Ukraine War Thread

[K. A. Pital]

ARD and ZDF are not newspapers and I'll have you know that newspapers are widely read in Germany.

By old geezers?

Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that the opposition in the Ukraine is the seperatist movement? Because I find very little in the way of personal continuity there.

But that is what the Ukraine government said. When they banned the communist party, for example.

And you might think they are the same, but how does Putin not come off vastly worse here? He is meddling in other states. The seperatism is clearly illegal under international law. There was no oppression being planned or measures being taken to oppress the minority. And it is largely supported by Russia.

Separatism being illegal under 'international law' is no concern of mine. If the world lived according to law alone, Ireland and a bunch of other states (including Ukraine itself) would not exist.

After the fighting is over, the fuss will be over. Yes. What is so enraging about that?

Well for starters, I did not bring up Georgia for nothing. The 'pro-Western leader' Saakashvili, while he was in charge, was not scrutinized. Despite getting 97% votes. Despite torture in prisons, corruption, violence against protesters. You seem to be of the opinion that changing the corrupt talking head to a 'pro-Western' talking head somehow fixes the problems. It does not - that is my point.

Yeah, and there is no way this will not change, because after all the EU has no programs designed to combat that, right? It is not like there is a huge track record of people getting better like Poland, the baltics, Czech Republic, Croatia, Slovenia....nope, you just pick the poorest and youngest member of the EU to proclaim the whole thing as a failure. Which is really dishonest.

Poland received a lot of money to make it work. Attempts to repeat this weren't nearly as successful (besides, we are talking about EU association only; not full membership). Czech and Slovak nations - even when united into Czechoslovakia - were never poor neither terribly corrupt, and they managed to keep most of their industry. Who is going to keep the Ukrainian industry, which is borderline uncompetitive even in the Russia-CIS market? With entire cities built around plants that work to sell stuff to the CIS?

I have no idea how you got around to 'they are trying to be a better nation' by shelling people who want to separate. Maybe just, uh... let them go? I mean, if these people consciously want to separate, if they demonstrated support for separatists (which even the Ukraine central government said themselves), would it not be wise to just let them go?

I don't remember a 'better nation' that became better through war. Post-Yugoslav nations have a horrible track record: corruption endemic, poverty endemic, torture, organ trade, organized crime, human trafficking - you name it.

[Thanas]

ARD and ZDF are not newspapers and I'll have you know that newspapers are widely read in Germany.

By old geezers?

That is a) untrue if you ever travelled in a german train and b) SZ has new highs in readers over the past five years, mostly because they cater to the young university crowd. I for example get a subscription at half the usual price.

Also, still ignoring the fact that the TV news covers it extensively as well.

But that is what the Ukraine government said. When they banned the communist party, for example.

They said what? That yanukovich government is present in the communist party? Or that the rebels are made up of yanukovich party loyalists? because that is what is needed for political continuity between the overthrown government and the rebels. To my knowledge, neither yanukovich or any ministers are associated with the rebels. Their leadership seems to be either plants from Russia or local leaders, not politicians that were ousted in Kiev.

Separatism being illegal under 'international law' is no concern of mine. If the world lived according to law alone, Ireland and a bunch of other states (including Ukraine itself) would not exist.

Actually they would as they were under real oppression. And it may not be a concern of yours but that does not matter, as we are talking about rights of secession here. If you are machinegunned like the Irish were or starved to death like the Ukrainians were (and on top of that had several decades of political oppression) then you can secede. But none of that was present in the east.

Well for starters, I did not bring up Georgia for nothing. The 'pro-Western leader' Saakashvili, while he was in charge, was not scrutinized. Despite getting 97% votes. Despite torture in prisons, corruption, violence against protesters. You seem to be of the opinion that changing the corrupt talking head to a 'pro-Western' talking head somehow fixes the problems. It does not - that is my point.

Actually, I remember quite a lot of people in the german media writing bad things about the tie muncher.

Your point is taken, but there are enough positive examples of EU influence that there is no reason to expect that the Ukraine will be the next Georgia.

Poland received a lot of money to make it work. Attempts to repeat this weren't nearly as successful (besides, we are talking about EU association only; not full membership). Czech and Slovak nations - even when united into Czechoslovakia - were never poor neither terribly corrupt, and they managed to keep most of their industry. Who is going to keep the Ukrainian industry, which is borderline uncompetitive even in the Russia-CIS market? With entire cities built around plants that work to sell stuff to the CIS?

What is preferable - get development money to help save what is able to be saved or just let the industry die in ten years when they are unable to refinance anyway? You think they can just keep going? The majority of people understand that European money is their best chance.

I have no idea how you got around to 'they are trying to be a better nation' by shelling people who want to separate. Maybe just, uh... let them go? I mean, if these people consciously want to separate, if they demonstrated support for separatists (which even the Ukraine central government said themselves), would it not be wise to just let them go?

They did not demonstrate that at all as there was no fair and independent referendum. Nor was there a fair election there because armed seperatist thugs prevented it. There is simply no way to know who feels what there though I'll note everybody interviewed by German news there (and there are german news crews in Lughansk and Donezk) said they did not care that much who rules but fear more for their safety from both army thugs and seperatist thugs.

I don't remember a 'better nation' that became better through war. Post-Yugoslav nations have a horrible track record: corruption endemic, poverty endemic, torture, organ trade, organized crime, human trafficking - you name it.

And yet things are getting better there as well. Croatia is a EU member. Serbia most likely will be the next one. Things are getting better and a lot of that is due to the EU keeping the peace and providing monetary assistance.

[mr friendly guy]

What is preferable - get development money to help save what is able to be saved or just let the industry die in ten years when they are unable to refinance anyway? You think they can just keep going? The majority of people understand that European money is their best chance.

Can someone clarify this, but I thought Ukraine turned to Russia after Putin offered them more money than the EU. I am fully aware that the EU has more money than Russia, but Russia values Ukraine in its sphere of influence more than the EU does so they were willing to put more on the table.

If I remembered it correctly, then I am not sure what difference Russian money makes to EU money.

[Vympel]

Can someone clarify this, but I thought Ukraine turned to Russia after Putin offered them more money than the EU. I am fully aware that the EU has more money than Russia, but Russia values Ukraine in its sphere of influence more than the EU does so they were willing to put more on the table.

If I remembered it correctly, then I am not sure what difference Russian money makes to EU money.

