Originality for a villian species

[SilverDragonRed]

One of the villians of my setting is an entire society of people looking to make the perfect race.

My Google-fu failed me in this search, so I'm bringing the question on here. Is there any place where they try to accomplish this goal by bringing in the genes of as many sapient species as they can into their own bloodlines?

[Mr Bean]

One of the villians of my setting is an entire society of people looking to make the perfect race.

My Google-fu failed me in this search, so I'm bringing the question on here. Is there any place where they try to accomplish this goal by bringing in the genes of as many sapient species as they can into their own bloodlines?

Tyranids? The Zerg technically, If the Alignment in Honorverse had access to sapient species with compatible biology they would likely be sticking non-human genes in there to.

[gigabytelord]

One of the villians of my setting is an entire society of people looking to make the perfect race.

My Google-fu failed me in this search, so I'm bringing the question on here. Is there any place where they try to accomplish this goal by bringing in the genes of as many sapient species as they can into their own bloodlines?

Tyranids? They may not be quite what your looking for when you say sapient species however. Though they are sapient... sort of...

Damn it Mr Bean beat me to it.

[madd0ct0r]

yes.

Tyranids,

Kroot as well - probably closer to what you are thinking of.

[Lagmonster]

There is absolutely no way that I'd take even long odds on that being an original concept. Extra-species biological assimilation is a recurring theme in a shitload of sci-fi, although you're more likely to find 'absorbed into a hive mind ala the Borg' (Zerg/Tyranids/Dead Space aliens, and to an extent enemies in games like XCOM:Enemy Unknown and Quake IV's Stroggs) as an element of sci-fi horror. Still, based on the prolific nature of the underlying idea, I will give you my complete confidence that someone has conceived of such a variant as you describe.

[InsaneTD]

Kroot are. Though there is a limit to how much the Kroot can pull in before they can't anymore. They also do it organically, not in a technological way. They also sell their services as mercenaries so they can get more genetic material. They are a pretty neutral race as 40,000 races go.

[Simon_Jester]

On the other hand, while "perfection through assimilating the genes of numerous species" is not new by itself, it can be made unique, or at least distinctive, by the spin you put on it.

I'm assuming that this "society" of self-improvers is a more or less 'normal' intelligent species as we understand it: composed of specific individuals that may or may not be humanoid, but are recognizable as discrete, separate beings. Presumably they have something recognizable as science and technology (unlike the Zerg or the Tyranids), as art and culture (likewise). Some sort of government responsible for making decisions. They presumably value their own lives and care about each other, although not necessarily about aliens or foreigners.

Right there, that will distinguish them from the generic swarm of devouring alien beasts.

Then, you start thinking about the consequences for their society. Do they raise children with something recognizable as families? Or in organized creche facilities? HOW do they incorporate alien DNA into themselves; the ability to do that is unlikely to evolve. Are they master genetic engineers, constantly tinkering with a million variations on their species' genome? What do they do with the failed experiments? Do they routinely alter small numbers of themselves to operate in specialized environments? Is there any dissonance within their society about exactly what kind of genetic modifications qualify as 'improving' the species?

By focusing on these questions when exploring the self-perfecters' society, you can make them distinctive from other self-perfecters who answer those questions differently. Or not at all.

[Patrick Ogaard]

One of the villians of my setting is an entire society of people looking to make the perfect race.

My Google-fu failed me in this search, so I'm bringing the question on here. Is there any place where they try to accomplish this goal by bringing in the genes of as many sapient species as they can into their own bloodlines?

The Oankali, from Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy, would fit the bill, I think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oankali

[Starglider]

The Krillitane did this (monster of the week from series two of new Doctor Who).

[Zixinus]

Is there any place where they try to accomplish this goal by bringing in the genes of as many sapient species as they can into their own bloodlines?

I have to ask: why would this make any sense to begin with?

Consider how DNA has to match very, very closely to get a viable organism. There is about 1% difference between humans and chimps. Get one more or less chromosome and you get a nonviable organism. The differences between human-to-human is giants measuring inches when compared to the differences between just a human and a chimp. Yet our DNA is made out of the same stuff.

Now, think about this: would it make sense for humans to start lifting all over from the animal kingdom to "perfect" (whatever that means) themselves?

Not really. Take hibernation: useful for bears and could be useful for humans. Humans hibernating use less resources than awake on a spaceship, where every gram of those resources need several grams of propellent/fuel to get into orbit and move around outer space. Do you think that you could just take the genes from a bear, drop it into a human and hope it works?

