OT God versus Current Era Humanity

[Darth Wong]

and his habit of taking credit for natural events indicates that his power is greatly overstated. Any modern man with modern technology could duplicate his observed feats, which are far more limited than the natural phenomena he takes credit for.

In fairness, we can't really establish an upper limit based on this; for all we know, God could in fact have been responsible for these events. It is quite possible that they occured without his influence, but we don't know that for sure.

If I stood there the day before an eclipse and said "tomorrow the sky will become as black as sackcloth through my almighty power" and then it did, would you say that you don't know for sure whether I'm bullshitting?

Anythin God took credit for which could have been a natural event probably was. This was a guy who couldn't defeat a primitive army using iron chariots, for fuck's sake.

[Howedar]

I'm not saying that God definately did it in the Bible, I'm just saying that it is a possibility (he supposedly controls nature, after all). A true upper limit cannot be derived from those examples.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not saying that God definately did it in the Bible, I'm just saying that it is a possibility (he supposedly controls nature, after all). A true upper limit cannot be derived from those examples.

How many times has the "iron chariots" failure been mentioned? Are you willfully ignoring it?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So we've now determined that a paramilitary force with .50cal anti-material rifles and 70s Chevy Impalas could defeat OT God?

[Graeme Dice]

If I stood there the day before an eclipse and said "tomorrow the sky will become as black as sackcloth through my almighty power" and then it did, would you say that you don't know for sure whether I'm bullshitting?

Can you make the eclipse last for three days, and turn an entire river system into blood?

[Howedar]

I'm not saying that God definately did it in the Bible, I'm just saying that it is a possibility (he supposedly controls nature, after all). A true upper limit cannot be derived from those examples.

How many times has the "iron chariots" failure been mentioned? Are you willfully ignoring it?

In that I've never read the Bible, yes.

We've got this problem again where you're telling me I'm willfully ignoring a point, as if this is a problem. If I'm not arguing a point, that means I either don't have a position on the issue or I believe you're right. I'm not interested in arguing that issue, I'm talking about this one.

In this case, I've never read that passage of the Bible, so I'm not educated enough to argue the point, even if I wanted to. I'm just saying that we cannot assume that the natural events were not God-induced (since according to the Christian school of thinking, God pretty much is nature AFAIK).

[Graeme Dice]

If I stood there the day before an eclipse and said "tomorrow the sky will become as black as sackcloth through my almighty power" and then it did, would you say that you don't know for sure whether I'm bullshitting?

Since we are supposed to be treating the Bible as an accurate source here, why don't you actually read it for your information. Can you make that eclipse last for three days, or turn the Nile into blood?

[Darth Wong]

Since we are supposed to be treating the Bible as an accurate source here, why don't you actually read it for your information. Can you make that eclipse last for three days, or turn the Nile into blood?

Can you explain how they knew it lasted for three days with no clocks? An eyewitness account of an eclipse which lasts for three days is of little meaning if they have no accurate timepieces. As for polluting the Nile and changing its colour, that's actually not difficult at all for someone with the right resources. Hell, we pollute water systems and change their colour by ACCIDENT.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Can you explain how they knew it lasted for three days with no clocks? An eyewitness account of an eclipse which lasts for three days is of little meaning if they have no accurate timepieces. As for polluting the Nile and changing its colour, that's actually not difficult at all for someone with the right resources. Hell, we pollute water systems and change their colour by ACCIDENT.

To reinforce this: If a day is one rising and setting of the sun, how exactly do you measure that if the sun hasn't risen and set?

[Zoink]

Since we are supposed to be treating the Bible as an accurate source here, why don't you actually read it for your information. Can you make that eclipse last for three days, or turn the Nile into blood?

Use a large space-based solar shield to locally block out the sun, and some kind of chemical dump upstream to give the appearance of blood water.

He may be space capable, that's why I suggested developing some kind of high velocity, low orbit capable weapon.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Use a large space-based solar shield to locally block out the sun, and some kind of chemical dump upstream to give the appearance of blood water.