The Russians did indeed offer more money. What the EU offered is less money and various crippling austerity measures that will be massively unpopular when implemented, like an end to gas subsidies.

Ukraine is now claiming they intercepted and destroyed the russian military convoy that crossed into their territory during the night, but that Russia continues to arm the rebels. The situation gets more strange each hour.

Ukraine telling realy dumb lies that they throw out on a daily basis, are dutifully repeated by the Western press, are never proven, and then forgotten is hardly "strange". Its the norm.

Its a great illustration however that if a corrupt shithole filled with liars is designated as "good guys" by the West, they automatically get credibility where they deserve none.

[K. A. Pital]

That is a) untrue if you ever travelled in a german train and b) SZ has new highs in readers over the past five years, mostly because they cater to the young university crowd. I for example get a subscription at half the usual price. Also, still ignoring the fact that the TV news covers it extensively as well.

I know very well that Hodorkovsky and other oligarch scum is a constant news focus; that Berezovsky and other scum found shelter in the European countries. Because that cannot be missed even if you barely watch TV. What I know for sure is that only a fraction of what happens to people with less money gets reported.

They said what? That yanukovich government is present in the communist party?

No. The government disbanded the communist party because they spoke out against continuing the civil war. Now tell me, is that 'democratic'? Because you seem to be stretching the very definition of democracy up to banning and forcibly disbanding parliamentary parties. Shouldn't come as a surprise to me, but still.

Actually they would as they were under real oppression.

And who would determine the reality of oppression? The British seemed to be awfully sure at the time that Ireland was under no oppression. In fact they still are generally thinking that the Empire wasn't oppressive. It built them ungrateful savages railroads! Union Hack Jack!

If you are machinegunned like the Irish were or starved to death like the Ukrainians were (and on top of that had several decades of political oppression) then you can secede. But none of that was present in the east.

Ukrainians weren't 'starved to death' in 1991 - they were one of the most industrially developed and well-off parts of the USSR. Whereas the East of Ukraine was pretty much sucked out dry like Russian regions are; the enterprises were owned by oligarchs who registered HQs in Kiev, meaning all taxes went to Kiev, and a sizeable fraction of the money was looted and shipped off to offshore accounts. But of course none of that seems to be a concern in Thanas-world, where events 50-100 years prior are good grounds for secession (like with Ireland or Ukraine), but actual severe hardships inflicted by the oligarch regime now aren't.

Your point is taken, but there are enough positive examples of EU influence that there is no reason to expect that the Ukraine will be the next Georgia.

We will most certainly live to see the end result, so here's my judgement: nothing good shall come out of it. At best, another Bulgaria. At worst, another Bosnia or Georgia.

What is preferable - get development money to help save what is able to be saved or just let the industry die in ten years when they are unable to refinance anyway? You think they can just keep going? The majority of people understand that European money is their best chance.

Majority of people think that industry somehow spawns up by itself and magic monies fall from the skies. In other words: most people are dumb. Easterners are also dumb because they hoped Russia will quickly take them and money will flow to them like to Crimea (wrong call!).

They did not demonstrate that at all as there was no fair and independent referendum. Nor was there a fair election there because armed seperatist thugs prevented it.

Actually, it was very much acknowledged at the very top when Turchinov and others said that the population is actively aiding the separatists. Population is the water, rebels are the fish. There is no way this would've went to a real civil war like now, if the population was not passively, and sometimes rather actively, aiding the rebel cause.

And yet things are getting better there as well. Croatia is a EU member. Serbia most likely will be the next one. Things are getting better and a lot of that is due to the EU keeping the peace and providing monetary assistance.

It was in shambles for a decade and it still is a hellish place. If that's the result Ukraine can hope to achieve, I really pity them. Then again, I never held most of the post-Soviet failed states in high esteem.

[Thanas]

Its a great illustration however that if a corrupt shithole filled with liars is designated as "good guys" by the West, they automatically get credibility where they deserve none.

You mean like when they claimed Russia was firing at their troops? (confirmed with satellite imagery)
You mean like when they claimed Russia was arming the rebels? (confirmed)
You mean like the recent convoy (also confirmed by NATO)?

I know very well that Hodorkovsky and other oligarch scum is a constant news focus; that Berezovsky and other scum found shelter in the European countries. Because that cannot be missed even if you barely watch TV. What I know for sure is that only a fraction of what happens to people with less money gets reported.

Sure, because everything about every other nation must be reported otherwise it is biased reporting. Give me a break, you know full well what German media thinks of oligarchs and the crumbling state that is Russia.

By your constant refusal to address the TV and newspaper reports I think you have conceded that the western media does indeed accurately report on what is going on in the east. If I am mistaken in this please answer with actual facts instead of "lol nobody reads newspapers, nevermind they are TV stations"

No. The government disbanded the communist party because they spoke out against continuing the civil war. Now tell me, is that 'democratic'?

It isn't.

And who would determine the reality of oppression? The British seemed to be awfully sure at the time that Ireland was under no oppression. In fact they still are generally thinking that the Empire wasn't oppressive. It built them ungrateful savages railroads! Union Hack Jack!

Statements of the oppressors are not supposed to be taken as fact automatically. You know this, I know this, so why do you bring it up as if that would somehow serve your point?

Ukrainians weren't 'starved to death' in 1991 - they were one of the most industrially developed and well-off parts of the USSR. Whereas the East of Ukraine was pretty much sucked out dry like Russian regions are; the enterprises were owned by oligarchs who registered HQs in Kiev, meaning all taxes went to Kiev, and a sizeable fraction of the money was looted and shipped off to offshore accounts. But of course none of that seems to be a concern in Thanas-world, where events 50-100 years prior are good grounds for secession (like with Ireland or Ukraine), but actual severe hardships inflicted by the oligarch regime now aren't.

You mean that in less than a month taking power, the oligarchs in Kiew managed to suck the east dry?

Or do you mean that this is a general revolt against Oligarch rule in general? That is even more hilarious. Your pathetic desire to paint the rebels as good guys is getting too desperate. They are what they are - people riled up by Putin, people who shot down an airliner and then stole from the corpses, people who only serve the purpose of weakening the Ukraine. Whatever idealism remains there was lost when the leadership was replaced by Moscow with former GRU officers and other barbarians.

Oh, and surely Russia will be less ruled by the oligarchs. That must be why they are revolting. They want to get to Russia, that state completely devoid of oligarchic rule. Because all oligarchs are in the evil western part of the Ukraine and secession will magically remove their property rights.

