-era techniques to make the large-caliber guns instead of the pre-WW1 techniques, showing them how to build simple steam boilers instead of using coal, etc... It could be done.
Now granted, an Iowa is itself 50 years older than a guided missile cruiser, but still better than anything else at the time. The Empire could likely build ships that, while primitive to them, still outclass anything else in the B5 galaxy.
5. Depends on how ambitious they want to be. It would be easier to outfit existing ship classes such as the Omega with small (by SW standards) shield generators, light turbolasers, and a basic sensor package...and it would immediately become the most powerful ship ever built by any of the native races. They could probably do that with onboard manufacturing facilities while they retool the larger planet-side factories to build larger and more advanced pieces of equipment. What would take the longest is if they wanted to build new ship classes from the ground up (which would be better than retrofitted Omegas). They would need retooled shipyards and factories for building much more than shield generators and sensors. That could take awhile especially if they needed to build specialized machines from scratch (which they likely would have to).
6. Define colonization. Do you mean a single world to act as a fortress while they figure out how to get back? Or the start of a new galaxy-wide empire? If it's the former, then very easy. They already carry much of what they need to set up a base as part of their standard loadout. If it's the latter, then very hard without outside help. They would need women (hardly see any of them on screen) to help grow the population, raw materials for building factories and powerplants that exceed what a small outpost would need, etc...
Their smartest plan would to be getting the Earth Alliance to provide the tech base and industry they require. That way they can maneuver into a position where if they decided to take over, they would have an already large-ish empire ready to go.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Re: Death Squadron in B5
One of the issues that always occurs with these "trapped in another fictional universe" scenario is sustainability. Most people address the material issues, but most forget about the human resource issues.
If you think about a real world Navy only about 30% to 10% of the crew are officers with some sort of university level degree or higher. Many of those degrees are not going to be technical, and even those that are are not specifically geared to Navy equipment and engineering concepts in particular. At heart every member of that crew is an operator, with perhaps enough specific design and engineering training to make minor repairs using carrierd parts in a plug and play fashion. Incidently the people doing this are not the most educated, the officers, but rather the mid to upper grade ratings acting as technical experts. So right there you have a break between who has the highest level of theoretical knowledge and the hands on real world experiance.
Even if you had the cream of the crop in education and qualification wise onboard (which we can expect from Death Squadron), being smart in your field is not the same thing as being able to tech your field. There is no reason to assume the crews of Death Squadron can train their subordinates to replace themselves to the same level they are at. This will get worse when trying to train recruits sourced from the local population which they will eventually have to do.
So in short the crews that operate the tech are as much a product of their universe as the tech itself. The original crews will attrite, and without having the population to recurit from or an education system matching their original tech level the skills to use that tech will attrophy or disappear.
I am not sure we can accurately assess the demographics of a Star Destroyer crew but if they are similar to our own warships they are generally very young or middle aged with few in between. A lot of this is because everyone goes to sea right out of training first, then goes to shore duty (where they also get their more advanced education), then return to sea at the next level in the chain of command. Death Squadron might be missing several generations of spacers.
BSG did deal with these issues someonewhat.
If you think about a real world Navy only about 30% to 10% of the crew are officers with some sort of university level degree or higher. Many of those degrees are not going to be technical, and even those that are are not specifically geared to Navy equipment and engineering concepts in particular. At heart every member of that crew is an operator, with perhaps enough specific design and engineering training to make minor repairs using carrierd parts in a plug and play fashion. Incidently the people doing this are not the most educated, the officers, but rather the mid to upper grade ratings acting as technical experts. So right there you have a break between who has the highest level of theoretical knowledge and the hands on real world experiance.
Even if you had the cream of the crop in education and qualification wise onboard (which we can expect from Death Squadron), being smart in your field is not the same thing as being able to tech your field. There is no reason to assume the crews of Death Squadron can train their subordinates to replace themselves to the same level they are at. This will get worse when trying to train recruits sourced from the local population which they will eventually have to do.
So in short the crews that operate the tech are as much a product of their universe as the tech itself. The original crews will attrite, and without having the population to recurit from or an education system matching their original tech level the skills to use that tech will attrophy or disappear.
I am not sure we can accurately assess the demographics of a Star Destroyer crew but if they are similar to our own warships they are generally very young or middle aged with few in between. A lot of this is because everyone goes to sea right out of training first, then goes to shore duty (where they also get their more advanced education), then return to sea at the next level in the chain of command. Death Squadron might be missing several generations of spacers.
BSG did deal with these issues someonewhat.
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Crazedwraith
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
Didn't we do this already? Apparently you don't like the answers you got.
But since this is fanfic. These questions are nearly irrelevant. The object is to tell a story. You need to think about characters, interactions, the plot. And make decisions on what's best for that. Fanfic's that are based on what debaters think would 'actually' happen generally come off as boring since one side greatly overwhelms the other.
