China intensifies oppression of minority

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Thanas »

China Targets Ordinary Uighurs With Beards, Burkas

Outside a mosque in China's restive west, a government-appointed Muslim cleric was dodging a foreign reporter's question about why young men of the Uighur ethnic minority don't have beards when one such youth interrupted.

"Why don't you just tell them the truth?" he shouted to the cleric under the nervous gaze of several police officers who had been tailing the reporters all day in the oasis city of Aksu. "It's because the government doesn't allow beards."

A plainclothes Uighur policeman swiftly rebuked the young man. "Be careful what you say," he warned.

The tense exchange provided a fleeting glimpse of both the extremes of China's restrictions on minority Uighurs (pronounced WEE'-gurs) and the resentment that simmers beneath the surface in their homeland. Such a mood pervades Xinjiang's south, a vast, mainly rural region that's become a key battleground in the ruling Communist Party's struggle to contain escalating ethnic violence that has killed at least a few hundred people over the past 18 months.

The personal matter of facial hair has taken on heavy political overtones in the Uighur heartland. Also proscribed are certain types of women's headscarves, veils and "jilbabs," loose, full-length garments worn in public. Such restrictions are not new but their enforcement has intensified this year in the wake of attacks Beijing has blamed on religious extremists.

In a recent sweep of Urumqi, the region's capital, authorities last week said they seized 1,265 hijab-type headscarves, 259 jilbabs and even clothes printed with Islamic star-and-crescent symbols. Officials also "rescued" 82 children from studying the Quran, the government said.

The prohibitions on Islamic attire and beards have attracted widespread criticism, with many experts saying such repression angers ordinary Uighurs and risks radicalizing them.

"It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's self-perpetuating. The more they crack down on it, the more people re-Islamize. This is a pattern we see all over the world," said Joanne Smith Finley, an expert on Uighurs at Britain's Newcastle University. "The Chinese state has created a growing terrorist threat where previously there was none. It has stimulated an Islamic renewal where there wouldn't necessarily have been one."

A major thrust of the yearlong crackdown on terrorism has been a campaign against religious extremism, with arrests of hundreds of people for watching videos apparently hailing terrorism or extremist ideology. But authorities also are targeting beards, veils and other symbols of religious piety in a campaign that creeps ever farther into Uighurs' daily lives despite official claims that the government respects religious freedom.

"At the moment, we face a very serious, intense and complex situation with fighting terrorism and maintaining stability," a party newspaper, the Xinjiang Daily, said in an edict to "front-line" minority cadres in late July. Officials, it said, must also act to control weddings without singing and dancing and funerals where there are no feasts — referring to Uighur customs the government says Islamic conservatives have barred.

Young Uighur men are discouraged from keeping beards and those who have them are stopped at checkpoints and questioned. So are women who wear Muslim headscarves and veils that obscure their faces. Some public places such as hospitals bar such individuals from entering. Earlier this month, the northern Xinjiang city of Karamay announced that young men with beards and women in burkas or hijabs would not be allowed on public buses.

In the city of Aksu, Ma Yanfeng, the director of the city's foreign propaganda office, said the government was concerned that Uighurs were being unduly influenced by radical Islamic forces from overseas.

"It's because they have been incited by others to do so," Ma said, noting that traditional dress of Uighur women is multicolored. "Those clothes that are all black are a sign of influence from foreigners like in Turkey and have to do with extremist thinking."

Unlike in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or parts of South Asia, veils and abayas are relatively new to Uighurs in Xinjiang, only growing in popularity in recent decades, scholars say.

Uighur historically have used "ikat" textiles with bold patterns and brilliant colors, an aesthetic they share with Uzbeks, Tajiks and other Central Asian cultures. Contemporary Uighur women, especially those in cities, dress like other urbanites though they aren't likely to bare a lot of skin.

Uighurs have been adopting veils and beards in a shift toward more pious lives, partly as symbolic resistance to Chinese rule and partly out of a desire for the egalitarianism associated with Islam to mend social inequalities, said Smith Finley, the Newcastle expert who has studied Uighurs since 1991.