Very likely not*. The gene would have to be radically modified or even entirely recreated to work with a human. Bears and humans are not built the same, even though they are more related than say we are to crabs. You will need lots and lots of work to get that gene to work for a human and even then you'll need several generations to fine-tune it to work. Even though the crab's DNA, the bear's DNA and our DNA is made out of same stuff.

Now, imagine trying to swap genes where the genes are made out different stuff. An alien's genes might be encoded into a double-helix but it could easily use different molecules. How on in the world do you suppose that gene-swapping between them could work?

The only useful thing wouldn't even necessarily the genes themselves but how the thing that those genes express would work. Like how hibernation works or how our vocal cords work. Understanding how genes express them is important but in the end, you are better off just recreating a design than trying to make two different biological systems work. Then your species (race refers to a categorization within a species) would at best be characterized as constantly (and very expensively, just in terms of generation-per-generation lives of the majority of your species) remaking themselves by mimicking the characteristics of other species.

That is not even getting into what possibly could a "perfect" race be.

[Broomstick]

The Draka in the later part of the Domination of the Draka series also started practicing gene-modification and adopting from other species as well. They still retained their identity as hominds and a discrete species, although they did consider them separate from H. sapiens. There are some brief episodes in the series that touch on how the Draka society, which emphasized autonomy (for the rulers - not the slaves, of course!) encouraged adoption of gene engineering, and how both the H. sapiens and the new H. drakensis view each other during the transitional generations (answer: with familial affection, apparently).

It's a different take from the more typical Borg/Krillitane/etc. type.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

One of the villians of my setting is an entire society of people looking to make the perfect race.

My Google-fu failed me in this search, so I'm bringing the question on here. Is there any place where they try to accomplish this goal by bringing in the genes of as many sapient species as they can into their own bloodlines?

Others have you covered, so let me ask another question: why is genetic assimilation even necessary to the story you're trying to tell?

[SilverDragonRed]

The Oankali, from Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy, would fit the bill, I think.

That sounds like the Cahdric on the most basic level. The biggest difference being that these Oankali change humans to breed with them, where as Cahdric modify themselves to make that possible.

You are right Simon. They have art, science, technology, and culture like any society. I do apologize for editing your words so much, but it does make it easier to answer point for point.

1.Do they raise children with something recognizable as families? Or in organized creche facilities?
2.Are they master genetic engineers, constantly tinkering with a million variations on their species' genome?
3.What do they do with the failed experiments?
4.Do they routinely alter small numbers of themselves to operate in specialized environments?
5.Is there any dissonance within their society about exactly what kind of genetic modifications qualify as 'improving' the species?

1.At the choice of the parents, the children are either raised by the family or a creche facility.
2.Yes.
3.Destroy them.
4.Yes.
5.Not anymore; they've done for so long that debates have stopped happening.

Others have you covered, so let me ask another question: why is genetic assimilation even necessary to the story you're trying to tell?

It's not about a story; it's about the character of the species.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, Red, in response to what you said to Dr. Trainwreck...

What do you mean "it's not about the story?" The idea of a species assimilating DNA (or its equivalent) from widely different and alien creatures is a very high burden on the reader's suspension of disbelief. I think you should be imposing that burden for a reason.

So you really want to answer a number of separate questions before we can talk meaningfully about these guys.

1) Is there anything about the setting that we should know that makes this possible, when normally it should not? For example, is this a setting where panspermia results in more or less biologically compatible life existing throughout the galaxy, so that splicing genes from aliens into humans is no harder than, say, splicing genes from algae into mice?

2) WHY do these beings wish to 'perfect' themselves? Do they have some special motive or reason, such as believing that they are somehow re-assembling the 'broken' parts of some ancient progenitor race? Their belief doesn't have to be true or even well-founded, mind you- but they may have it anyway, and people outside their own faction may view them negatively because of it.

3) How does their desire to perfect themselves create conflict within the setting? You characterize them as "villains." Let's drop that term because it's trite. Let's call them "antagonists-" the enemies, the competitor, the rival, the group that the protagonist(s) must compete or struggle against to achieve their goals.

Thing is, there's no obvious reason why "we want to assimilate your species' DNA" should result in conflict, unless your protagonists are fanatically opposed to genetic engineering. So clearly it's not what these aliens are that makes them the antagonists.

So it must be something they do. Are they unusually warlike? Do they believe in exterminating species that compete with them for lebensraum? Are they somehow a threat to the established order in some way? Are they the established order, which the protagonists are trying to overthrow for some reason?