But since this is fanfic. These questions are nearly irrelevant. The object is to tell a story. You need to think about characters, interactions, the plot. And make decisions on what's best for that. Fanfic's that are based on what debaters think would 'actually' happen generally come off as boring since one side greatly overwhelms the other.
Re: Death Squadron in B5
Initially, disinterested. Everything is such a comparative backwater that The Empire's not rushing to seek aid.cmdrjones wrote: #1 how you feel SW tech might interact with B5 tech beyond simple firepower debates (SW wins hands down), on both Macro (capital ship) levels but also micro (is a handlink better than SW trooper helmet radios?) as well.
The EA, being human would attract curiosity, as time goes on and the Imperials get to the point where it's clear returning home isn't easy and they need safe harbor, the Earth Alliance (with some advance recon) would be the folks to call.
The manner of Imperial intervention would be dependent on your POD, if Earth-Minbari War era, the Empire could literally "save" the day, Death Squadron jumping in during the Battle of the Line, Turkey shooting the Minbari before Delen has a chance to play with that triangle thingy. Literally overnight Vader assumes rule over the EA as their black clad messiah.
If during the series run, it get's complicated, The Shadow's wouldn't humor Imperial interference with their plans for the Clark Regime. As The Shadow war was befitting the name, the whole galactic political climate goes straight to hell. The Shadows have to become far more active to counter the Empire, the Vorlons do the same to counter the Shadows and square off against the Empire (which is also an interference to their interests), the ensuing total war involving all players and pawns draws the First Ones to enter the fray.
In the sense that B5 ships have similar measurements#2 how do you think the empire will deal with being trapped in an area with rather primitive tech? (The analogy I used to describe the tech difference to a SW fan who had never seen B5 is: well, imagine you took a modern carrier group back to Britain in 1890. The capital ships back then might superficially LOOK like they are in the same class, or a couple classes smaller, but in terms of firepower, range, speed, damage control, sensors, comms, and communications the are TOTALLY outclassed by the modern ships.) is this a decent analogy?
More indepth it's a Trireme (B5) up against CVN 67 (SW)
Imperial hulls are impregnated with neutronium and are constructed of alloys refined over 25,000 years (the only things of comparable vintage in B5 are the space boogers the Shadows and Vorlons use, and run of the mill young races can take them down with heavy challenge.)
Shield technology is a rarity in B5, by in large SW technology is way over their head.
When it comes down to it any B5 civilization is going to need a big industrial revolution to...
All I can see B5 powers managing is a 'counterfeit' Star Destroyer, their currently available technology and skill applied to a 1.600 meter long dagger shaped ship. Most B5 captial ships are in the size range already, so a false look-a-like could be managed with available tech.#3 also, do you think that B5 powers have a prayer of reverse engineering bits of imperial tech if they get their hands on it? what specific improvements might they make?
Genuine replication, far beyond them. The only races with enough knowledge to credibly reverse engineer, went the booger route for starship construction, so their metallurgical skill is pretty close to zero.
The only use a planet would have is breeding stock, the infrastructure is worthless for repair. in a few decades cheap knock-offs could enter service (a "Star Destroyer" with the performance, stamina, and capability of a Warlock Class) appearances to Imperial equipment are skin deep.#4 if/when the Imperials conquer something, can they even USE the tech base that they end up controlling? again, if a modern carrier conquers scapa flow circa 1890, it doesn't mean the facilities there are useful to them for making repairs etc.
Centuries#5 IF their infrastructure IS useful, how long will it take for SW engineers to retool them?
All that could be managed in a lifespan is small arms, in 30 years of R&D the EA could field a comparable copy of an E-11 blaster, (power is the problem, PPG's are extremely anemic, miniaturizing a credible power source is going to take time.)
Something on the scale of an XX-9, power generation constraints will keep them silent for a good century and a half AFTER the E-11 clone is serviceable.
Their soldiers not farmers, they can only occupy civilized worlds. In the end they would just found a new Empire, and get displaced by the native population (John Sheridan Jr. in Stormtrooper armor) in a few decades.#6 how capable will the men on the death squadron be at colonization if they are taken to B5 space by surprise and that wasn't their original mission?
Psychologically, it'll be rough for them, culture shock + not being able to be with their families again, suicide rate will be high, and everyone would be suffering from moderate to severe depression (only exception, if we retcon the troopers as clones, it doesn't make a difference to them.)
Lord Vader and Admiral Piett would have a very difficult task in keeping morale up and ensuring that their new Empire is stable with a peaceful transitions to 'bottom up' native control, Earth born NCO's to displace aging out Imperial born + casualties, ditto longer-term with officers. Political side would be a different nut to crack, depending on POD it could be easy (Earth Minbari War, The Empire "saves" the human race and has the EA's undying gratitude) or hard (series run, Mars, Proxima, and a couple other worlds wouldn't play ball + half the Earth military would mutiny.)