This has got to be the most ridiculous argument I have heard.

It is even funnier because apparently all the oligarchs are in the west now. Yeah, sure.

Majority of people think that industry somehow spawns up by itself and magic monies fall from the skies. In other words: most people are dumb. Easterners are also dumb because they hoped Russia will quickly take them and money will flow to them like to Crimea (wrong call!).

Ah, so when the eastern parts joined the EU they were dumb because the EU will not work. Gotcha. Now back to reality....

Actually, it was very much acknowledged at the very top when Turchinov and others said that the population is actively aiding the separatists. Population is the water, rebels are the fish. There is no way this would've went to a real civil war like now, if the population was not passively, and sometimes rather actively, aiding the rebel cause.

Doubtful. It is very easy to claim passive aid when it requires nothing. That is like me saying Germany passively supports me when I walk to work. It is also hard to see a lot of active support. We certainly do not hear a lot of stories of the local populace taking up arms en masse that you would expect from true active participation.

It was in shambles for a decade and it still is a hellish place. If that's the result Ukraine can hope to achieve, I really pity them. Then again, I never held most of the post-Soviet failed states in high esteem.

What is your preferred alternative? Go on as before? And what then when the economy collapses even more as it becomes more and more uncompetitive with each day?

Do the new EU members have ways to go? Yes. Are they getting there? Yes. Progress in that case is all that counts.

[K. A. Pital]

By your constant refusal to address the TV and newspaper reports I think you have conceded that the western media does indeed accurately report on what is going on in the east. If I am mistaken in this please answer with actual facts instead of "lol nobody reads newspapers, nevermind they are TV stations"

Does it? I mean, the reports on Ukrainian army fighting 'separatists terrorists' despite clear evidence that the Ukrainian Army was using MRLS against cities (something Qaddafi was killed for) I remember very well.

It isn't.

So did Russia forcibly disband a party that had 13,18% of the popular vote and was present in the Parliament? Remind me.

Statements of the oppressors are not supposed to be taken as fact automatically. You know this, I know this, so why do you bring it up as if that would somehow serve your point?

Because at that time there was no way to determine 'reality of oppression' and the statements of the rebels would be just as biased as they are in current day and age.

You mean that in less than a month taking power, the oligarchs in Kiew managed to suck the east dry?

No, I mean that Ukrainian oligarchs have been sucking it dry for decades of independence. And that it happened so that pro-Russian organizations were violently suppressed under Yanukovich, too.

Or do you mean that this is a general revolt against Oligarch rule in general? That is even more hilarious.

Not more hilarious than protesting against oligarchs, then electing an oligarch to directly run the country and appointing oligarchs to directly rule regions. What? Is that too much for you to stomach? People in the East are idiots. I already said why. They are, indeed, riled up by Putin and they were, many of them, expecting swift action from Russia and money, like in Crimea. And of course the idealists (like Strelkov) were removed by now as it seems the Moscow oligarchs wish to find some other solution to the problem than intervention and possibly a proxy war.

Your pathetic desire to paint the rebels as good guys is getting too desperate.

Um... so poor and uncultured people are bad people, because they steal from the dead. I mean, it is not like Ukraine is a poor nation driven to the brink of failure by 20 years of mismanagement, and therefore such events are perfectly expected. Oligarchs are good people. Now where were we? When oligarchs order the army to use MRLS against poor misguided people, it is good people, right?

Oh, and surely Russia will be less ruled by the oligarchs.

They do not know that Russia is ruled by the oligarchs, as the Russian media is not depicting it as such. The Russian media talks about how much money Crimea will get. About how Russia is ready to protect ethnic Russians abroad.

Because all oligarchs are in the evil western part of the Ukraine and secession will magically remove their property rights.

Secession will remove their property rights. Russia apparently allowed people in Crimea to just tell Ukrainian oligarchs to fuck off and pay no credits. That is a very strong motivation for people who are poor. Especially if they are, like I said, not very smart.

It is even funnier because apparently all the oligarchs are in the west now. Yeah, sure.

Well, all of them are in the West now - the Eastern oligarchs are either done or in the process of losing their assets.

Ah, so when the eastern parts joined the EU they were dumb because the EU will not work. Gotcha. Now back to reality....

Which eastern parts?

It is also hard to see a lot of active support. We certainly do not hear a lot of stories of the local populace taking up arms en masse that you would expect from true active participation.

Because it is not an army of 10 000 people led by some Russian 'advisors', clearly. The 10 000 are all from Russia!

What is your preferred alternative? Go on as before? And what then when the economy collapses even more as it becomes more and more uncompetitive with each day? Do the new EU members have ways to go? Yes. Are they getting there? Yes. Progress in that case is all that counts.

Um... I am not sure the economy of neighboring Belarus is 'collapsing even more'. People aren't malnourished or killing each other in civil war; the healthcare quality is held as good by international organizations. Incomes are high, by post-Soviet standards. Investment from Russia and China is steady, Europe invests a bit too. There is a thriving IT industry in Minsk due to a special tax regime for IT companies. It is a trade hub for European-Russian goods exchange. That with most of the territory damaged by the Chernobyl accident.

Now, this is a valid comparison because both nations are similar, started in similar conditions, both have no oil (only transit routes from RU to EU). Also both are Orthodox and Slavic.

Many new EU members and/or associates lost a huge part of their population after ascending into the union. I cannot blame the people, but truly these nations must have been absolute hell if people ran away from them so quickly and in such massive numbers.

[Thanas]

By your constant refusal to address the TV and newspaper reports I think you have conceded that the western media does indeed accurately report on what is going on in the east. If I am mistaken in this please answer with actual facts instead of "lol nobody reads newspapers, nevermind they are TV stations"

Does it? I mean, the reports on Ukrainian army fighting 'separatists terrorists' despite clear evidence that the Ukrainian Army was using MRLS against cities (something Qaddafi was killed for) I remember very well.

Do you also remember how that was said in the news on German TV and written about in the newspapers? You might like to paint them as some sort of propaganda arm but they are not. FFS they got guys in Lughansk and Donezk at risk of getting killed.

So did Russia forcibly disband a party that had 13,18% of the popular vote and was present in the Parliament? Remind me.

Probably not. So what?

Because at that time there was no way to determine 'reality of oppression' and the statements of the rebels would be just as biased as they are in current day and age.

Actually, there was a great way to determine oppression. All the Irish expats for one, all the international observers etc. Besides, the British policy was widely debated in Britain herself.

