Michael Brown Case

[Thanas]

Yeah, he's in Germany where guns are not always kept by the police. Batons and better physical fitness than most Germans (no kididng, the entry criteria are very very high) are enough in most cases.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yeah, he's in Germany where guns are not always kept by the police. Batons and better physical fitness than most Germans (no kididng, the entry criteria are very very high) are enough in most cases.

and the lack of accessible firearms...

[Thanas]

Oh yeah, that definitely plays a role, I was just explaining how a gun is not necessary per se in Germany.

If a majority of Germans would possibly be crazy (hooray for socialist health care and free mental care) and armed with a gun (hooray for gun control) then sure, guns become a necessity.

EDIT: Molotv cocktails and a few shots fired at them are the largest danger they usually encounter and they still do not carry guns.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oh yeah, that definitely plays a role, I was just explaining how a gun is not necessary per se in Germany.

If a majority of Germans would possibly be crazy (hooray for socialist health care and free mental care) and armed with a gun (hooray for gun control) then sure, guns become a necessity.

EDIT: Molotv cocktails and a few shots fired at them are the largest danger they usually encounter and they still do not carry guns.

Well, it works until it doesn't. Hopefully one of these "I'm going to shoot at cops" guys never decides to go full psycho and pull the following...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P21rjGAuhBo

Imagine that happening to a group of unarmed police.

[Thanas]

That is accepted as a standard risk for police, meaning that even if it happens things will not change. I mean, three years ago left-wing extremists threw an incendiary bomb at police which injured 15 officers. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... Sz74#t=146)

We just expect from our police to take this risk as it has always been their duty to do so.

[salm]

EDIT: Molotv cocktails and a few shots fired at them are the largest danger they usually encounter and they still do not carry guns.

When was the last time riot police got shot at?
People throw fire crackers, bottles, paint and rocks at them but shots?

I really don´t understand why they sometimes do carry guns in the front lines. This just increases the risk that some drunk fuck nut will grab it and hurt somebody with it.
And what kind of advantage does it give them? What are they going to do with it? Shoot people? Shoot at a large group of poeple?

[Thanas]

EDIT: Molotv cocktails and a few shots fired at them are the largest danger they usually encounter and they still do not carry guns.

When was the last time riot police got shot at?

Castor in Gorleben (confirmed) and several unconfirmed reports I read but don't believe in claim this happened in Berlin. There ware also deadly shots fired at police over twenty years ago when it came to the Frankfurt airport.

[salm]

Interesting.

This whole thing reminds me of the way they conducted riot control during the Stuttgart 21 demonstrations 3 or 4 years ago.
The cops escalated the situation for some reason. They shot out some old guys eye ball with a water canon, beat up school kids, perhaps used agent provocateurs and then wondered why people got even angrier.
The state government was not reelected for the first time in decades and the up til today there are still protestors around once week.

[cosmicalstorm]

This video is making the rounds today:
Innocent bystander pepper sprayed and arrested by Westlake security during protest in Seattle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfWjgAK-VsQ

[Channel72]

Whoever got the damn idea of putting police in armored trucks and armed with assault rifles should be fired. Nobody is shooting at them, there is no reason to escalate on that level. Riot shields and batons are plenty enough there. And if you go "BUT THANAS. THINK OF THE RISK" then you can be reminded that every year in Europe you get actual riots, as in molotov cocktails and massive bricks being thrown at police from rooftops and yet nobody there thinks they need to use assault rifles.

In comparison, the oft-criticized Ukrainian police, when faced with an actual uprising in their capital, were not equipped with assault rifles either save a tiny minority. Most of them were using batons and shields - against an uprising that was shooting back. Meanwhile, when faced with a few stores being messed up, the brave US police needs to bring out the armored vehicles and assault rifles.

Those US police in the photos seem to suffer from the "being a massive pussy" and "not being taught proper riot control" symptoms.

I've lived in the US all my life - I have never seen a police response like this to a demonstration. (The OWS response didn't involve this level of force, and it was pretty controversial.) The only police officers that regularly carry automatic weapons/assault rifles are stationed in high-profile places that are likely terrorist targets.