Re: Death Squadron in B5
A Star Destroyer almost certainly has enough of an onboard library that actual loss of knowledge won't be an issue, so the real threat is material attrition - things breaking in an irreparable and, in another galaxy, irreplaceable manner. Fortunately Star Destroyers carry prefabricated garrison bases, independant installations that include hundreds of technicians, extensive repair facilities, and the construction droids to put them together. Admittedly, those repair facilities are a little ambiguous, but since the bases are meant to be deployed as the major Imperial presence for an entire world, or perhaps star system, they must of necessity include some fabrication facilities as well. Demographics problems could be handled in a fairly straightforward manner by recruiting from the Earth Alliance, I'd think.
Here, things get a little more speculative. If the Imperial tech base is amenable, those base fabricators could be used to maintain the squadron's capabilities by setting up on some out-of-the-way world and immediately getting to work building the tools to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools to build hypermatter reactors, to however many iterations are required. Obviously this requires things like hypermatter and Tibanna gas to exist in B5, but usually we handwave that for this kind of scenario. If the bases can do this, and not run out of supplies while doing it, the Imperials have a chance of not losing their tech advantage to attrition.
Of course, the Shadows would probably blow up the fabrication planet the instant the squadron left, but there you have it.
Here, things get a little more speculative. If the Imperial tech base is amenable, those base fabricators could be used to maintain the squadron's capabilities by setting up on some out-of-the-way world and immediately getting to work building the tools to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools to build hypermatter reactors, to however many iterations are required. Obviously this requires things like hypermatter and Tibanna gas to exist in B5, but usually we handwave that for this kind of scenario. If the bases can do this, and not run out of supplies while doing it, the Imperials have a chance of not losing their tech advantage to attrition.
Of course, the Shadows would probably blow up the fabrication planet the instant the squadron left, but there you have it.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Re: Death Squadron in B5
I didn't NOT like the answers I got, I just wanted to focus more on technical aspects this time around... I used the same thread title, mea culpa.
In any case thank you all, this is all very helpful
In any case thank you all, this is all very helpful
"Democratic Korps (of those who are) Beneficently Anti-Government"Terralthra wrote:It's similar to the Arabic word for "one who sows discord" or "one who crushes underfoot". It'd be like if the acronym for the some Tea Party thing was "DKBAG" or something. In one sense, it's just the acronym for ISIL/ISIS in Arabic: Dawlat (al-) Islāmiyya ‘Irāq Shām, but it's also an insult.
Re: Death Squadron in B5
I could say the same thing about a current CVN and a internet collection. Stranded on an island even will limitless base resources they will not be fabricating anything major. Knowledge and education don't work that way. If will help with SOME minor things, but nothing major.Esquire wrote:A Star Destroyer almost certainly has enough of an onboard library that actual loss of knowledge won't be an issue
Re: Death Squadron in B5
Can you expand on that? Obviously you couldn't do much with only Space Wikipedia, but Imperial ships spend lots of time in hyperspace, cut off from regular communications, and have to provide entertainment and continuing education for a small city; I really can't imagine why they wouldn't have some Turbolaser Engineering 101 textbooks and the like lying around. Plus, this is a society where a dirt-cheap, home-built robot can speak six million languages. Data storage is not precisely hard to come by.
Actually, that might be an argument for including technical libraries in major warships as a matter of routine, as with modern pilot's emergency kits - data storage is so cheap that if even one Star Destroyer ever finds itself stranded on an undiscovered world, the investment to give the crew the knowledge to build a hyperspace beacon would pay off.
Actually, that might be an argument for including technical libraries in major warships as a matter of routine, as with modern pilot's emergency kits - data storage is so cheap that if even one Star Destroyer ever finds itself stranded on an undiscovered world, the investment to give the crew the knowledge to build a hyperspace beacon would pay off.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Re: Death Squadron in B5
Then why have space academies or universities at all? If you don't need educators or any particularly scarce education resource to create top tier military professionals why do they exist in universe?Esquire wrote:Can you expand on that? Obviously you couldn't do much with only Space Wikipedia, but Imperial ships spend lots of time in hyperspace, cut off from regular communications, and have to provide entertainment and continuing education for a small city; I really can't imagine why they wouldn't have some Turbolaser Engineering 101 textbooks and the like lying around. Plus, this is a society where a dirt-cheap, home-built robot can speak six million languages. Data storage is not precisely hard to come by.
I am not sure why you think Imperial warships are cut off from communication very often. During the actual hyperspace jumps sure, but there is nothing to indicate warship jumps during any normal duty station in Imperial space is anything more than a few hours to maybe max a few days. Especially using military grade hyperspace drive as described.