The shift is also in reaction to dashed hopes for independence after bloody riots in 1997 and the ensuing crackdown, she said.

Some Uighurs see their current plight as punishment from God for not being good enough Muslims. They think "if I'm a better Muslim, then the Uighurs as a whole will be better Muslims and our future, our situation, will be better," she said.

Chinese authorities apparently make little distinction between these expressions of piety and the kind of extremism that poses a threat to society.

In May, police in the county of Luntai raided women's dress shops and confiscated jilbabs. A photo on the local government's website showed four male police officers at a shop examining textiles while a woman in a black jilbab, likely a shop assistant or owner, stood in the background watching.

The rubber-stamp legislature in the southern prefecture of Turpan says on its website it is considering a law to impose fines of up to 500 yuan ($80) for wearing veils and cloaks in public. The legislature says the law would help safeguard social stability, cultural security and gender equality and even protect health — because, the proposal says, burkas deprive skin of sunlight and can cause heatstroke in summer.

Elsewhere, officials have been rounding up dozens of Uighur women to attend indoctrination sessions and to trade their jilbabs and veils for traditional Uighur silk dresses.

"After today's ideological education, I now understand that the jilbab is not our ethnic group's traditional attire, and I recognize that veils and wearing jilbabs is incompatible with Islamic culture and is a backward and bad practice," a woman named Ayiguli Bake was quoted by a local party-run newspaper as saying in a scripted fashion.

But on the streets of Kuqa and Aksu, many women could be seen wearing headscarves that covered their necks, though black cloaks were nowhere in sight and in most instances only elderly men had beards.

Chinese officials probably are targeting outward manifestations of piety because they cannot "fundamentally alter people's inner states," said Gardner Bovingdon, a Xinjiang expert at Indiana University.

"I can't make you stop admiring a more rigorous, scriptural Islam, but I can make you shave off that beard, I can make you take off that scarf," Bovingdon said. "So that's what I'll do."

The authorities' heavy hand has reportedly sparked protests. In the rural town of Alaqagha, 40 kilometers (25 miles) south of Kuqa, police fired into a crowd in May when villagers violently protested the detention of women and girls for wearing headscarves and Islamic robes, according to the U.S. government-funded broadcaster Radio Free Asia.

On a recent evening in Alaqagha, rows of surveillance cameras perched atop street lights watched residents breaking their fasts at a small outdoor market. Pistol-carrying police who were trailing Associated Press journalists kept an eye on the villagers, who included women with headscarves shopping at donkey-drawn fruit carts.

"It's the state's way of saying 'we don't trust you, we see your religion as being something that's inherently of concern to us,'" said Sophie Richardson, China director at Human Rights Watch. "'We are going to treat it as fundamentally problematic behavior, not as the basic right that it is.'"
China's solution to terrorism seems a bit unorthodox and a lot racist.

"We got terrorists? Quick, let's forbid all of them to wear religious symbols. That'll teach them."
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Arthur_Tuxedo
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5637
Joined: 2002-07-23 03:28am
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Brilliant. As we all know, the best way to make sure a minority doesn't radicalize is to marginalize and persecute them.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark." - Muhammad Ali

"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by madd0ct0r »

i dunno, it's not that different to the french approach is it?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Thanas »

madd0ct0r wrote:i dunno, it's not that different to the french approach is it?
Depends, the french only ban burkhas. Quite different to banning facial hair et al.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
NoXion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 306
Joined: 2005-04-21 01:38am
Location: Perfidious Albion

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by NoXion »

I thought that Chinese authoritarianism was modulated somewhat by a certain ruthless pragmatism. So why are they attempting to assert control in a way that any expert (which China surely isn't short of) can tell you risks leading to more unrest in the future?
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16432
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Batman »

The experts telling the government something they don't want to hear has routinely been ignored by reasonably democratic governments in the past, why should the Chinese be any different?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2777
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by AniThyng »

I wonder if anyone would see this as similar to how the manchu's forced men to wear braids...
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
User avatar
NoXion
Padawan Learner
Posts: 306
Joined: 2005-04-21 01:38am
Location: Perfidious Albion