No, I mean that Ukrainian oligarchs have been sucking it dry for decades of independence. And that it happened so that pro-Russian organizations were violently suppressed under Yanukovich, too.

Aah yes, suddenly this has all been decades in the making.

Not more hilarious than protesting against oligarchs, then electing an oligarch to directly run the country and appointing oligarchs to directly rule regions.

Meh. They voted for them after all, which is more of a choice than those in the east got.

What? Is that too much for you to stomach? People in the East are idiots. I already said why. They are, indeed, riled up by Putin and they were, many of them, expecting swift action from Russia and money, like in Crimea. And of course the idealists (like Strelkov) were removed by now as it seems the Moscow oligarchs wish to find some other solution to the problem than intervention and possibly a proxy war.

I'd say they were more removed so that they could be paraded for PR reasons or inserted again when Putin wants to rile up the east again. It is easy to see a pattern here. I don't doubt that Putin wants to keep all his options open.

Um... so poor and uncultured people are bad people, because they steal from the dead. I mean, it is not like Ukraine is a poor nation driven to the brink of failure by 20 years of mismanagement, and therefore such events are perfectly expected. Oligarchs are good people. Now where were we? When oligarchs order the army to use MRLS against poor misguided people, it is good people, right?

No. And nothing excuses stealing from people you murdered.

They do not know that Russia is ruled by the oligarchs, as the Russian media is not depicting it as such. The Russian media talks about how much money Crimea will get. About how Russia is ready to protect ethnic Russians abroad.

Of course. Still no justification for the human rights abuses, especially if it is about money.

Secession will remove their property rights. Russia apparently allowed people in Crimea to just tell Ukrainian oligarchs to fuck off and pay no credits. That is a very strong motivation for people who are poor. Especially if they are, like I said, not very smart.

Agreed.

Which eastern parts?

Poland, the Baltics, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovenia. All still have problems but their growth is real.

Because it is not an army of 10 000 people led by some Russian 'advisors', clearly. The 10 000 are all from Russia!

10.000 people is not a mass uprising. That are less than 1% of the populace in Donetzk alone. And I have no doubt that at least several hundred are volunteers from Russia.

Um... I am not sure the economy of neighboring Belarus is 'collapsing even more'. People aren't malnourished or killing each other in civil war; the healthcare quality is held as good by international organizations. Incomes are high, by post-Soviet standards. Investment from Russia and China is steady, Europe invests a bit too. There is a thriving IT industry in Minsk due to a special tax regime for IT companies. It is a trade hub for European-Russian goods exchange. That with most of the territory damaged by the Chernobyl accident.

Now, this is a valid comparison because both nations are similar, started in similar conditions, both have no oil (only transit routes from RU to EU). Also both are Orthodox and Slavic.

Many new EU members and/or associates lost a huge part of their population after ascending into the union. I cannot blame the people, but truly these nations must have been absolute hell if people ran away from them so quickly and in such massive numbers.

Belarus needed an economic rescue package from the IMF to prevent a collapse in 2011. Their main export are oil products (34%), so they are highly dependent on Oil refinement. They also have oil fields (over fifty of them) in the Pripyat region, which cover a third of their oil needs. It also has a highly unproductive agrarian sector, where the 80% of collective farms are producing less than the private ones, which generate about 40% of the country needs. The industry suffers from overproduction.

It is better than Ukraine, but let's not pretend this model is in any way successful compared to, say, Poland, or even applicable to the Ukraine.

[Thanas]

Link in German, will update when English source is found

Rough translation:

Monatelang hatte Russland bestritten, die Separatisten in der Ostukraine zu unterstützen, auf dem eigenen Gebiet Trainingscamps eingerichtet zu haben, um Kämpfer zu schulen. Nun hat einer der Separatistenführer, der selbsternannte Ministerpräsident der Volksrepublik Donezk, Zakharchenko, eingeräumt, dass diese Unterstützung buchstäblich rollt: "150 Militärfahrzeuge, darunter etwa 30 Panzer, der Rest Truppentransporter und Schützenpanzer, 1200 Mann, die in den vergangenen vier Monaten auf dem Territorium der Russischen Föderation geschult wurden. Alle werden jetzt, im alles entscheidenden Moment, reingebracht."

For months Russia has denied supporting the seperatists in the eastern ukraine and having built camps on its own territory to train fighters. Now one of the seperatist leaders, the self-appointed minister president of the People's Republic of Donezk, Zakharchenko, acknowledged that this support is literally rolling: "150 military vehicles, including 30 Tanks, the remainder APCs and IFVs, 1200 soldiers, who in the last four months had been training on the territory of the Rusisan Federation. All will now, in the decisive moment, be brought in"

Hard to tell if this is just propaganda like Hitlers "Any moment the counterattack will start now" or whether that is indeed a confirmation of what Nato has been saying all along.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit:

Telegraph has the story, with video of the rebel speach

Pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine are being bolstered by 1,200 troops who “trained for four months in Russia”, according to the separatists' leader.

A video recording of Alexander Zakharchenko speaking to delegates appears to confirm reports of Moscow's military support to the rebels, who have been fighting Ukrainian government troops since April.

Ukraine’s government claimed on Friday to have destroyed part of a column of Russian military vehicles that crossed its border, with Nato accusing Moscow of launching an “incursion”.

David Cameron, the Prime Minister, expressed his “grave concern” over reports of the breach, and Washington last night called for Moscow to halt its "extremely dangerous and provocative" actions.

In his speech, reportedly made on Friday at a “people’s council” and posted on a rebel YouTube channel, Mr Zakharchenko said, “the following reserves have been gathered: 150 armoured vehicles, of which about 30 are tanks and the rest are BMPs and BTRs [infantry fighting vehicles and armoured personnel carriers], 1,200 military personnel, who are there now, who underwent training for four months on the territory of the Russian Federation. They were brought into action at the most crucial moment.”



It was unclear whether Mr Zakharchenko, who is prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, meant that the armoured vehicles also came from Russia. The troops were apparently approaching a “corridor” established by the rebels between Russia and Ukraine and would take part in battles to keep it open.

Pro-Russian rebels have been fighting Ukrainian government troops in eastern Ukraine since April, in the wake of Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea peninsula.

Nato countries and Ukraine have accused Russia of sending tanks, missile launchers and other equipment across the two countries shared border in support of the rebels, who have also seized weapons from Ukrainian forces in battle.