Even now modern warships lose internet connectivity often, whether it be low side or high side. It all depends on the position of you and the satellite and the bandwidth provided to your vessel. In the eighties you were lucky to get a phone call off.
And my point is not that they can't have the data on hand, the point is education doesn't work that way. Sure there are a few people out there that self educate themselves into a field. Even some very technical fields. They are not the norm or anywhere close to us. Most of us take classes from a specialist who have dedicated their entire lives to a very small slice of knowledge and use their skill at it to impart an even small part of that slice into us. This is usually the end of it as most people don't need a whole slice, but rather small parts of lots of different slices.
Thats the education level of a warship crew, a lot of people with a base knowledge in many things so they can understand the requirements to OPERATE equipment, not build. They will become expert operators, but they will be no more expert physicist than Oppenheimer was an expert in building or dropping atomic bombs.
On my last ship we had a pretty educationally impressive wardroom. One Harvard grad, two MIT grads, a Rhodes Scholar and a few Olmstead scholars (either had completed or were selected to complete). That’s pretty unusual for one ship, and especially a small one like a DDG. Despite this none were going to look at a SPY-1 schematic and ever comprehend how to build it from scratch or even a part of it. That took hundreds of purpose trained engineers with lifetimes of experience on that single type of gear and decades devoted to that specific peice of gear. Not to mention that’s just designing and undestanding the finished product. You then needed people who were experts in materials and fabrication to make that design happen. And so on and so on.
A hyperspace beacon is not the same thing as another Star Destroyer. Or even 1/10th of a star destroyer. And while in general technology seems to be largely stagnant in the SW uinverse and we are told this over an over again every other movie or book has a new design or weapon coming out that is leaps and bounds better than anything else. So whether you want to say they have found innovative ways to utilize current technology or created new stuff its obvious they have reasons to keep things secret or otherwise not make them generally known or knowable from every shipwrech out there.Actually, that might be an argument for including technical libraries in major warships as a matter of routine, as with modern pilot's emergency kits - data storage is so cheap that if even one Star Destroyer ever finds itself stranded on an undiscovered world, the investment to give the crew the knowledge to build a hyperspace beacon would pay off.
Has the Empire had problems with ISDs getting stranded somewhere and having to recreate Empires from scratch?
Re: Death Squadron in B5
I don't mean to suggest that the squadron's personnel could rebuild the Imperial tech base from scratch; I'm claiming that they wouldn't be starting from scratch at all.
They've got heavy construction equipment, half a dozen or more independent bases which are each enough to secure an entire planet, and the ridiculous amounts of data that come with Imperial-level storage technologies. Even in the modern first world there's roughly one PhD or equivalent per 400 people in the US, or a little more (1.75 million as of the 2000 census), and Death Squadron's total complement is well over 300,000 including at the very least 72,000 officers. That's assuming that the Executor as well as both the battlecruisers Wookiepedia says are part of the squadron have the same complement as a standard SD, by the way, since I couldn't find convenient crew breakdowns. The officers, at least, will be much more likely than the average population to hold advanced degrees, or their Imperial equivalent, to say nothing of the senior technical ratings and warrant officers.
Those same more-then-72,000 officers, moreover, will be among the most capable people in the Imperial Navy, itself formed from the best in the galaxy since a cosmos-bestriding titan like the Empire can afford to be very selective when it comes to its recruiting. This is a society where any household appliance knows millions of times more than the average human; naval officers and crews would have to be pretty exceptional for the Clone Wars to have made any sense whatsoever. If even one of them has an interest in the history of his technology, which doesn't seem unlikely, the same information technology that can teach a robot six million languages can certainly cram a technical library into a mile-long warship. Or rather eight of them, three significantly larger and all with a population the size of a small city and a much more probable need to come up with some kind of field-expedient to usual maintenance procedures.
They've got heavy construction equipment, half a dozen or more independent bases which are each enough to secure an entire planet, and the ridiculous amounts of data that come with Imperial-level storage technologies. Even in the modern first world there's roughly one PhD or equivalent per 400 people in the US, or a little more (1.75 million as of the 2000 census), and Death Squadron's total complement is well over 300,000 including at the very least 72,000 officers. That's assuming that the Executor as well as both the battlecruisers Wookiepedia says are part of the squadron have the same complement as a standard SD, by the way, since I couldn't find convenient crew breakdowns. The officers, at least, will be much more likely than the average population to hold advanced degrees, or their Imperial equivalent, to say nothing of the senior technical ratings and warrant officers.