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by NoXion »

Batman wrote:The experts telling the government something they don't want to hear has routinely been ignored by reasonably democratic governments in the past, why should the Chinese be any different?
Changing governments every five or so years would necessitate a degree of short-termist populism and inter-party points-scoring, problems which I don't think exist for the Chinese government. It's not like coming down hard on inconsequential expressions of Muslim piety is the only (let alone best) way that the Chinese state can assert their control.
Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker - Mikhail Bakunin
Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society - Karl Marx
Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value - R. Buckminster Fuller
The important thing is not to be human but to be humane - Eliezer S. Yudkowsky


Nova Mundi, my laughable attempt at an original worldbuilding/gameplay project
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

You must first and forthmost understand that Chinese people in general utterly loathe anything that disturbs the public peace/status quo. These Uighurs etc. have been a source of trouble (bombings, slashing etc.) and thus became public enemy No. 1. There will be almost no sympathy for their plight there and if the Uighur even resist more, the Chinese government will have no compunction against squeezing harder and harder and the Chinese people are 1 billion against a few million.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
cosmicalstorm
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1642
Joined: 2008-02-14 09:35am

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by cosmicalstorm »

They will be stuck with these clumsy methods until practical mind-reading/mind-control technology becomes mainstream.
Anyway I don't like this very much but I have to say that the lesson from the Middle East seems to be that life was a lot better under the ruthless dictators than under the current mix of warlords and Islamic State gunmen.

China gobbled up quite a bit of territory, I wonder what the long term plan for that region is? How is the population replacement thing going in that place, are the Han still a minority?
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:i dunno, it's not that different to the french approach is it?
Depends, the french only ban burkhas. Quite different to banning facial hair et al.
Part of Peter the Great's campaign of modernizing Russia in European ways included beard-cutting, heh.
Noxion wrote:Changing governments every five or so years would necessitate a degree of short-termist populism and inter-party points-scoring, problems which I don't think exist for the Chinese government.
China's government changes in 6-year cycles.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4567
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Ralin »

NoXion wrote:I thought that Chinese authoritarianism was modulated somewhat by a certain ruthless pragmatism. So why are they attempting to assert control in a way that any expert (which China surely isn't short of) can tell you risks leading to more unrest in the future?
You seem to be under the impression that it has ever at any time occurred to the Chinese government (or public at large) to be sensitive to the culture of people who are not Han Chinese and I don't think this is an accurate belief. Uighur unrest poses no threat to the Chinese government or anyone else who doesn't happen to be standing nearby when the riots/bombs/etc go off, and those people also probably won't be anyone the government especially cares about. Far better to crack down hard than to set the precedent for other minorities that protesting and defiance can get them accommodations. Increased radicalization just means that there will be less bleating abroad about human rights and shit when they crack down even harder.

Also I think you're wrong in believing that China has lots of Uighur experts on hand. Why the hell would they? You're not going to make money that way.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by mr friendly guy »

1. Copying European policies of banning symbols of religious piety and applying it conveniently to one group isn't the best idea the CCP came up with.

This seems to be extension of previous policies whereas they tried to convince Uyghurs not to wear the Burkha by appealing to their vanity. That is promoting how good you look with your hair revealed etc.

I do find it ironic that in this case the Chinese are for their own interests promoting traditional Uyghur culture with women's clothing against some of the new Islamic trends coming from elsewhere, but if some other ethnic minority adopted different than traditional cultures China would be accused of cultural genocide. Oh wait that already happened.

Of course China tried to go even further than what the Europeans did by banning beards and this most probably will not work.

2.
Earlier this month, the northern Xinjiang city of Karamay announced that young men with beards and women in burkas or hijabs would not be allowed on public buses.
I would like to point out this was a heavy handed security measure which used bullshit racial profiling during a period of sporting event....which ended when the sporting event finished on August 20 which is several days before the article in the OP was published. Just pointing out that this is temporary, but not exactly how I would have done things.