Without knowing how to answer these questions, it's hard to figure out how to make your 'Cahdric' unique and interesting, as opposed to being bland and implausible.
_______________________________________

Finally, I would like to specifically respond to your reply to my question (5). I asked: "Is there any dissonance within their society about exactly what kind of genetic modifications qualify as 'improving' the species?"

And you said "Not anymore; they've done for so long that debates have stopped happening."

Now, I'd like to explore this, because I have a sneaking feeling I've been misunderstood.

See, I can easily imagine that the debates within their society about whether to perfect the race of Cahdric by assimilating alien DNA are over. But that wasn't my question. My question was, which ones?

From an even vaguely realistic knowledge of biology we can say confidently that there is no such thing as a single perfect organism.

A shark, for example, is damn near perfect as a marine predator in Earthlike oceans; we know this because they've managed to survive two major extinction events. They are arguably the 'ultimate' marine predator in a very real sense of the word. But sharks are not in any sense the ultimate organism. They would not survive well in, for example, a temperate rainforest. Or on the savannas of Africa. Moreover, they are asocial, incapable of interacting meaningfully with tools, and dumb as a box of rocks- not exactly what an intelligent, culture-loving, starfaring species would want for its children.

Conversely, humans are keenly social, very adaptable, capable of using tools and possessing an outstanding level of physical stamina and endurance that lets human hunters literally run other animals to death by chasing them at a fairly brisk run for hours until they keel over dead from exhaustion and heat-stroke.

So we could reasonably argue, which of these organisms is more 'perfect?' Humans tend to answer 'humans' but we might reasonably accuse them of bias. From a Darwinian perspective, sharks are a magnificent success story- but from a social engineering standpoint that doesn't mean we'd be better off if we were genetically more like sharks.

The normal biologist response is that NO organism can be judged 'better' than another, only well adapted to its surroundings. A microbe is not a higher or lower form of life, it's just a form of life that has adapted to do particular things in a particular way... and, coincidentally, do this by being very small. A shark is not a lower form of life than a human, it is just a form of life that's well adapted to living alone as a marine predator on large aquatic fauna, while humans are well adapted to living socially in a wide variety of land environments and eating pretty much whatever comes into range.

Again, there is no one "ultimate creature" that can be defined independent of the question: what environment is this being adapted to? Nor would somehow combining or averaging creatures well adapted to many different environments create an "ultimate creature," because of tradeoffs: a creature well adapted for swimming may not be well adapted for running, and vice versa.

And while in principle you can design an organism that is as good at swimming as a fish and as good at running as a human... the same amount of genetic engineering effort put into a pure swimmer and a pure runner would probably create two organisms, one that can outswim the compromise design and one that can outrun it. Biology favors specialization, and adaptation to a particular niche.
_____________________________________

Now, perhaps the Chadric do not believe or understand this- but if they can incorporate alien DNA into their own makeup without killing themselves, they must be pretty damn good geneticists and biologists. Which means they probably have a keen understanding of evolution, ecology, and related fields.

Which in turn means that they should believe and understand that there is no one perfect creature. And that before they can specify an answer to the question "what is the perfect, ultimate being?" they must answer the question "perfect for what, and in what sense 'ultimate?' "

When a Chadric pictures the ultimate Chadric, what do they envision?

A) Do they imagine some kind of 'paragon' version of their own species? When I ask this, I ask if the Chadric picture their end goal the way a Nazi would picture a big muscular blond Übermensch when asked what the ultimate human would be like? Because that Übermensch still eats, breathes, and is essentially human, even if he is imagined to be exceptionally strong, healthy, clever, and so on compared to the average human being.

B) Do they picture a creature that is physiologically similar to the ancestral Chadric, but modified? In this sense, a human might picture a recognizable humanoid being, with a human face, two arms, two legs and so on... but one that might have significant visible differences. These differences would apply so that it can, say, think five times faster, survive for hours in the vacuum of space, never suffer the effects of aging, and go a month without sleep, or whatever laundry list of fantastic superpowers you want to attach.

C) Do they picture a creature that is totally unlike the ancestral Chadric, and accept that they will incorporate any genes they need to according to some particular rule, even if it makes their offspring look ugly and weird to their own eyes?
_____________________

And in any of these cases... to what environment, to what circumstances, do the Chadric believe that the ultimate Chadric would be adapted to?

Are they supposed to be very good at occupying some niche in a natural environment? That seems unlikely because any starfaring species would be better off relying on its technology to manipulate its environment. For after all, the ultimate Chadric does not need to be able to survive in a howling blizzard if it is easy to provide him with a heavy coat!

