An argument about Big Bang Theory

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

Post Reply
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

So, in some random internet perusing on this rainy Saturday evening, I ended up across this post in the comments section of this article.

Cosmology in general is a field I find incredibly interesting, but I know very little about it or the physics behind it. That said, I found the comment to be interesting, and wanted to post it here to see what people more versed in the field would have to say in response to it. Is this a valid argument on his part? Is he guilty of some fundamental understanding, or does he know what he is talking about?
One basic problem I have with Big Bang Theory is using relativity to argue space itself expands and those distant galaxies will eventually disappear.

If this space is relativistic, than the speed of light should remain constant to it, so if it expands, the speed of light should increase accordingly. Yet then those distant galaxies wouldn't disappear, because the light from them would be speeding up proportionally, presumably due to dark energy/inflation/big bang also adding energy to the light. Otherwise, the speed of light would seem to be determined by an otherwise stable vacuum and if the distance is to be denominated in these stable units, then the expansion would be the numerator and that is not expanding space, but an increasing distance, as measured in stable units. As with the doppler effect, the train moving away isn't expanding space, but moving in stable space.

Which then gets back to why we appear as the center of this expansion. Logically we are the center of our perception of the universe and so an optical cause for redshift wouldn't require increasing numbers of extreme patches to keep it together. If this effect compounds, that would explain why the more distant redshift drops off much faster than the closer redshift, rather than needing dark energy to explain this change of pace.
User avatar
Borgholio
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2010-09-03 09:31pm
Location: Southern California

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Borgholio »

He's missing two points.

1. Space is expanding but it's easiest to think of it like you're driving on a highway and the highway is being built in front of you faster than you are driving. Your speed does not increase just because the highway is getting longer, even if it is stretching beneath your very wheels.

2. Redshift is a result of the expansion of the universe. It doesn't happen at a constant rate everywhere you look.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Borgholio wrote: 1. Space is expanding but it's easiest to think of it like you're driving on a highway and the highway is being built in front of you faster than you are driving. Your speed does not increase just because the highway is getting longer, even if it is stretching beneath your very wheels.
Is this was relativity predicts? The core of his argument seems to be that if relativity holds, the universe would be observed to behave differently. Is he just misinterpreting relativity?
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by madd0ct0r »

If this space is relativistic, than the speed of light should remain constant to it, so if it expands, the speed of light should increase accordingly.
I'm 90% sure that's wrong. He reckons light is relativistic to space, when light is relativistic to c.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Kuroneko
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2469
Joined: 2003-03-13 03:10am
Location: Fréchet space
Contact:

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Kuroneko »

If one takes the comment step by step, it makes no sense at all. At best it's based on the writer's entirely private mental pictures that appear to be quite disconnected from actual physics. For example, even the first sentence:
If this space is relativistic, ...
What does that mean?
[then] the speed of light should remain constant to it, ...
What does that mean?
the speed of light should increase accordingly.
Why?

I don't ask these question just to tweak the writer. Rather, those statements honestly doesn't communicate anything to me. Sure, I can make guesses about what the writer could have said that is both correct and sounds vaguely like what was actually said, and yet if those repairs are made, the conclusion doesn't follow in the slightest.

In general relativity, spacetime is locally special-relativistic. What this means physically is that any freely-falling experiment over sufficiently small region of spacetime (i.e., small in extent and short in duration) will have results that agree with the same experiment done in the flat spacetime of special relativity. Somewhat more precisely, the deviation between them will be zero to first order in the size of the experiment.

Is the speed of light constant is general relativity? It surely is locally: in other words, if you have an observer that measures the time a light ray takes to traverse some distance over a spacetime region of a certain size, that will give c in the limit of zero size. But this statement is completely consistent with some other result over experiments that are large in spatial extent and/or temporal durations.

Put another way, relativity requires that the speed of light is invariant over inertial frames. But in general relativity, inertial frames are only ever local: over non-infinitesimal regions, they are approximations correct only to first order.