3. Its interesting that when Richard Dawkins proposed that kids not be taught religion until they are old enough, a lot of atheists cheered. China actually openly does this policy and its criticised in the very article.

The problem though is not so much they have rules to prevent indoctrination, but its applied haphazardly. You either apply it to all, or not at all because they would tend to create resentment in the group which its applied to. Which leads to the next point.

4. The Hui muslims who are the largest Muslim ethnic group in China get a reasonable deal. Why do I say that? Well the flippant answer is that the Western Media can't find things to bitch about. A more detailed answer would be we can see evidence that these rules are not enforced for them. For example they are allowed to bring kids to Mosques and openly do it in front of Chinese film crews (it was a tourism doco). The crew pretty much comment its against the rules but no one gives a shit.

There are other concessions China makes to Muslims which would be considered political correctness gone mad in Australia. For example the term pork isn't called pork in parts of China with a decent Muslim population. A new euphemism is created which literally translates as big meat (just for interest there is no euphemism called little meat as our guide was quick to point out). Everyone locally knows the term refers to pork, but its not called pork because apparently it offends Muslims. Whether Muslims really are offended by that is another matter.

This begs the question, why are the largest Muslim group (and some smaller ones) getting a better deal than Uyghurs? Its not like the province where the Hui predominantly live (Ningxia) is exactly China's richest province. Its GDP per capita (2011 figures) is less than Xinjiang's. Part of the reason is that Hui Muslims have historically supported Han Chinese in various conflicts. Pogroms have been launched against them by Tibetans and Uyghurs in the past and in the present. Another is that they aren't separatists and have integrated well into Chinese society. When Chinese think of Hui they most probably think what is shown on tourism videos and not of terrorist attacks.

This of course will feed a vicious circle which is hard to break. Many Chinese consider it unfair that ethnic minorities get concessions such as affirmative action policies for uni entry. If the ethnic minority takes advantage, but otherwise are perceived to cause no trouble, people would most probably not get too worked up over it. However when terrorist attacks occur,the average citizen perceives this as ungratefulness, calls for tougher measures, and Beijing responds. Society becomes more polarised. Which in turns prompts more radicalisation etc. Eventually something will give if this keeps up, and it won't be Beijing. Ethnic minorities are outnumbered several times over by Han Chinese, and the largest minority groups don't have separatist tendencies and will side with Beijing.

The question becomes, can someone break this circle before it turns to shit. The last thing anyone wants is for these regions to become like god damn Gaza. As some has pointed out, what is the long term plan. Do they have a plan? From what I gather they actually do.
cosmicalstorm wrote:
China gobbled up quite a bit of territory, I wonder what the long term plan for that region is? How is the population replacement thing going in that place, are the Han still a minority?
Before I answer whether there is some sort of end plan, I will just want to point out a few things.

a. They gobbled up territory in the 18th century, yeah. By the time the Communist party won the civil war only small parts of Xinjiang was actually de facto independent. Most of it was still under the control of the previous government, and they promptly surrendered when they saw which was the wind was blowing.

b. Uyghurs are still the largest ethnic group in Xinjiang (very slight) but no longer the majority. Its also worth nothing, the distribution is not equal. That is Han tend to congregate in Urumuqi (the capital) while Uyghurs are more numerous in Kashgar (the other big city).

c. The long term plan is to develop the region and increase standard of living. Its based on the belief that extremism would die down (if not disappear) with the event of increasing living standards. So expect them to put their money where their mouths are. By pouring it into the region.

Before you go, has the CCP actually have success in integrating previously hostile minorities into mainstream society? Yeah they have actually. Which is why they most probably believe they can do it again.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by madd0ct0r »

mr friendly guy wrote: c. The long term plan is to develop the region and increase standard of living. Its based on the belief that extremism would die down (if not disappear) with the event of increasing living standards. So expect them to put their money where their mouths are. By pouring it into the region.