So, this reaction from the Ferguson police is really disturbing and surprising.

[Thanas]

Interesting.

This whole thing reminds me of the way they conducted riot control during the Stuttgart 21 demonstrations 3 or 4 years ago.
The cops escalated the situation for some reason. They shot out some old guys eye ball with a water canon, beat up school kids, perhaps used agent provocateurs and then wondered why people got even angrier.
The state government was not reelected for the first time in decades and the up til today there are still protestors around once week.

Yeah, the thing at Frankfurt went down a bit different. Haven't been able to find a link regarding Castor, but the thing at Frankfurt even has a wiki page.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%B6tun ... tbahn_West

Yeah and Stuttgart was another stupid overreaction by police. I think they received a lot of pressure to clear the area from the higher politicians who wanted to push through their prestigious new train station.

[Borgholio]

The officer who was involved in the shooting has had his name released to the press.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/1 ... 81340.html

Supposedly he and his family already left town. Smart thinking.

[Grumman]

Has anyone mentioned that Brown and Johnson may have robbed a convenience store a few hours before the shooting? I haven't seen any photographs of Brown, but the surveillance video and Johnson's interview after the shooting both show a black man with dreadlocks with a black shirt.

[Thanas]

Yeah, Borgholio linked to the report. I just read the whole thing on scribd. At this point I am inclined to believe the police that he had robbed a convenience store.

It does however do nothing for their version of the shooting incident.

[HMS Sophia]

Batons and better physical fitness than most Germans (no kididng, the entry criteria are very very high) are enough in most cases.

Not to detract from the thread too much, but I've been on the receiving end of Berlin's riot tactics, and they are incredibly professional. They would split, isolate and control large portions of a crowd with little more than 9 or 10 officers (I assume officers) in their armour and batons. Of course they were heavily backed up (May day was a wonderful night) but they mostly operated in very small, capable groups with much, much larger crowds of active rioters.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm having computer trouble viewing some of the linked videos. Let me get this straight:

We have footage of a strong-arm robbery by someone alleged to be Brown and someone alleged to be Johnson, but I can't tell clearly what alleged-Johnson was doing in the footage, although I did spot alleged-Brown shoving the store clerk. But... do we have any positive identification?

And, as Thanas says, I would argue that it's still pretty much impossible to justify shooting the fleeing man in the back at ten yards.

[Terralthra]

The entire "robbery" thing is complete bullshit anyway. The police chief openly admitted that the officer who shot Mike Brown didn't know he was a suspect in anything (assuming he actually was), and that the entire shooting incident stemmed from the apparently capital offense of Not Obeying Police Officer While Black. Meanwhile, the officer in question's incident report for the actual shooting death still has not been released, because clearly the thing to do when everyone from the Governor to the Attorney General to the President of the US is saying "you fucked up, and you need to stop", the best thing to do is act as if you were right all along because ::hand-wave::

Seriously, even Captain Johnson, the MHP Captain who made a night/day difference between the responses to peaceful protest, thinks bringing up the robbery was a mistake, and that's before we even get into the part where the whole thing is clearly a bullshit cover-up. Maybe the police chief should have tried consulting with the guy who managed to not tear gas anyone before going on a blatant character assassination press conference.

[Simon_Jester]

The entire "robbery" thing is complete bullshit anyway. The police chief openly admitted that the officer who shot Mike Brown didn't know he was a suspect in anything (assuming he actually was)...

True.

...and that the entire shooting incident stemmed from the apparently capital offense of Not Obeying Police Officer While Black.

Thiiiis is pretty much what I've been getting at. We've reached a state affairs where, quite often, Disobeying Policeman While Black gets you beaten or shot, and that's a big part of why I've been characterizing this as serving a 'pseudo-Krypteia' function. When

Also note that the police chief says that Wilson's original stop of Brown and Johnson was because "they were walking in the middle of the street, blocking traffic." Now, I don't know if we'll ever see any actual evidence on this, but:

1) If that is true then there should be several witnesses to the stop and the shooting- specifically, all those people in the traffic that was being blocked. That would be a good thing, but I'm surprised none of those witnesses have come forward yet.