The United States and European states believe the rebels shot down a Malaysia Airlines passenger jet that crashed in eastern Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 passengers and crew on board. They suggest the separatists shot down the aircraft by mistake, possibly using a surface-to-air Buk missile launcher supplied by Russia, or manned by Russian personnel. The rebels and Moscow deny that.

On Thursday evening, correspondents from the Telegraph and the Guardian witnessed at least 23 armoured vehicles and military trucks crossing from Russia into Ukraine close to the Donetsk checkpoint, north of Rostov-on-Don.

On Friday, Russia’s ministry of defence described the report of the crossing and Ukraine’s claim that it destroyed part of a Russian column on its territory as “fantasies”.

However, it is clear that, at the least, many volunteer fighters from Russia have been allowed to cross into Ukraine across a rebel-held section of the border. Mr Zakharchenko did not clarify in his speech whether the 1,200 he referred to were Russian servicemen, volunteer fighters from Russia, or militiamen from eastern Ukraine who had travelled to Russia for training.

Attention focused on the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days because Russia sent a humanitarian aid convoy – destined for civilians in eastern Ukraine - to the area. The 270 trucks full of cargo, which includes food, water, medicines, bedding and generators, parked about 20 miles short of the Donetsk crossing point on Thursday.

Moscow and Kiev are haggling over how the aid will be delivered to civilians in rebel-held areas, where shelling has destroyed homes, businesses and infrastructure.

EDIT: This might also explain what the "Russian" convoy Ukraine allegedly destroyed really was. It might have been a part of those claimed reinforcements.

[K. A. Pital]

Do you also remember how that was said in the news on German TV and written about in the newspapers? You might like to paint them as some sort of propaganda arm but they are not. FFS they got guys in Lughansk and Donezk at risk of getting killed.

In the recent news, yes. When it only started, like in Slaviansk, the reports looked more like denial.

Probably not. So what?

So, when Fingolfin and I noted how Ukraine's actions were inconsistent with democracy, you got all riled up. Why? Their actions after the Maidan were aimed very clearly at mass disenfranchisement and shutting up inconvenient opinions (like e.g. that of the communists).

Actually, there was a great way to determine oppression. All the Irish expats for one, all the international observers etc. Besides, the British policy was widely debated in Britain herself.

Hmm. So let's look at Ukraine. There was a debate about how to proceed with the East. It ended with communists being forcibly disbanded. There are hundreds of thousands of refugees; shelled cities are husks of their former selves. That is not bad enough? Note that the 'separatists' initially wanted (either being ordered from Moscow or sincerely so) to 'federalize' Ukraine. The political speech was also directed to that end. The biggest threat of federalization was a possibly peaceful splitting of Ukraine later on (like Czechoslovakia). But after that proved to be non-negotiable, separatism was a lot easier to incite.

Aah yes, suddenly this has all been decades in the making.

Very much so. You disagree with the fact that Ukraine's factories were paying to make Kiev look good? In the very same fashion as Moscow's cool look is a function of looting money from the regions, like a leech. And precisely why oligarchic Russia is a very fragile construct.

Meh. They voted for them after all, which is more of a choice than those in the east got.

Voting in the east did not happen at all. They did not even have a candidate who could stand a chance in these conditions. And what good is voting when undesireable parties are simply disbanded by force, do tell.

I'd say they were more removed so that they could be paraded for PR reasons or inserted again when Putin wants to rile up the east again. It is easy to see a pattern here. I don't doubt that Putin wants to keep all his options open.

Putin isn't the only person playing this game. Some people, I heard, already suffered in Moscow as Strelkov's removal led to even more purges of the 'hawks' in Russia (which is in line with what I said before).

No. And nothing excuses stealing from people you murdered.

Are you seriously saying that dirt-poor rebels from the Somalia of Europe = bad because they steal from the dead, but people who order MRLS to be used against towns have an excuse? I just want to understand. Even the very outlandish versions of the MH17 downing acknowledge that it was in all likelihood a mistake. Ordering to fire MRLS on cities is not a mistake. It is a conscious order, and consequences cannot be ignored. You can't just accidentally launch an SRBM or a hail of MRLS projectiles. That is no accident, and in my view that is inexcusable.

Still no justification for the human rights abuses, especially if it is about money.

Talk to me when you put that Kosovo thug who runs an organized crime ring involved in human trafficking and murders behind bars. You actually occupied that territory don't you? So there's no excuse.

Poland, the Baltics, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovenia. All still have problems but their growth is real.

Latvia as an example. I mean... yeah. 25 years and barely above where they were in 1990. That's some real success there!

10.000 people is not a mass uprising. That are less than 1% of the populace in Donetzk alone. And I have no doubt that at least several hundred are volunteers from Russia.

10 000 armed men is not a mass uprising? Then I guess the Easter Rising in Ireland, 1916, means nothing, what with them having less than half the number at the time.

Belarus needed an economic rescue package from the IMF to prevent a collapse in 2011. Their main export are oil products (34%), so they are highly dependent on Oil refinement. They also have oil fields (over fifty of them) in the Pripyat region, which cover a third of their oil needs. It also has a highly unproductive agrarian sector, where the 80% of collective farms are producing less than the private ones, which generate about 40% of the country needs. The industry suffers from overproduction.

It is better than Ukraine, but let's not pretend this model is in any way successful compared to, say, Poland, or even applicable to the Ukraine.

I am sorry, but you are mistaken. Belarus did not receive an IMF bailout in 2011 (though it received one in 2009, during the height of the crisis, but more about it later). Also Belarus has a higher HDI than Romania and Bulgaria. Which means that this model (a) is successful (b) is applicable to the Ukraine - what with very similar background, similar ethnic and confessional structure, similar structural issues. Latvia and Hungary also received IMF assistance, but unlike Belarus they were parts of a larger FT zone, benefitted from lack of trade barriers and yet still needed massive bailouts. Ukraine also received IMF bailouts - multiple times.

Belarus exported its oil products to the Netherlands (which means the quality is high); there was nothing stopping Ukraine from doing the same (building refineries and benefitting from trade), but it did not, and does not. The export structure of Belarus is 39 percent for the EU countries, 34.8 percent for Russia, 13.3 percent for other CIS countries, 6.5 percent for African and Asian countries.

Belarus has one-fourth of Ukraine's population, and yet its economy exports almost the same amount of goods, for hard cash. Belarus exports ~$50 billion, Ukraine ~$70 billion. With an enormous population disparity and very similar starting conditions.