Just to extend on that - if they develop the area very quickly, it will also attract immigration from outside the area, effectively diluting the Uigher as well as creating a popualtion resistant to disrupting the status quo economically.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Thanas »

If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by madd0ct0r »

I've seen plenty of cases (mostly realted to tibet) of Chinese policy being called cultural imperialism /ethnic cleansing. Describing a mechanism dosen't mean I approve of it.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7956
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by ray245 »

Thanas wrote:If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
The mass migration of Han Chinese into Manchuria comes to mind. It was one of the biggest mass migration in modern history, and all but wiping out the traditional Manchurian culture. Mass migration/settlement can still occur with or without any government policies. Just look at the failure of the hukou system in keeping people from migrating within China.

Although given that freedom of movement is considered a human right, I'm not sure if it is morally right for a country to curtail in order to safe local culture. One solution would be reinforcing local cultures and assimilate migrants from other province into the local culture, but that might be problematic for a country trying to prevent itself from splitting apart.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by mr friendly guy »

Ralin wrote: You seem to be under the impression that it has ever at any time occurred to the Chinese government (or public at large) to be sensitive to the culture of people who are not Han Chinese and I don't think this is an accurate belief.
Yeah totally insensitive jerks they are. Wasting their tax payers dollars setting up bilingual schools, promoting ethnic minority culture overseas, helping to develop entire written scripts for ethnic minorities with spoken languages only, putting them on television shows promoting their culture, trying to revive endangered languages of their minorities etc.

Unless you're focussing on the connotation rather than the denotation of the word sensitive, the evidence would suggest they are. This is evidenced by the resources they put into preserving minority culture.
Uighur unrest poses no threat to the Chinese government or anyone else who doesn't happen to be standing nearby when the riots/bombs/etc go off, and those people also probably won't be anyone the government especially cares about.
Okaaaay. Lets try this on for size.

Muslim terrorism unrest poses no threat to the AmericanBritish government. Far better to crack down hard than to set the precedent for overseas that protesting and defiance can get them accommodations.

I think people would find the concept that a government shouldn't act against terrorism to protect its citizens because it doesn't quite threaten directly the government is bullshit.

I also find it hilarious how you try to handwave away those victims of terrorism by saying it poses no threat, unless you just happen to be nearby. Yeah I guess those people waiting in the train station at Kunming train station just happened to be standing nearby so tough shit right?

BTW - your last statement about the government not caring is unfalsifiable. Because even if they do nothing you will say, "see they don't care." If they do bring the perpetrators to justice you will just say they are doing it to maintain their legitimacy and making themselves look good. Which is most probably why you use as a rhetorical attempt to poison the well.
Far better to crack down hard than to set the precedent for other minorities that protesting and defiance can get them accommodations.
Well.... they did compromise in Wukan so in some cases protesting does get results. You remember that thread, because you kind of participated in that one.

Increased radicalization just means that there will be less bleating abroad about human rights and shit when they crack down even harder.
That's the only thing you said that makes sense. Congrats.
Also I think you're wrong in believing that China has lots of Uighur experts on hand. Why the hell would they? You're not going to make money that way.
I am going to hazard a guess that he is referring to experts on sociology or terrorism when he says that cracking down will lead to more resentment, rather than Uyghur experts per se. Because only Uyghurs will get angry when you restrict liberties and engage in racial profiling.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by mr friendly guy »

Thanas wrote:If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
Just for interest, which part of China.

Before you say Tibet - Tibetans outnumber Han Chinese in the TAR several times over. Unless you count the disputed territories between the TGIE and the Chinese government.
If you say Xinjiang, Uyghurs still outnumber Han Chinese.
If you say Manchuria, the Manchus were already a minority before the formation of the PRC as evidenced by census of the Japanese puppet state Manchuko. So its unfair to blame the modern government for what occurred during the Qing dynasty.

At best you might be able to say Inner Mongolia. Other ethnic minority regions already had Han migration before the PRC was even formed.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Thanas »

mr friendly guy wrote:
Thanas wrote:If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
Just for interest, which part of China.