2) If it is an exaggeration, say if there was in fact little or no traffic and Brown and Johnson were simply crossing the street, perhaps on a diagonal and taking more time than Wilson liked... well, then that is a picture-perfect example of the kind of thing I've been talking about.

This idea that very petty and minor "crimes" should be used to justify routinely stopping and arresting people, usually black and almost invariably poor, even when there is no specific, overt reason for the police to interfere,* is a bad idea on multiple levels.

It encourages the police to think of people in the target area as "potential criminals." It makes walking up to police seem more dangerous, and volunteering information to them more frightening. It causes the people in that area to view the police as something little different from a roving band of muggers who randomly attack people for no obvious reason- because seriously, how else are you going to view someone who can grab you and throw you in jail for a night for "crossing the street in a suspicious manner?" And once the people view police as a roving band of muggers who just happen to enjoy legal impunity... well. Even making a generous assumption, even if the police only use force when threatened, they've gone far out of their way to walk into situations where they'll be threatened.

The theory may be that of 'broken windows' policing or whatever, but it has the potential to go badly wrong.
________________

*You may reasonably point out that IF Johnson and Brown had just committed a robbery, there was in fact reason to stop them, and they MIGHT have been behaving in a suspicious manner. On the other hand, I have no idea what "crossing a street in a suspicious manner" means. And it strikes me as a bad general policy to encourage police to arrest people for "crossing a street in a suspicious manner" Unless, of course, they are specifically responding to a crime and looking for people fleeing the scene. Which Wilson was not doing, since he had no idea there had just been a robbery... assuming the robbery even occurred, and at this point I'm not sure what evidence we have for that other than the Ferguson police's word, and I'm suspicious enough of them to imagine them trying to gin up a fake robbery to make things look less bad.

[Patroklos]

Did another report come out that I missed saying he was shot in the back at any distance and there was no action on the part of Brown? Are you guys just making this up?

[TimothyC]

Did another report come out that I missed saying he was shot in the back at any distance and there was no action on the part of Brown? Are you guys just making this up?

There were public statements to that effect early on. I'm waiting on the forensic reports before I take an opinion on this case. That said, the local police have been screwing up the PR with their actions toward the media.

[Borgholio]

I don't recall him being shot in the back. The big talking point is how he was supposedly shot multiple times from ~30 feet away after he had already been shot once and was in the process of surrendering with his hands in the air.

At least, that's the allegation.

[Simon_Jester]

Did another report come out that I missed saying he was shot in the back at any distance and there was no action on the part of Brown? Are you guys just making this up?

I got confused between the facts of this case and of another recent case, I am in error. My apologies.

[Patroklos]

I don't recall him being shot in the back. The big talking point is how he was supposedly shot multiple times from ~30 feet away after he had already been shot once and was in the process of surrendering with his hands in the air.

At least, that's the allegation.

No it's not and we have been over this multiple times. Johnson says that the officer ran after and shot Brown again at close range and the police have said only that Brown was shot 35 feet from the car, not shot from 35 feet away.

The police have left open the possibility that he was shot from 35 feet away (but they did NOT say this), Johnson has not.

[TimothyC]

I don't recall him being shot in the back. The big talking point is how he was supposedly shot multiple times from ~30 feet away after he had already been shot once and was in the process of surrendering with his hands in the air.

At least, that's the allegation.

I sit corrected then, as I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the case.

[Gaidin]

I sit corrected then, as I haven't been paying a lot of attention to the case.

That's actually the best idea there as the case at the moment is a whole crapload of he said/she said from both the family and the police department until the FBI release something something as the investigative force that came in. I honestly ignored the shooting once two stories were thrown out with such wide variance at the beginning, and the police are still doing their version of 'she said' as what they released is information they admit the officer that shot him didn't know. Though I find the reaction of the family amusing as they're crying foul when I think there was a FOIA request for it. I can sort of picture an innocent smile as they redact the proper information and hand it over. They're both just throwing rocks, you're not going to get a lot that's useful until the body that's actually investigating is done and thinks they've figured out what's actually happened.