[Vympel]

You mean like when they claimed Russia was firing at their troops? (confirmed with satellite imagery)

Confirmation my ass. How does satellite imagery confirm the origin and trajectory of shells? Is it possible? Sure. Is it "confirmed"? No.

You mean like when they claimed Russia was arming the rebels? (confirmed)

When was that confirmed? By whom? Its likely true, but that's totally besides the point.

You mean like the recent convoy (also confirmed by NATO)?

ROFLMAO! You appeal to NATO as if they're an objective third party, and not in the bag for Kiev! The same lying fucks who tried to buttress Kiev's "T-64s from Russia" claim with a stunningly dishonest attempt to make a stock standard, common-as-fucking-dirt T-64BV as a "Russian" variant and a extremely-rare-less-than-40-of-them-in-existence T-64BM Bulat as a "Ukrainian" variant?

What the fuck did NATO "confirm" in that case? They offered no evidence as to this 'convoy' whatsoever, but because NATO said it, you believe it?

And I'm sure you'll continue to believe it, even though I just explained to you how provably dishonest they are.

What's sad about this is that you're grasping for reasons to pretend Kiev has credibility - one of the most corrupt countries on Earth - and have had no regard whatsoever to the literal torrent of lies that emanates from them on a regular basis. You'd think that their "oh the Russian air force bombed Donetsk to make us look bad" claims would be enough to give you pause, but apparently not.

[Welf]

Poland, the Baltics, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovenia. All still have problems but their growth is real.

Latvia as an example. I mean... yeah. 25 years and barely above where they were in 1990. That's some real success there!

How exactly is a massive contraction of the economy a decade before Latvia joined the EU a prove the model of the EU doesn't work?

Also I would like to point out that a simple comparison based on gross dollar is pretty useless. The USSR didn't let the ruble convert freely against the dollar. More meaningful is for example the GDP per capita, PPP (current international $); for Latvia it was in 1990 was 7.813 USD, and in 2012 it increased to 21.381 USD. Source: Worldbank.

[K. A. Pital]

How exactly is there something 'better' if the graph is exactly same as for the former USSR in entirety?

[Irbis]

Poland, the Baltics, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovenia. All still have problems but their growth is real.

Our "growth" is based on one half being EU's China (cheap work force than can work for complete peanuts compared to old EU, but having advantage of being in customs union) and one half based on free access to western cash and technologies. Had you given same to Russia, I suspect their growth would be even larger, for one, Russia actually has some advanced industries. There were also EU payments that helped, but we won't see most effects from them for a while.

Anyway, the point is, gee, state with better market and tech access grows faster. Big surprise, sadly, more on the level of reinventing the wheel, not discovering some new truth.

Trying to do the same in Ukraine as in 10 states from 2004 won't work. Poland had big English and German literacy, allowing us to send 2 mln people to UK and Germany learning Western enterprises. Ukraine has none. We were willing to suffer through even dumbest neocon ideas to get into EU. Ukrainians are not. We caught final end of generous EU budgets (though still nothing like 80-90s). Ukrainians will not. In fact, Ukraine joinint will probably mean big crash in 10 2004 states as it becomes new EU China and we're left with nothing. You would be literally trying to mix oil with water trying to retread old solutions. If they will repeat anything, it will be Baltics and Slovenia massive crashes in GNP when the exact same issues surfaced.

10.000 people is not a mass uprising. That are less than 1% of the populace in Donetzk alone. And I have no doubt that at least several hundred are volunteers from Russia.

Congratulations, you just disappeared Greater Poland and Upper Silesian uprising against Imperial Germany from 1920, having some 20-30.000 people between them, and that only thanks to mass conscription and volunteers from Poland. Both were successful, as well, and recognized by international community after the fact.

It also has a highly unproductive agrarian sector, where the 80% of collective farms are producing less than the private ones, which generate about 40% of the country needs. The industry suffers from overproduction.

It is better than Ukraine, but let's not pretend this model is in any way successful compared to, say, Poland, or even applicable to the Ukraine.

*sigh*

Ok, a little economy lesson. You know what difference was between unproductive agrarian sector in Belarus and Poland in 1990?

None.

That's it, both were equally obsolete and producing crappy goods. Real change came only in 2004, when farmers started to gain payments for land owned, similar to EU ones. They spent that money on western more marketable plant and animal stock (though often worse in taste) that became accessible after joining, quickly improving quality.

They still suck at selling it, though, being largely exploited by western intermediaries and shop networks siphoning off all the profit. For example, "cheap" apples from Tesco or Lidl costing 2.5 zł give only maybe 1/3 to farmers, rest is pure profit at shop shelf. Biggest beneficiary of Polish increased food production was old EU. So, they didn't even did it out of good of their hearts.

Russia is trying to do the same, but without access to western money or engineered species the process goes much slower than it did in Poland. Still, they do a lot to change that with French and Dutch help. Think about it, if Poland could go from 20th world apple producer to this:



[and we were set to overtake China in 2015, sadly now it won't happen]

How much Russians can achieve? They have much better lands, and much more unexploited reserves. In fact, the embargo might be the final spur for them to start dwarfing EU production and become self sufficient.

How exactly is a massive contraction of the economy a decade before Latvia joined the EU a prove the model of the EU doesn't work?

Let me help by pointing out a lot of the contraction was caused by adopting the laws EU required. Let me also point out that Latvia joined EU in 2004, when their GDP was already on high rise. In fact, their GDP grown more in 1994-2004 decade than 2004-2014 one, IIRC. SB graph seems to confirm that.

The USSR didn't let the ruble convert freely against the dollar.

What?

Warsaw Pact currencies were called 'inconvertible' but it was for different reasons. They were freely convertible internally, very much so because buying western currencies was major source of import money for these states. You could do so either at lower official course, or go to 'cinkciarz' private offices (phonetically written 'change cash') who would exchange you money at market rate.

In fact, currency trade in Poland before 1989 was so big there were 2 shop networks only selling goods for western currencies (Pewex and Baltona), hell, Polish state emitted big runs of 'Polish Dollars' (example 10$ here) you could use in these shops or exchange 1:1 for US dollars at any border crossing. You could very much trace how many złoty dollar was worth on real market, even today people make dumb economic comparisons on that basis. And from what I heard, it was similar in other WP states.