Before you say Tibet - Tibetans outnumber Han Chinese in the TAR several times over. Unless you count the disputed territories between the TGIE and the Chinese government.
Of course, but the rate of immigration has increased a lot. Monasteries have been closed, monks thrown out and all important business is held by chinese.
If you say Xinjiang, Uyghurs still outnumber Han Chinese.
If you say Manchuria, the Manchus were already a minority before the formation of the PRC as evidenced by census of the Japanese puppet state Manchuko. So its unfair to blame the modern government for what occurred during the Qing dynasty.

At best you might be able to say Inner Mongolia. Other ethnic minority regions already had Han migration before the PRC was even formed.
Like in Poland, it will be a gradual process. Increased immigration is just one part of it, the clampdown on local culture is another. Look, to anybody who has even read about the policies of forced polish integration by Germany And Austria this is all sickeningly familiar.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
But if a nation used such policies a few hundred years before, it should then keep the results of ethnic colonization forever (Northern Ireland, Russian Far East, etc.), right?

Or maybe you forgot how millions of Germans were expunged from Eastern Europe? That was way more severe than simply flooding the place with settlers without actually expunging the minority.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by mr friendly guy »

Thanas wrote: Of course, but the rate of immigration has increased a lot. Monasteries have been closed, monks thrown out and all important business is held by chinese.
I doubt the monks will have the numbers to sustain monasteries ever since China stopped them forcibly recruiting young boys.

Of course all the businesses are held by Chinese. Every citizen is Chinese. Oh I see. You meant Han Chinese as opposed to <insert ethnic minority here> Chinese. You are framing the argument as if China and its citizens are not a nation state and that all only certain people living there are Chinese citizens.

If we talk about important businesses, we have to ask why aren't the ethnic minorities as successful in Tibet? I suspect is a combination of China's western regions having less education (because its poorer) than central China and ultimately the rich coastal cities. Thus when migrants come from there, they have those advantages as well as language and contacts. Plus I have heard Chinese merchants are willing to play hardball with business as anyone who has ever had the unique experience of haggling with Chinese merchants can attest, whereas others may not be as willing or as skilled in this manner.

You seem to be implying that their business dominance its part of a plan to maintain control over the region. I could also point out that if an ethnic minority makes it in the business world (lets say Rebeya Kadeer) China doesn't go "oh shit, an ethnic minority is in a dominant position, what do we do," they go" look our ethnic policies are working."

If I am wrong about your position I will retract the statement.

Like in Poland, it will be a gradual process. Increased immigration is just one part of it, the clampdown on local culture is another. Look, to anybody who has even read about the policies of forced polish integration by Germany And Austria this is all sickeningly familiar.
I am not familiar with that part of history so I can't comment.

However there is strong evidence that China promotes the local culture in various way even of ethnic groups which it is perceived to have disputes with.

I also disagree with the ethnic cleansing tag. I thought for ethnic cleansing to happen the PRC must
a) kill these people (the population numbers are increasing) or
b) force them out of these areas (which is not happening).

That sort of shit that went on during the dissolution of Yugoslavia, which isn't happening in China.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4567
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Ralin »

Pubu Cering, a Chinese Tibetologist who headed the delegation, said Tibet has made great achievements in economic and social development, which reflect the requirements of social advancement and the fundamental wishes of the Tibetan people.
Tibetans now enjoy full freedom of religious beliefs and the Chinese government respects and protects the religious freedom of Tibetans in accordance with the law, he said
Yeaaaah.
Most languages have written scripts. Thus is not a great achievement. Fairly sure Tibetan, Mongolian, et al already had written scripts quite independent of the benevolence of the Chinese government. Mongolian has had, like...what, at least three?
putting them on television shows promoting their culture,
Dunno what specific shows you're talking about, but my experience is that Chinese presentations of minority culture tends to take the form of a very patronizing "Look at the minorities in their colorful clothes! They love to sing and dance!"

trying to
revive endangered languages of their minorities etc.

Unless you're focussing on the connotation rather than the denotation of the word sensitive, the evidence would suggest they are. This is evidenced by the resources they put into preserving minority culture.
After TEN GODDAMN YEARS of actively promoting Manchu culture this school has one teacher capable of teaching Manchu language! That's less effort than fucking America puts into promoting Cajun French!