Are they an idealized version of the technological being, with biological changes that make them better adapted to living in cities, using technological tools, and familiarizing themselves with such technology?

And all these things tie into the most fundamental question, the one I really meant to ask:

What, exactly, do they want to add to themselves?

What featuers of their species are they most interested in enhancing? What tradeoffs will they accept? Do they want to be physically larger and stronger? Smarter? More disease-resistant? Immune to hunger or thirst? Immortal? Miscellaneous superpowers?

Would they accept, say, becoming more vulnerable to hunger (high metabolism) in exchange for a superior intellect? Or the other way around- would they knowingly design their offspring with lower IQ if it meant making them biologically immortal?

And, finally, the related question I actually asked, now explained in painful detail...

Is there disagreement about what to add to themselves?

Are there Chadric how modify themselves with lots of genes for super-muscles? Are there other Chadric with intelligence enhancements instead? Do the two groups of Chadric disagree about which kind of modification is more important? Do they sneer at each other as, respectively, a bunch of musclebound roidasaurus jocks and a bunch of pencil-necked, frail and feeble dorks? Are there Chadric who think it's worth making the extreme modifications required to survive unprotected on very hostile planetary environments? Are there other Chadric who do not agree? Are there Chadric at one extreme of the spectrum who view Chadric at the other extreme as having modified themselves no far that they no longer truly are Chadric?

Even if the entire species agrees on genetic self-perfection by assimilating alien DNA, with no dissenters at all (really?)... There is STILL room for disagreement on all these topics, and more.

[mr friendly guy]

There is absolutely no way that I'd take even long odds on that being an original concept. Extra-species biological assimilation is a recurring theme in a shitload of sci-fi, although you're more likely to find 'absorbed into a hive mind ala the Borg' (Zerg/Tyranids/Dead Space aliens, and to an extent enemies in games like XCOM:Enemy Unknown and Quake IV's Stroggs) as an element of sci-fi horror. Still, based on the prolific nature of the underlying idea, I will give you my complete confidence that someone has conceived of such a variant as you describe.

In an episode of Farscape, the villain of the week had taken the genetic material of aliens he had studied to improve himself.

[InsaneTD]

He only did that for himself though. He did have a pretty unique reason for doing it though. And one might assume he might have done it for a mate if he'd met someone.

[Korto]

1) Is there anything about the setting that we should know that makes this possible, when normally it should not? For example, is this a setting where panspermia results in more or less biologically compatible life existing throughout the galaxy, so that splicing genes from aliens into humans is no harder than, say, splicing genes from algae into mice?

2) WHY do these beings wish to 'perfect' themselves? Do they have some special motive or reason, such as believing that they are somehow re-assembling the 'broken' parts of some ancient progenitor race? Their belief doesn't have to be true or even well-founded, mind you- but they may have it anyway, and people outside their own faction may view them negatively because of it.

3) How does their desire to perfect themselves create conflict within the setting? You characterize them as "villains." Let's drop that term because it's trite. Let's call them "antagonists-" the enemies, the competitor, the rival, the group that the protagonist(s) must compete or struggle against to achieve their goals.

Thing is, there's no obvious reason why "we want to assimilate your species' DNA" should result in conflict, unless your protagonists are fanatically opposed to genetic engineering. So clearly it's not what these aliens are that makes them the antagonists.

So it must be something they do. Are they unusually warlike? Do they believe in exterminating species that compete with them for lebensraum? Are they somehow a threat to the established order in some way? Are they the established order, which the protagonists are trying to overthrow for some reason?

And, as an idea, it would occur to me to combine 1) and 2). There was some original race, that spread its DNA through the galaxy, and all the other intelligent species evolved from that. These guys have decided that the original race was the 'perfect' species, and so they're trying to recreate themselves in their image. Problem - Over all the time and random mutation, they only have a small fraction of the original DNA left, and so they're hunting through all the other species in the galaxy for this original DNA, trying to gather together all the bits and fragments.
For the conflict, well, this is pretty religious, this genetic quest. They may believe that all the other races are defective, because of all the changes in their DNA since, and must be destroyed once they've gotten what they need. They may even consider it a kindness. Obviously this 'defective' argument doesn't apply to them, because they're the Chosen Ones.

[bilateralrope]

Are they an idealized version of the technological being, with biological changes that make them better adapted to living in cities, using technological tools, and familiarizing themselves with such technology?

If they are going down that route, are biological changes really the best way to do it ?
Or would they go down a cybernetic route ?

For the conflict, well, this is pretty religious, this genetic quest. They may believe that all the other races are defective, because of all the changes in their DNA since, and must be destroyed once they've gotten what they need. They may even consider it a kindness. Obviously this 'defective' argument doesn't apply to them, because they're the Chosen Ones.