More meaningful is for example the GDP per capita, PPP (current international $); for Latvia it was in 1990 was 7.813 USD, and in 2012 it increased to 21.381 USD. Source: Worldbank.

I took a look at that and I can't help but notice miraculous doubling of GNP in 2006-2007. Mind explaining what happened then? Because Eurostat doesn't seem to notice this wonder in their graph. Worldbank seems to be far more suspect source, either they type in random values or completely change measurement method and don't bother to even add a footnote they did so.

[Mange]

Poland, the Baltics, Croatia, Czech Republic, Slovenia. All still have problems but their growth is real.

Latvia as an example. I mean... yeah. 25 years and barely above where they were in 1990. That's some real success there!

How exactly is a massive contraction of the economy a decade before Latvia joined the EU a prove the model of the EU doesn't work?

Also I would like to point out that a simple comparison based on gross dollar is pretty useless. The USSR didn't let the ruble convert freely against the dollar. More meaningful is for example the GDP per capita, PPP (current international $); for Latvia it was in 1990 was 7.813 USD, and in 2012 it increased to 21.381 USD. Source: Worldbank.

Indeed. Also, while Soviet statistics were notoriously untrustworthy (greatly inflated), the Soviet Union did see a rise in conditions of living in the 80s. That the GDP of the Baltic countries shrank after the occupation ended and independence was regained is hardly surprising as the trade (both goods and raw materials) became disrupted.

[Welf]

How exactly is a massive contraction of the economy a decade before Latvia joined the EU a prove the model of the EU doesn't work?

Let me help by pointing out a lot of the contraction was caused by adopting the laws EU required. Let me also point out that Latvia joined EU in 2004, when their GDP was already on high rise. In fact, their GDP grown more in 1994-2004 decade than 2004-2014 one, IIRC. SB graph seems to confirm that.

Latvia signed a first agreement for association on 12.06.1995 when the crisis was already over and it started to grow again.

The USSR didn't let the ruble convert freely against the dollar.

What?

Warsaw Pact currencies were called 'inconvertible' but it was for different reasons. They were freely convertible internally, very much so because buying western currencies was major source of import money for these states. You could do so either at lower official course, or go to 'cinkciarz' private offices (phonetically written 'change cash') who would exchange you money at market rate.

In fact, currency trade in Poland before 1989 was so big there were 2 shop networks only selling goods for western currencies (Pewex and Baltona), hell, Polish state emitted big runs of 'Polish Dollars' (example 10$ here) you could use in these shops or exchange 1:1 for US dollars at any border crossing. You could very much trace how many złoty dollar was worth on real market, even today people make dumb economic comparisons on that basis. And from what I heard, it was similar in other WP states.

The USSR didn't let the ruble convert freely against the dollar. See wikipedia. From 1961 to 1990 the soviet ruble was fixed against the pound sterling. And the various currencies of the CMEA didn't let convert the currencies against each other. They sued a artificial transaction currency called "transfer ruble" to determine their various foreign debts and assets against each other. See link. (polish, because no english version).

More meaningful is for example the GDP per capita, PPP (current international $); for Latvia it was in 1990 was 7.813 USD, and in 2012 it increased to 21.381 USD. Source: Worldbank.

I took a look at that and I can't help but notice miraculous doubling of GNP in 2006-2007. Mind explaining what happened then? Because Eurostat doesn't seem to notice this wonder in their graph. Worldbank seems to be far more suspect source, either they type in random values or completely change measurement method and don't bother to even add a footnote they did so.

GNP and GDP are different measurements. And where you saw a "doubling" from 2006 to 2007? I don't even see a table with GNP.

[mr friendly guy]

The ramifications from the tit for tat sanctions is getting nastier

http://wtvr.com/2014/08/18/europe-pays- ... ssian-ban/

Europe pays farmers to destroy food hit by Russian ban
POSTED 10:24 AM, AUGUST 18, 2014, BY CNN WIRE

LONDON (CNNMoney) — Vladimir Putin continues to unsettle Europe’s economy.

The latest: Farmers in Europe will be paid to destroy or give away fruit and vegetables to stop prices from collapsing after Russia banned imports in retaliation for Western sanctions.

EU officials said Monday they were setting aside 125 million euros ($167 million) to compensate producers for not selling a range of perishable items, harvesting them before they ripen or leaving them to rot.

“This is a measure aimed at reducing the level of supply so the prices don’t drop to crisis levels,” said European Commission spokesman Roger Waite.

Russia hit back at the latest round of Western sanctions over Ukraine with its own year-long ban on imports of food from Europe, the U.S., Australia, Canada and Norway.

The emergency assistance will take effect immediately and run until November, under existing EU rules covering support for farmers’ incomes in times of crisis.

The products include apples, pears, tomatoes and cucumbers, and are all in full season. Farmers have few options to store them or find alternative markets, and prices for some products have already fallen by more than 50%.

EU exports of fruit and vegetables to Russia were worth about $2.7 billion last year. Countries hardest hit by the Russian ban include Poland, Spain, and Lithuania.

EU officials hope much of the withdrawn produce to be given away for free — to food banks, prisons, schools or hospitals — but some will be left on trees or in the ground, or harvested early and then destroyed.

European farmers and food cooperatives welcomed the move but warned that the Russian ban could cause long lasting damage to the sector, and the cost would be much higher than the money earmarked for support.

Officials will continue to monitor food markets, and could provide support to producers of other foodstuffs as needed.

– CNN’s Ivana Kottasova and Inez Torre contributed to this article.

[mr friendly guy]

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28801185

Rosneft requests $42bn loan from Russian government

Russia's state-controlled energy giant Rosneft has asked the Russian government for a $42bn (£25.2bn) loan, as it feels the impact of Western sanctions.

The government said it will consider the request from Igor Sechin, head of Rosneft, in the next two weeks.

Sanctions on Russia have limited Rosneft's ability to raise funds.

Rosneft has requested the money from the National Wealth Fund, which finances state pensions.

The US imposed sanctions on Rosneft and Novatek, Russia's second-largest gas producer, last month.

The US and EU have restricted sales of technology to the Russian oil industry.
'Reassess their self-sufficiency'

Russia's exports are almost all raw materials and about 60% of these are energy products.

David Spencer-Percival, chief executive of international energy recruitment firm Spencer Ogden, said: "[This is] the clearest sign yet that the Western sanctions are biting hard.