Those same more-then-72,000 officers, moreover, will be among the most capable people in the Imperial Navy, itself formed from the best in the galaxy since a cosmos-bestriding titan like the Empire can afford to be very selective when it comes to its recruiting. This is a society where any household appliance knows millions of times more than the average human; naval officers and crews would have to be pretty exceptional for the Clone Wars to have made any sense whatsoever. If even one of them has an interest in the history of his technology, which doesn't seem unlikely, the same information technology that can teach a robot six million languages can certainly cram a technical library into a mile-long warship. Or rather eight of them, three significantly larger and all with a population the size of a small city and a much more probable need to come up with some kind of field-expedient to usual maintenance procedures.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Re: Death Squadron in B5
Having access to that technology is not the same thing as being able to utilize it.
In any case I am not sure where you got the idea that the star destroyers have some instant planetary industry pills. They carry a few prehab garrison bases but nowhere is it said they are for holding down a planet of any particular population or any popation. They are for a starship to put a few ground troops down without worrying about housing or short term logistics and excersise some policing power in a backwater or specific area. Take a look at the size of an ISD, think about how much internal volume one of those prefab bases could possibly take up relative to the rest of the ship, and then factor in how many storm troopers are on board. You are looking at the equivalent of a few A/C CONEX boxes and some hesco barriers with a MEU sitting in Afghanistan. Not some planet dominating fortress of doom with the hundreds of thousands to millions of troops needed to garrison any planet of note.
As for construction equipment where are you getting this? I am sure the ground forces have some prime movers and the like but what does that have to do with repairing or building starship parts. Construction equipment is specialized and you can't build an aircraft carrier with the gear you use for a parking lot. Similarly the equipment to build garrison fortifications on the plant is irrelevant to servicing a starship in orbit. Yes the Star dDesgeoyer has a limited raw resource supply which apparently gives it a years endurance if need be. That's what's needed for normal operations. We know warships in the star wars universe require regular refit and overhaul so obviously that store and the ability of the crew to use it are not good enough.
And what you are saying about crew size is all relative. A Star Destroyer might have 37kish crew, but the ship is big. Many times that of a 5000+ crew CVN by volume. They are probably equivalent. The SSDs have thousands of times the volume of an ISD with only hundreds of time the crew. The point is they have a lot of work to do already to keep together and fight their ships as it is, and the crews are assumed to be optimized to this purpose. Warships don't care around much in slack when it comes to manning. Now divorced from their normal logistics support it will be all they can do to keep things running while their ships are in top condition, once they start running out of spares onhand things will go south real quick. And now you want them to learn how to build a hypermatter reactor from a blueprint on top of all that?!
In any case I am not sure where you got the idea that the star destroyers have some instant planetary industry pills. They carry a few prehab garrison bases but nowhere is it said they are for holding down a planet of any particular population or any popation. They are for a starship to put a few ground troops down without worrying about housing or short term logistics and excersise some policing power in a backwater or specific area. Take a look at the size of an ISD, think about how much internal volume one of those prefab bases could possibly take up relative to the rest of the ship, and then factor in how many storm troopers are on board. You are looking at the equivalent of a few A/C CONEX boxes and some hesco barriers with a MEU sitting in Afghanistan. Not some planet dominating fortress of doom with the hundreds of thousands to millions of troops needed to garrison any planet of note.
As for construction equipment where are you getting this? I am sure the ground forces have some prime movers and the like but what does that have to do with repairing or building starship parts. Construction equipment is specialized and you can't build an aircraft carrier with the gear you use for a parking lot. Similarly the equipment to build garrison fortifications on the plant is irrelevant to servicing a starship in orbit. Yes the Star dDesgeoyer has a limited raw resource supply which apparently gives it a years endurance if need be. That's what's needed for normal operations. We know warships in the star wars universe require regular refit and overhaul so obviously that store and the ability of the crew to use it are not good enough.
And what you are saying about crew size is all relative. A Star Destroyer might have 37kish crew, but the ship is big. Many times that of a 5000+ crew CVN by volume. They are probably equivalent. The SSDs have thousands of times the volume of an ISD with only hundreds of time the crew. The point is they have a lot of work to do already to keep together and fight their ships as it is, and the crews are assumed to be optimized to this purpose. Warships don't care around much in slack when it comes to manning. Now divorced from their normal logistics support it will be all they can do to keep things running while their ships are in top condition, once they start running out of spares onhand things will go south real quick. And now you want them to learn how to build a hypermatter reactor from a blueprint on top of all that?!
Re: Death Squadron in B5
The construction droids are from Wookiepedia, and they're sufficient to put up a base that's - while insignificant for a galactic civilization, I freely admit it - some hundred meters tall, plus an indeterminate number of basement levels, and holds several squadrons of TIE-series craft. These garrisons are, again, usually deployed on outworlds, and include at least some local fabrication capability, although how much is unclear.