Now, mathematically, all the above really means is that spacetime is a a pseudo-Riemannian manifold with a Lorentzian metric. Any such manifold whatsoever is consistent with the locally-special-relativistic requirement whenever it is nonsingular, including ones with arbitrarily expanding space. That doesn't mean that any such manifold is automatically physically reasonable; rather, it just means that if it's not physical, then it's due to some failing completely independent from the attempted criticisms in the comment. The comment is incoherent even without considerations of any particular relationship between spacetime curvature and stress-energy (which is the main content of general relativity).
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

My favorite explanation for how to visualize the expansion of the universe, comes an explanation use for kids..

Think of a balloon with lots of dots painted on it and the dots represent stars.
As you blow it up, the dots all expand equally apart, just like the stars expand.
Except...
What ou need to think about, is that instead of being in the 'middle' of the ballon, we are "inside" the skin of the ballon.
So no mater how we look, it seems the universe expands equally.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
Borgholio
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2010-09-03 09:31pm
Location: Southern California

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Borgholio »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Borgholio wrote: 1. Space is expanding but it's easiest to think of it like you're driving on a highway and the highway is being built in front of you faster than you are driving. Your speed does not increase just because the highway is getting longer, even if it is stretching beneath your very wheels.
Is this was relativity predicts? The core of his argument seems to be that if relativity holds, the universe would be observed to behave differently. Is he just misinterpreting relativity?
Relativity simply relates to how fast objects or energies move within the confines of spacetime. If spacetime itself is moving faster than light then it doesn't violate relativity because it's not included in the theory. The movement of spacetime is a whole different ball of wax.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
User avatar
Jaepheth
Jedi Master
Posts: 1055
Joined: 2004-03-18 02:13am
Location: between epsilon and zero

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Jaepheth »

Hey, Kuroneko. Most of what you (ever) said is over my head, but I was wondering if you could clarify this:
"inertial frames are only ever local: over non-infinitesimal regions"

Do you mean bounded (not infinite), or that the space is "quantized" (I think that's the right word)
I ask because I usually read "infinitesimal" as meaning small, which in this case I'm interpreting to mean something akin to "not continuous" likely related to the Planck constant.


Reply to OP: IMO, Kuroneko's post(s) demonstrate that layman's analogies can only get you so far, and at some point intuition fails and if you can't do or follow the math you need to shut up.
Children of the Ancients
I'm sorry, but the number you have dialed is imaginary. Please rotate the phone by 90 degrees and try again.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, that OR you need to stop and recalibrate your intuition.

When people come up with a layman's intuitive analogy, encounter a scientific fact that appears to contradict it, and then reject the fact because it contradicts the analogy, stupidity ensues.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Kuroneko
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2469
Joined: 2003-03-13 03:10am
Location: Fréchet space
Contact:

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Kuroneko »

Jaepheth wrote:Hey, Kuroneko. Most of what you (ever) said is over my head, but I was wondering if you could clarify this:
"inertial frames are only ever local: over non-infinitesimal regions, they are approximations correct only to first order."
Everything here is continuous. What I mean is that (a) in GTR, inertial frames are exact over infinitesimally small regions of spacetime, (b) over larger regions, they are only approximations.

The very rough intuitive meaning is basically the same as "if you zoom in close enough on curved surface, it looks flat". But it isn't actually flat, so if you treat it as such, you only get an approximation. I'll try to motivate it in a more precise way shortly.
Jaepheth wrote:I ask because I usually read "infinitesimal" as meaning small, which in this case I'm interpreting to mean something akin to "not continuous" likely related to the Planck constant.
I don't know how much calculus you're familiar with, but if you are, this is the same sense as used in calculus.