"Given the West's reliance on the Russian energy industry, it is vital governments across Europe reassess their self-sufficiency. This is likely to prompt greater investment in renewable and alternative sources."

The news was initially reported in Vedomosti, the Russian business daily. The paper quoted a letter from Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, in which he asked officials to analyse the data.

Mr Sechin, a close ally of President Putin, said the company needed the money to help it cope with a ban on US credits and loans with a maturity of longer than 90 days, a ban which European banks and investors have also agreed to.

Rosneft has an outstanding debt of $44.5bn (£27bn) following its acquisition of TNK-BP in 2013.

It was this deal that resulted in UK oil company BP taking a hold in Rosneft, in a deal worth $1.5 bn (£1bn).

Like I said, things are getting nasty.
---------------------------------------------------
Well every cloud has a silver lining, sort of... Anyway some countries are taking advantage of these tensions. We see China finally managed to sign that gas deal they had been negotiating with Russia for ages. We see Latin America moving in to fill the void left by European producers much to the chagrin of the EU who still seem to think Europeans can dictate to others how to conduct their business. Now China is trying to again get in on the act.

At least according to the Moscow Times. Haven't had time to confirm from a Chinese source whether this is true.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/ ... 04916.html

China Opens Up Flow of Fruits and Vegetables to Russia

The Moscow Times
Aug. 11 2014 20:25
Last edited 20:26

A Chinese company is opening a special customs zone for direct exports of fruits and vegetables to Russia, jumping to fill the void left by Russia's ban on a series of food imports from the European Union and other opponents of its policies in Ukraine last week.

The zone, which resembles a wholesale market on a territory of 70,000 square meters, will enable Chinese company Baorong to export fruits and vegetables directly across the Russian-Chinese border, Interfax reported Thursday.

Investment in the project totaled 60 million yuan ($9.7 million), the report said. Another Chinese firm, Dili, intends to set up a similar zone in the region by the end of the year.

Last week, the Russian government banned imports of fruits, vegetables, dairy, meat and fish from countries that have imposed sanctions on Moscow over its policy in Ukraine, including the European Union, which previously provided more than a third of Russia's agricultural imports, according to the European Commission.

The Russian government was looking into alternative suppliers of the sanctioned products even before the bans were announced and has already seen some success with Latin America.

On Thursday, Russia's state agricultural watchdog, the Federal Veterinary and Phytosanitary Inspection Service, held talks with representatives of Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador and Chile in an attempt to increase food imports from Latin America.

The response seemed positive: Argentinian meat producers said shortly afterward that they were interested in meeting Russia's demand for meat, RIA Novosti reported.

[K. A. Pital]

I am kind of waiting for an explanation how, if the overall f. USSR economies' GDP follows the very same graph, did the EU make a difference? Because most of these economies are not in the EU. But it seems I will not receive one.

[Welf]

I am kind of waiting for an explanation how, if the overall f. USSR economies' GDP follows the very same graph, did the EU make a difference? Because most of these economies are not in the EU. But it seems I will not receive one.

Short answer: oil. Russia has a lot of it and sells it, the eastern EU members don't have it.

Long answer: you didn't make an argument or proposed a hypothesis, just made half of an suggestion. You showed a graph and then stated "the others look like that". I can't really argue against that or concede since I don't know what your argument is based on. I can argue a lot of things; that GDP is not a good proxy for wealth, about demographics and population growth, I can mention differences in natural resources, different terms of trade because of the size of an economy, different economic structures that may have been a advantage or disadvantage back in the 90s or the reliability of data.

[Vympel]

The Telegraph (UK) did a long piece of Ukraine's various neo-Nazi paramilitary battalions

A former history student and amateur boxer, Mr Biletsky is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly. “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival,” he wrote in a recent commentary. “A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”

...

Ukraine’s government is unrepentant about using the neo-Nazis. “The most important thing is their spirit and their desire to make Ukraine free and independent,” said Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Arsen Avakov, the interior minister. “A person who takes a weapon in his hands and goes to defend his motherland is a hero. And his political views are his own affair.”

I'm sure that these lovely battalions are sowing lots of peace, love and understanding throughout Donetsk and Lugansk.

[mr friendly guy]

A former history student and amateur boxer, Mr Biletsky is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly. “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival,” he wrote in a recent commentary. “A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”

Wow. Just wow. And the EU want to support Kiev without any strings attached in regards to racist fucktards. But don't worry, we will see the EU lecture Latin America about trading with Russia and talk about conscience etc. Oh wait, they already did. Maybe they can lecture the world on hypocrisy while they are at it since they seem much better at it than the conscience stuff.

[Siege]

And the EU want to support Kiev without any strings attached in regards to racist fucktards.

The EU has called over and over again for all parties to cease fighting and engage in dialogue. It has expressed alarm over "the human rights situation, including violence, cases of missing persons, torture and intimidation and deplores the deaths and injuries sustained on all sides". It has called on Ukraine to "investigate all acts of violence". "Efforts should continue to reach out to all Ukrainian regions and population groups and to ensure full protection of the rights of people belonging to national minorities". The EU has publically "encouraged the continuation of inclusive and comprehensive reforms in Ukraine" as recently as four days ago.

Only in the mind of an absolute madman or someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about could the EU's stance translate to 'support' of 'racist fucktards' 'without any strings attached'.

[mr friendly guy]

Firstly I said the EU supports Kiev, not the EU supports those Kiev hires to fight for it, so I don't know how you read that as the EU supports the racists Kiev has hired.

The first part of my statement is not in doubt. The EU has taken Kiev's side in this issue based on your own links. I am not making a judgement about whether Kiev or Moscow is right, merely pointing out the EU supports Kiev.

The second part accuses the EU of supporting Kiev without much oversight into who Kiev hires to fight for them. At best the EU sends a mix message with broad statements like "human rights situation" at the same time saying it "commends the measured response shown so far by the new Ukrainian government". Not once has it specifically mentioned these particular undesirables Kiev has hired (from your links) and I am not sure if hiring people with Nazi sympathies who engage in holocaust denial to fight for you counts as a "measured response." Especially since 2005 the EU condemn Iran for engaging in the same historical revisionism bullshit.

Going on, sources close to the EU trade commissioner's office say the EU will appeal to their (Latin American nations') conscience in trying to dissuade them from trading with Russia. If I was a diplomat for one of those nations, I might be tempted to ask why the EU isn't appealing to Kiev's conscience in the case of who they hire to fight for them, because arming racist fuckwits is going to end well.