No, they can't immediately and infallibly establish an Imperial-standard industrial complex, but that's not what I'm trying to argue; I'm suggesting that given the above combined with extensive technical documents and AI up the wazoo a full Imperial squadron could probably cobble together enough industrial capability, combined with local purchases for non-critical areas, to not backslide completely.
As regards crewing, that's a very good point. A Star Destroyer with half its crew on the ground doing infrastructure work probably wouldn't be very effective in a fight, but it doesn't really need to be, does it? Leave the thing in a geostationary orbit with enough of the crew on board to keep the engine from exploding, raise shields, and set the heavy guns to autofire, and call it a day; nothing in the B5 universe short of a Vorlon planet-killer is a serious threat to an Imperial warship, much less a whole squadron of them.
Also - and I'm almost certainly being naive here, this is honest wondering - what would be the problem with building a reactor from a blueprint if you've already got a bunch of independent, intelligent heavy construction equipment sitting right there? The B5 races may not be quite up to scratch but they're still FTL-capable, advanced societies; they can handle precision manufacturing and they'd be happy to turn over some factory components if the alternative is fiery destruction at the hands of the Minbari, for the EA, or these new invulnerable superships, for everybody else.
No, they can't immediately and infallibly establish an Imperial-standard industrial complex, but that's not what I'm trying to argue; I'm suggesting that given the above combined with extensive technical documents and AI up the wazoo a full Imperial squadron could probably cobble together enough industrial capability, combined with local purchases for non-critical areas, to not backslide completely.
As regards crewing, that's a very good point. A Star Destroyer with half its crew on the ground doing infrastructure work probably wouldn't be very effective in a fight, but it doesn't really need to be, does it? Leave the thing in a geostationary orbit with enough of the crew on board to keep the engine from exploding, raise shields, and set the heavy guns to autofire, and call it a day; nothing in the B5 universe short of a Vorlon planet-killer is a serious threat to an Imperial warship, much less a whole squadron of them.
Also - and I'm almost certainly being naive here, this is honest wondering - what would be the problem with building a reactor from a blueprint if you've already got a bunch of independent, intelligent heavy construction equipment sitting right there? The B5 races may not be quite up to scratch but they're still FTL-capable, advanced societies; they can handle precision manufacturing and they'd be happy to turn over some factory components if the alternative is fiery destruction at the hands of the Minbari, for the EA, or these new invulnerable superships, for everybody else.
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Eternal_Freedom
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
I would think that one way to handle an ISD with a reduced crew would be to deploy the Stormtroopers to the surface. No doubt they can be of use for manual labour. Also, don't deploy TIE fighters. They probably won't be necessary, and since fighters would almost always take losses not deploying them in combat would reduce casualties of vital Imperial-educated personnel. Additionally, this allows you to use all the associated support staff on the surface, since they will be technicians and engineers used to working with Imperial technology.
If the ships stay in orbit, then crew complements can be further reduced, run them on a skeleton crew like Esquire said.
If the ships stay in orbit, then crew complements can be further reduced, run them on a skeleton crew like Esquire said.
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
That may actually be SOP for the garrison bases, now that you mention it. It would make a lot more sense than carrying around entire spare squadrons of fighters and never using them.
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PREDATOR490
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
Star Wars has demonstrated that a slave can happily build a droid and pod racer from scavenged parts. Who is in charge of this Imperial Fleet... that slave. Manual labor should not be a problem for a universe that has the ability to manufacture droids and a slave child can make C3PO. The ships should already have parts and droid workers so building an automated work force will not be a problem. Not to mention that exporting that droid tech would effectively revolutionize the B5 universe on it's own.
The B5 universe wont be able to churn out Star Destroyers, but providing the resources to make even the most simple of droids should be more than reasonable. Occupy a world and turn it into a new Genosis droid manufacturing planet with the help of Construction Droids chewing up the raw resources into usable materials.
Making an ally out of the EA would be as simple as showing them how to make Artificial Gravity. The EA no longer needs to use rotating modules and it wont upset the balance of power that much because the other races already have similar technologies. The best thing the B5 universe can offer the Empire would be the Vorlon / Shadow organic technology. Vorlons can make humans into telepaths, that could be useful to the Empire. That said, the squishy mechanics are not going to be that useful for anything beyond research.
The B5 universe wont be able to churn out Star Destroyers, but providing the resources to make even the most simple of droids should be more than reasonable. Occupy a world and turn it into a new Genosis droid manufacturing planet with the help of Construction Droids chewing up the raw resources into usable materials.
Making an ally out of the EA would be as simple as showing them how to make Artificial Gravity. The EA no longer needs to use rotating modules and it wont upset the balance of power that much because the other races already have similar technologies. The best thing the B5 universe can offer the Empire would be the Vorlon / Shadow organic technology. Vorlons can make humans into telepaths, that could be useful to the Empire. That said, the squishy mechanics are not going to be that useful for anything beyond research.