More when I'm not on my phone
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by Thanas »

Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
But if a nation used such policies a few hundred years before, it should then keep the results of ethnic colonization forever (Northern Ireland, Russian Far East, etc.), right?
That bad things are irreversible now without massive damages does not mean one should stop bad things from happening right now. Or do you think there is some magic scorecard like "well, you oppressed the irish hundreds of years ago, so China gets to oppress others now"?

mr friendly guy wrote:
Thanas wrote: Of course, but the rate of immigration has increased a lot. Monasteries have been closed, monks thrown out and all important business is held by chinese.
I doubt the monks will have the numbers to sustain monasteries ever since China stopped them forcibly recruiting young boys.
Oh yeah, that is a nice way to cloak the repressions like "you might get fired for being a member of religion X" and "your property might be seized and your monastery turned into a museum without your consent." Don't try to paint it as a positive by leaving out the negative parts of the policies of China.
Of course all the businesses are held by Chinese. Every citizen is Chinese.
Every Pole between 1800-1918 was a Russian, Austrian or Prussian citizen. :roll:
If we talk about important businesses, we have to ask why aren't the ethnic minorities as successful in Tibet? I suspect is a combination of China's western regions having less education (because its poorer) than central China and ultimately the rich coastal cities. Thus when migrants come from there, they have those advantages as well as language and contacts. Plus I have heard Chinese merchants are willing to play hardball with business as anyone who has ever had the unique experience of haggling with Chinese merchants can attest, whereas others may not be as willing or as skilled in this manner.
See, this is pretty much the same shit you heard from Prussians to explain why their farmers just seemed to do much better than Polish farmers while both were working the Polish soil.
You seem to be implying that their business dominance its part of a plan to maintain control over the region.
When all modes of transport are owned by Han Chinese, when all the big businesses are Han chinese and when the monasteries are turned into museums led by Han Chinese then you might just think this is a bit lopsided.
I could also point out that if an ethnic minority makes it in the business world (lets say Rebeya Kadeer) China doesn't go "oh shit, an ethnic minority is in a dominant position, what do we do," they go" look our ethnic policies are working."
Yeah, there were some poles as well under Prussia who had success. Doesn't mean there wasn't a position of clearly favoring one ethnicity over the other.
Like in Poland, it will be a gradual process. Increased immigration is just one part of it, the clampdown on local culture is another. Look, to anybody who has even read about the policies of forced polish integration by Germany And Austria this is all sickeningly familiar.
I am not familiar with that part of history so I can't comment.
Fine by me, but don't object when people call it a crime then.
I also disagree with the ethnic cleansing tag. I thought for ethnic cleansing to happen the PRC must
a) kill these people (the population numbers are increasing) or
b) force them out of these areas (which is not happening).

That sort of shit that went on during the dissolution of Yugoslavia, which isn't happening in China.
Ethnic cleansing of an area can also be done by colonisation which eventually marginalises the people living there. It can also be done to get a persistent foothold there.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
K. A. Pital
Glamorous Commie
Posts: 20813
Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
Location: Elysium

Re: China intensifies oppression of minority

Post by K. A. Pital »

Thanas wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
Thanas wrote:If any other nation would be using the settlement policies china does it would at best be cultural imperialism and more likely be called ethnic cleansing, aka move colonists into areas where minorities live until they outnumber the minority. Then claim that because colonists are now the majority you can do fun stuff like dismantle the local culture. Whether that is beneficial to the minority is not the point.
But if a nation used such policies a few hundred years before, it should then keep the results of ethnic colonization forever (Northern Ireland, Russian Far East, etc.), right?
That bad things are irreversible now without massive damages does not mean one should stop bad things from happening right now. Or do you think there is some magic scorecard like "well, you oppressed the irish hundreds of years ago, so China gets to oppress others now"?
So, when will the Germans start demanding to right a more recent wrong, when they were massively expunged from Eastern Europe?

And frankly, are you not in favor of dismantling the hukou? You should well know that the dismantling of the mandatory residence registration ongoing in China will not stop the internal migration flows but in fact will accelerate them.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...

...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
Post Reply