He may be space capable, that's why I suggested developing some kind of high velocity, low orbit capable weapon.

Why bother? We could apparently go as low as Camaros and AKs and still win.

[Dennis Toy]

Man you all are DELUSIONAL..... do you KNOW if you try to fight god you will....


LOSE!! He will send you into eternity,you will cease to exist buddy...


go ahead and try to fight god....

[Graeme Dice]

Use a large space-based solar shield to locally block out the sun, and some kind of chemical dump upstream to give the appearance of blood water.

We can't do the first, and the second doesn't also get all the water that is currently sitting in holding tanks.

[Graeme Dice]

Can you explain how they knew it lasted for three days with no clocks? An eyewitness account of an eclipse which lasts for three days is of little meaning if they have no accurate timepieces.

So since they can't accurately measure three days it must have been a few minutes. I see, how could I ever have made that mistake.

As for polluting the Nile and changing its colour, that's actually not difficult at all for someone with the right resources. Hell, we pollute water systems and change their colour by ACCIDENT.

I see. So now we are working off the assumption that the eyewitness aren't reliable, and don't know what blood looks and smells like, and that a random spill into the river also contaminated water that was sitting in buckets beforehand.

[Crayz9000]

Um, I'm just exactly wondering how you can shoot a non-corporeal being who is allegedly omnipresent... this isn't the ST5 "god" we're talking about, remember...

[Frank Hipper]

Man you all are DELUSIONAL..... do you KNOW if you try to fight god you will....


LOSE!! He will send you into eternity,you will cease to exist buddy...


go ahead and try to fight god....

I've been trying to fight him for years now, he's never shown up. What a pussy....

[Darth Wong]

Can you explain how they knew it lasted for three days with no clocks? An eyewitness account of an eclipse which lasts for three days is of little meaning if they have no accurate timepieces.

So since they can't accurately measure three days it must have been a few minutes. I see, how could I ever have made that mistake.

It's far more reasonable than converting a day into billions of years. A short time can seem like a long one when you're scared, and people of that era unabashedly exaggerated their stories. Even if we assume they're not lying, this doesn't mean they're not exaggerating. They simply didn't have the same interest in factual accuracy that we have today.

As for polluting the Nile and changing its colour, that's actually not difficult at all for someone with the right resources. Hell, we pollute water systems and change their colour by ACCIDENT.

I see. So now we are working off the assumption that the eyewitness aren't reliable, and don't know what blood looks and smells like, and that a random spill into the river also contaminated water that was sitting in buckets beforehand.

Obviously, since people of that era told stories with a penchant for exaggeration, this is completely reasonable and you know it (this also applies for the previous point). However, let's say we humour your assumption that we should take it word-for-word literally: how does the ability to turn a river into blood translate into the ability to wipe out an enemy army, since he COULD NOT DEFEAT AN ARMY WITH IRON CHARIOTS?

This citation for this fact was already pointed out before in this thread; would you care to ignore it again?

Taken literally, God is a man of human form who wrestled with Moses inconclusively on the ground. Even if he has some neat tricks up his sleeve, he's still toast if he dares show his face in front of a modern army.

And as for the "but he's omnipotent" stuff, too bad. If he couldn't drive out an army because they had iron chariots, then he's not omnipotent, is he? Besides, if a modern army wanted to kick Pharoah's ass and force him to release his slaves, they could easily terrify him as much as God did, if not more so.

[Graeme Dice]

[quote="Darth Wong]It's far more reasonable than converting a day into billions of years. A short time can seem like a long one when you're scared, and people of that era unabashedly exaggerated their stories. Even if we assume they're not lying, this doesn't mean they're not exaggerating. They simply didn't have the same interest in factual accuracy that we have today.[/quote]
That's still dodging the point though that a person can easily tell that multiple days have passed simply by looking at how much they ate or any of a nmber of other methods.

Obviously, since people of that era told stories with a penchant for exaggeration, this is completely reasonable and you know it (this also applies for the previous point), let's say we humour your assumption that we should take it word-for-word literally: how does the ability to turn a river into blood translate into the ability to wipe out an enemy army, since he COULD NOT DEFEAT AN ARMY WITH IRON CHARIOTS?