Re: Death Squadron in B5
The balance of power will go on it's head just with the Death Squadron (manned mostly with humans) showing up in Earth orbit and asking for a partnership. The other races will automatically assume the worst and one of the more headstrong ones will probably launch a first strike and set the snowball rolling.The EA no longer needs to use rotating modules and it wont upset the balance of power that much
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
See, Anakin could build a droid and a pod racer from scavenged parts... but the parts in question were parts for a droid and a pod racer. The ability to build a working automobile from car parts in a junkyard does not confer the ability to forge a working engine block.PREDATOR490 wrote:Star Wars has demonstrated that a slave can happily build a droid and pod racer from scavenged parts. Who is in charge of this Imperial Fleet... that slave. Manual labor should not be a problem for a universe that has the ability to manufacture droids and a slave child can make C3PO. The ships should already have parts and droid workers so building an automated work force will not be a problem. Not to mention that exporting that droid tech would effectively revolutionize the B5 universe on it's own.
The B5 universe wont be able to churn out Star Destroyers, but providing the resources to make even the most simple of droids should be more than reasonable. Occupy a world and turn it into a new Genosis droid manufacturing planet with the help of Construction Droids chewing up the raw resources into usable materials.
So it's a relevant question whether Death Squadron carries with it the means to produce droids once its supply of premade parts for the droids they already have are exhausted.
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
Listen to this. It is wisdom.Crazedwraith wrote: But since this is fanfic. These questions are nearly irrelevant. The object is to tell a story. You need to think about characters, interactions, the plot. And make decisions on what's best for that. Fanfic's that are based on what debaters think would 'actually' happen generally come off as boring since one side greatly overwhelms the other.
It is very hard to write a good fic that actually follows what the tech debaters argue, since you end up tangling yourself up in tech issues and risk a boring fic due to power disparity.
Not that artificially-enforced equality is optimal either. You have to use your head about it. Making SW FTL just as fast as B5 FTL would be monumentally bad, for instance, because it breaks the SOD. Rather, don't let the tech issues take precedence over story. If a good part of the story requires, say, HTLs to only be powerful enough to damage a Minbari Warcruiser instead of vaporizing it in one hit, then that's what you have to do to make the story work.
....granted, you will then smash SOD for the tech debater types, who will angrily dismiss your fic as B5wank as swiftly as a B5 fan will angrily dismiss it as SW wank if you adhere strictly to tech debater stuff. But that's going to be part of any crossover fic. That's why the goal is to make the story and characters engrossing enough that all but the extremists will ignore the irritation your material causes because hey, this story is interesting, and they've gotta see what you're doing wth it!
And that is my $.02 on the subject.
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"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia
American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.
DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
Re: Death Squadron in B5
I think it's easy to maintain the SOD even with the tech imbalance as long as you tell a good story. For instance, you don't have to gimp the Heavy turbolasers...just don't give the imperials reason to use them. Make the story more about politics and less about simple combat. Vader is not an idiot, he knows he'll need to make allies. Why not have the story be about political and personal conflicts, culture clash, etc... Save the battles for a time when the firepower advantage is desired...such as a full scale Shadow attack against Earth?
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Simon_Jester
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Re: Death Squadron in B5
Well, it may be desirable to reduce the firepower disparity even so. If we go by the versus debaters on this board, Death Squadron has absolutely everything outclassed including the Shadows and Vorlons.
I encountered this issue when I was drafting out a Star Wars/Lensman crossover (never wrote it, but I did get a partial story outline and thought through the technical issues). That was fun because of mismatch; individual Star Wars ships are (going by this board's consensus) vastly more powerful than Lensman ships of equal tonnage*. Their FTL drive is much faster.
On the other hand, the Lensmanverse FTL drive allows for bizarre tactical FTL antics, and the sheer overwhelming numbers of ships they have and can effectively coordinate and control means they actually can swarm Star Destroyers with tens of thousands of ships if that's what it takes to win.** Which created a compelling enough picture that I didn't need to tweak what heavy turbolasers would be capable of.
But I would have if I'd had to, because creatively reinterpreting turbolaser power output is a lot easier than creatively inventing a plot where Darth Vader has massively superior firepower but somehow decides not to use it.
*(All the more so because I set it early in the arms race that gave rise to the TVTropes name for arms races).
**(Also, Galactic Patrol troopers against stormtroopers FOR THE WIN!)
[coughs, removes his Doc Smith fan T-shirt]
I encountered this issue when I was drafting out a Star Wars/Lensman crossover (never wrote it, but I did get a partial story outline and thought through the technical issues). That was fun because of mismatch; individual Star Wars ships are (going by this board's consensus) vastly more powerful than Lensman ships of equal tonnage*. Their FTL drive is much faster.