If you're not, let me illustrate it by explaining roughly what kind of thing I was talking about in referring to approximation 'to first order' or 'to second order', etc. Suppose you want to approximate some smooth function, say f(x) = ex, near some known value, say at a = 0. I picked this because it's simple: e0 = 1, but in any would do. You could say: if my argument is not too far away a, then f(a+Δx) is not too far away from f(a):
[0] f(a+Δx) ≈ f(x), so eΔx ≈ 1, if Δx is small
Let's call this a zeroth-order approximation. And because f is continuous, this works to some extent, e.g., e0.01 ≈ 1.010 ≈ 1. But it's rather terrible if Δx is not small enough, e.g., e0.25 ≈ 1.284. If you know the slope of the tangent line f'(a), and calculus will tell you how to find it, you could do better:
[1] f(a+Δx) ≈ f(a) + (Δx)f'(a), so eΔx ≈ 1 + Δx, if Δx is small
Let's call this a first-order approximation. Note that e0.25 ≈ 1.284 ≈ 1+0.25, better than before. You can see graphically how well it's doing. And calculus will also tell you how to do even better using the value of the second derivative at a:
[2] f(a+Δx) ≈ f(a) + (Δx)f'(a) + (Δx)²f"(a)/2
... and so forth. Also note that if Δx is very small in magnitude, than (Δx)² is much smaller, e.g. 0.001² = 0.000001, etc. If we're taking Δx to 0, then (Δx)² goes to zero "faster" than Δx does, because the limit of their ratio is also 0.

In calculus, the derivative is actually defined as the limit of [1] when Δx tends to zero:
[Def] f'(a) = limΔx→0[ ( f(a+Δx) - f(a) ) / ( Δx ) ].
We could write something like
[???] f(x + dx) = f(x) + f'(x) dx
with infinitesimal dx, as an exact equation. In standard calculus, this would only make sense as a roundabout way of talking about limits: what it would mean taking a real Δx, there may be some error |f(x+Δx)-f(x)|, but as Δx is taken to be of smaller and smaller magnitude, that error goes to zero faster than Δx itself does. In non-standard analysis, we can have infinitesimal numbers directly, but we're not obligated to go in that territory.

----

The path of a particle in free-fall is described by the geodesic equation, which in arbitrary coordinates specifies the second derivatives of the trajectory to be what are called the "connection coefficients" (Einstein called them "components of the gravitational field"). In special relativity, one can build coordinates in which those second derivatives vanish everywhere in spacetime, and so in which the path of every particle in free-fall is given by a line, everywhere and everywhen.

In general relativity, this is no longer possible, although one could at any event (point in spacetime) choose coordinates that make both the connection coefficients and their first derivatives vanish at that event. Which means that near that event, they are approximately zero, to first order in the much same sense as above. The same kind of statement applies to the metric tensor, which physically acts like the potential for the gravitational field: at any event, we can choose coordinates such that it matches the Minkowski metric (the one in special relativity) to first order.

There's also a mostly independent approach based on frame fields, but as the name suggests, what it intuitively corresponds to is stitching together multiple frames in a certain way, and so it's still the case that we can't get a single inertial frame that covers a non-infinitesimal region except as a certain kind of approximation.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Thanks for all the feedback, to everyone that has posted, especially Kuroneko. It's such an interesting topic, and if I weren't extremely busy with work right now this would send me diving into an Internet rabbit hole of astrophysics.
User avatar
Borgholio
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2010-09-03 09:31pm
Location: Southern California

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Borgholio »

this would send me diving into an Internet rabbit hole of astrophysics.
You mean quantum physics and string theory. Astrophysics is child's play compared to this kind of shit. :)
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Ha, fair enough. I always use astrophysics as sort of a catch-all term for cool space shit.
User avatar
Luke Skywalker
Padawan Learner
Posts: 376
Joined: 2011-06-27 01:08am

Re: An argument about Big Bang Theory

Post by Luke Skywalker »

Kuroneko: if you don't mind saying, what do you do for a living/what is your education, exactly? You seem to be spookingly knowledgable about practically everything.
Post Reply