Strawman. The point of this thread is to find things that we can't do in the modern era. I found two of them, but as I expected, you're completely unable to get pass your bias.

This citation for this fact was already pointed out before in this thread; would you care to ignore it again?

Care to build up any more strawmen?

[Zoink]

Below is the passage from the bible on the "river of blood" . I bolded the section that pertains to what actually happened (according to the bible), to differentiate it from what God said would happen.

7:17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD:
behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters
which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

7:18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall
stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the
river.

7:19 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and
stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams,
upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of
water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood
throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in
vessels of stone.

7:20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted
up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight
of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that
were in the river were turned to blood.

7:21 And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and
the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was
blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

7:22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and
Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the
LORD had said.

7:23 And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set
his heart to this also.

7:24 And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to
drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

[Cyborg Stan]

Strawman. The point of this thread is to find things that we can't do in the modern era. I found two of them, but as I expected, you're completely unable to get pass your bias.

1) The point of the thread is barring Genesis, who can do more wondrous things. The Iron Chariots part show we certainly have better military capabilities, and the limits of the OT God. We can easily conceive of ways to at least duplicate the feat over a small area, albiet taking a bunch of resources. Can the OT God design and implement the projects modern society already implented? Man on the moon? Out-of-Solar System Probes? Nuclear Weapons? The Internet? Genetic Engineering for Useful Purposes?

2) Exactly how was his statement a strawman? You do know what a 'strawman' is, don't you? It's setting up a deliberately weak/distorted version of the opponent's arguement so you can knock it down. You seem to be using it as a buzzword.

[Rye]

yes, barring genesis, in terms of works, could we outdo him in everything he did in the old testament, e.g block out the sun over such a place for 4 days, divert plagues into cities, seed the algae that turns local water to appear like blood and so on. i think we could well take him.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Who's got the exact quote for the "God couldn't beat people with iron chariots" thing from the OT?

Judges 1:19: "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

I think god is gonna need an upgrade before judgement day

[Zoink]

I think god is gonna need an upgrade before judgement day

yup:

Utah 2003:3: "And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had M-1 Battle Tanks."

[Crazy_Vasey]

I was thinking more along the lines of:

"And then God came down from the heavens to smite the infidels. Unfortunately he was ran over by a boy racer in a ford fiesta with some rather fetching neon go-faster stripes..."

[Darth Wong]

That's still dodging the point though that a person can easily tell that multiple days have passed simply by looking at how much they ate or any of a nmber of other methods.

Oh, right. People back then thought eclipses signified heavenly rage; you expect them to behave rationally? Besides, that is hardly the only way darkness could be brought upon the land. Atmospheric particulates (eg- from volcano or meteor impact) can cover a small area in a blanket of darkness temporarily, and even heavy cloud cover can make things dark enough that people might want to stay indoors.

For a modern simulation (darkness and people scared to go outside), we could simply pump smoke across the villages. Again, nothing requiring omnipotence and certainly nothing implying that Yahweh won't get his ass kicked.

Strawman. The point of this thread is to find things that we can't do in the modern era. I found two of them, but as I expected, you're completely unable to get pass your bias.

Ah yes, appeal to bias. Classic attack of the bullshitter.

Time for facts: the actual Biblical passage says nothing about your bullshit regarding water already in stone vessels turning to blood; God boasts that he'll do this but it doesn't even come to pass. In fact, it doesn't even state that the river smelled like blood; it only says the fish died and it stank, probably of rotting fish. As I said before, we can do this today, by ACCIDENT. Worse yet, it even says that the Egyptians did the same thing just to prove a point (Exodus 7:22), which makes it even more clear that it was hardly the miracle you make it out to be.

Got any more bullshit to peddle?

Care to build up any more strawmen?

Oh, puh-leeease forgive me for assuming that you would actually try to address the point of the thread instead of avoiding it in favour of bullshit and nitpicks. I see now that I shouldn't have assessed your intent so generously.