On the other hand, the Lensmanverse FTL drive allows for bizarre tactical FTL antics, and the sheer overwhelming numbers of ships they have and can effectively coordinate and control means they actually can swarm Star Destroyers with tens of thousands of ships if that's what it takes to win.** Which created a compelling enough picture that I didn't need to tweak what heavy turbolasers would be capable of.
But I would have if I'd had to, because creatively reinterpreting turbolaser power output is a lot easier than creatively inventing a plot where Darth Vader has massively superior firepower but somehow decides not to use it.
*(All the more so because I set it early in the arms race that gave rise to the TVTropes name for arms races).
**(Also, Galactic Patrol troopers against stormtroopers FOR THE WIN!)
[coughs, removes his Doc Smith fan T-shirt]
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Re: Death Squadron in B5
Well not "somehow". I mean we've discussed how the Death Squadron (even under ideal circumstances) would have a supply and personnel problem. While making a short demonstration of force is quite in character, extended military operations would waste energy that could not be easily replaced. I don't think Vader would run his ships dry shooting everything in sight when making alliances would be more useful in the long run.But I would have if I'd had to, because creatively reinterpreting turbolaser power output is a lot easier than creatively inventing a plot where Darth Vader has massively superior firepower but somehow decides not to use it.
With that said though, instead of the Death Squadron, how about a single Star Destroyer? Say for instance a wormhole opened up during Vader's pursuit of the Tantive IV and pulled both ships into the B-5 verse. A single Stardestroyer would not be nearly as overpowering as the Death Squadron, and if the Tantive escaped after the transit, that would provide an interesting side plot or eventually a counter to Vader.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Re: Death Squadron in B5
You can have an exchange where the Imperials decide to remain their ship. "Devastator" might give off the wrong impresison when trying to convince a local power you are really good guys looking for friends. Maybe "HIMS Sunshine"?
Or the right one I guess depending on who you approach and why!
Or the right one I guess depending on who you approach and why!
Re: Death Squadron in B5
I think the Imperial (and especially Vader) MO is to threaten overwhelming force and then reward (or at least be lenient) with those who prove helpful.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
Re: Death Squadron in B5
Maybe, or is Vader really so inflexible? The Emperor surely knows how to use both the carrot or the stick, and even when he is using both do his manipulation victims always outright know the one is right behind the other? In Vader's case I think the answer is most assuredly no, as we see in ANH he is not the most powerful of the Emperors inner circle by a long shot and can’t just threaten his way to success in that atmosphere. He is pretty successful despite that. Then there is the Noghri, who he didn’t threaten at all even though he could have just threatened to flatten their planet from orbit to get his way. It probably wouldn’t have worked, but that’s the point, he knew that and moderated his behavior accordingly.
Other things you could write about is whether or not Vader declares himself Emperor, and if the rest of Death Squadron is cool with that. Is half the fleet is dedicated to finding a way home and sees Vader as an opportunistic imposter who they must oppose or face the wrath of the Emperor if they return? Does the other half consider return an unrealistic fantasy and reforging the Empire in their new circumstances with them at the top with their new Emperor the priority? Does this cause a violent fallout, with each side pulling in BF5 factions into their camp as reinforcements?
Or is Death Squadron really not blindly loyal to Vader but rather a hodgepodge of interests from the Emperor’s stable of powerful courtesans who divorced from the Empire proper and their patron's control have no intention of following this strange murdering lunatic zealot anywhere in this new setting? Are there Imperials present who think THEY should be the one to claim the new throne?
The above is not technical in nature but what it does is give you competing factions with equivalent SW tech (minus whoever the Executor goes to I guess). In this scenario where the SW forces are in possible stalemate the B5 universe factions and tech can come into play, the straw that broke the camel’s back so to say.
Other things you could write about is whether or not Vader declares himself Emperor, and if the rest of Death Squadron is cool with that. Is half the fleet is dedicated to finding a way home and sees Vader as an opportunistic imposter who they must oppose or face the wrath of the Emperor if they return? Does the other half consider return an unrealistic fantasy and reforging the Empire in their new circumstances with them at the top with their new Emperor the priority? Does this cause a violent fallout, with each side pulling in BF5 factions into their camp as reinforcements?
Or is Death Squadron really not blindly loyal to Vader but rather a hodgepodge of interests from the Emperor’s stable of powerful courtesans who divorced from the Empire proper and their patron's control have no intention of following this strange murdering lunatic zealot anywhere in this new setting? Are there Imperials present who think THEY should be the one to claim the new throne?
The above is not technical in nature but what it does is give you competing factions with equivalent SW tech (minus whoever the Executor goes to I guess). In this scenario where the SW forces are in possible stalemate the B5 universe factions and tech can come into play, the straw that broke the camel’s back so to say.