Or worse, they forcibly alter the other races they come across to bring them closer to this progenitor race.

That does give me one idea. One faction* sees the variation between sentient species in the galaxy. They see how those differences make it difficult for devices designed for one race to work for another. So they decided to remove those differences. Instead of claiming that one race is superior to the others, they believe that no race is superior, so some sort of average is the best end result to aim for.

*They could start as a sinlge species, or a group of like-minded individuals from multiple species.

[madd0ct0r]

the beigenators. sounds chilling

[Cykeisme]

That does give me one idea. One faction* sees the variation between sentient species in the galaxy. They see how those differences make it difficult for devices designed for one race to work for another. So they decided to remove those differences. Instead of claiming that one race is superior to the others, they believe that no race is superior, so some sort of average is the best end result to aim for.

*They could start as a sinlge species, or a group of like-minded individuals from multiple species.

I can imagine the procedure that "homogenizes" other races may be quite horrific for cultural or actual physical reasons; to certain species the loss of certain biological functions in their brain-equivalent structures might actually result in a loss of continuity of consciousness. Or, say, causes loss of unique sensory capability that makes them depressed (the way sight or hearing is for us).

The really chilling thing about this, is that despite the fact that this faction is impinging on the rights of other species, you can actually see how they really do have good intentions :O

[bilateralrope]

Suddenly having a new sense doesn't sound comfortable either.

Or just enhancing a sense we don't use that often. Imagine how humanity would react if we suddenly woke up one day to have sense of smell comparable to dogs.

[Simon_Jester]

Are they an idealized version of the technological being, with biological changes that make them better adapted to living in cities, using technological tools, and familiarizing themselves with such technology?

If they are going down that route, are biological changes really the best way to do it ?
Or would they go down a cybernetic route ?

They might have serious problems with the idea of transferring their consciousness all the way over to machines. And if they go only partway down that path, and make cyborgs of themselves... well. Nobody said that you can't genetically engineer "the perfect man" to be very highly compatible with the latest cyberware. Don't bother genetically engineering him to be super-strong, the cyborg limbs can take care of that... but work really hard on making sure he has a high compatibility with the equipment and his tissues don't reject the cybernetic implants.

The point is that different species, or even different subcultures within a single society, might disagree sharply about what a genetically enhanced perfect person would look like... even if they're all strongly committed to the idea of self-perfection. So I'd really like to know if that disagreement still exists in Red's villains, or if he's made them a total monoculture with a fixed concept of what perfection looks like.

[bilateralrope]

The point is that different species, or even different subcultures within a single society, might disagree sharply about what a genetically enhanced perfect person would look like... even if they're all strongly committed to the idea of self-perfection. So I'd really like to know if that disagreement still exists in Red's villains, or if he's made them a total monoculture with a fixed concept of what perfection looks like.

Agreed. That idea I came up with is a faction that is likely to have that discussion flare up every time they encounter a new species. Especially if the species has some feature that they have never seen before. It could even make them more horrifying as, not only will they change you when they first capture you, they might change you again because their consensus of the target form they are aiming towards will change over time.

[SilverDragonRed]

Are they an idealized version of the technological being, with biological changes that make them better adapted to living in cities, using technological tools, and familiarizing themselves with such technology?

If they are going down that route, are biological changes really the best way to do it ?
Or would they go down a cybernetic route ?

They might have serious problems with the idea of transferring their consciousness all the way over to machines.

They find the idea of cybernetic augmentation repulsive. Laws have pretty much been founded to dissauge people from going down that road (except for medical devices in severe cases, and some frown heavily on at). There would be a black market trade for that as long as the recipients could hide them.

For example, is this a setting where panspermia results in more or less biologically compatible life existing throughout the galaxy, so that splicing genes from aliens into humans is no harder than, say, splicing genes from algae into mice?

Sorry if I confused anyone on this, but I wasn't talking about these guys splicing themselves to 'perfection' (generally speaking). It's that they try to breed alien genetics into their society, so that their children would be a step closer to the stated goal.

[Simon_Jester]

Er... do you understand what you're saying?

What does it mean to "breed alien genetics into" an organism? An attempt at sexual reproduction between creatures from different planets is obviously not going to work unless the two creatures are actually closely related subspecies who shared a point of origin from the geologically recent past. So clearly this would have to be done by artificial intervention of some kind- genetic engineering.

In which case it seems quite accurate to say that they are "splicing" genes from various organisms into their offspring.