Star Wars: Rebels

[NecronLord]

I love the bitching whenever the stormtroopers are buffoons. It's not a new depiction,

It sure fucking is.

No it's not new, I have seen dozens of EU products where they have been depicted as being unable to reliably hit a target many times, to the point that Jedi Outcast even had one bitching about how hard it is to see in his helmet, and that and various games have modelled picking up an E-11 as reducing your accuracy over snap firing a pistol. It is not overly present in the original films, but in no way is it new to licensed star wars media.

Stormtroopers are death dealing, family burning, rebel killing stormtroopers of doom in the OT.

You don't need to be an excellent soldier to kill an elderly couple. This does not contradict the SW rebels interpretation of them.

The scene of them killing rebels, is however an example of their buffoonery in ANH; they enter a defended corridor in single file and get shot down. Compare the Tantive IV boarding action to a comparable situation in another film, say, the hawkmen in Flash Gordon boarding War Rocket Ajax, and you will see the stormtroopers are substantially inferior in tactics. Where the hawkmen lead with grenades an are constantly on the move, and have far higher shot-proficiency, the stormtroopers are stumbling over one another getting killed in the breach because they have forgotten to use or bring any explosives.

The 'too accurate for sandpeople' remark is of course, proven to be Obi Wan lying again, by the prequels, where we see a sandperson sniper hit a jet-powered racecar in the desert. They are superb, exceptional, shots who can damage small fast vehicles going at maximum speed, when they come out of a tunnel and are turning. Obi Wan is wrong to say sandpeople can't hit things accurately we see them pull off a shot we never see a clone or stormtrooper manage, the only comparable shot in the films to sandpeople is Zam Wessel. Most likely Obi Wan is some manner of racist, who does not believe Sand People are capable of proficient shooting, he is evidently wrong though. Don't believe me, watch the tuskens shooting at 6m 30s here.



Nor do they actually do anything very impressive at Hoth, sure, they win, and rebels die, but they don't actually do anything that contradicts the SW: Rebels interpretation of them either; they miss plenty of times at Hoth too.

TPM aside, though, they are not ultra competent in the movies, nor are they ultra-stupid, they're not as bad as in Rebels but then, these guys in Rebels are also backwater occupying forces, while the guys in ANH are Darth Vader's personal badboys, and even they are very foolish.

On the other hand, the notion that they're bad shots, or buffoons, is well entrenched in various SW media. I suppose it might be new to you if you've not seen anything since Return of the Jedi, and avoided the EU like the plague, but it's far from new. And they're not all that good (they are not as good at soldiering as the Hawkmen in Flash Gordon, for instance) in the films.

[NecronLord]

In ANH, they murder (offscreen, of course) two ordinary citizens

A terrifying display of military proficiency that

and burn their house AND destroy a Jawa vehicle, a big honking tank-like apparatus.

Tank-like. What. It's large and metal, yes, there's no indication it's a combat vehicle at all though.

We actually see them first time when they board Tantive IV and considering that they come out of a tiny doorway to be greeted with a hailstorm of blaster fire, they do pretty good, forcing the defenders to retreat almost immediately and suffering only few casualties.

As above, that's only impressive if you think grenades don't exist. In no way is this a military tour-de-force. People are so used to defending the Stormtroopers - and they're not really that bad either, by TV standards at least - that they've gotten the impression that this is an epic victory. To be clear Dad's Army would do better against the rebels, as they understand that room clearance drill begins with throwing grenades, and then follows with rapid fire.

On Death Star they are usually taken by surprise - and the moment that element is lost, our heroes ran like hell before stormtroopers. In ESB they rmain professional soldiers and once again only an element of surprise makes them suffer any serious losses on-screen: witness Han's use of the Falcon's hidden blaster against the snowtroopers who were setting up a weapons platform and Lando's sudden betrayal at the Cloud City. Just about the only humorous stormtrooper moments are with Ewoks overtaking them (but even then stormtroopers are basically throwing them around like ragdolls once they get their affairs in order), Obi-Wan using a Jedi mind trick on the stormtrooper leader in Mos Eisley and Han calling the two stormtroopers in Death Star hangar bay ("Could ya give a hand with this?").

This is also an example of soul-searing, blistering incompetence, but in fairness to the Stormtroopers, it's Captain Khurgee who orders the whole squad to leave, leaving two unarmed scanner-men to search the inside of the Falcon alone and two guys at the bottom of the ramp; facing away from the criminal ship. It's not like those troopers had to be elsewhere, or are we supposed to believe the Death Star is so critically undermanned that they can't spare a platoon to attend to a matter that Darth Vader personally ordered investigated. This is certainly an example of military sloppiness - we see hordes of troopers patrolling the corridors, it's not like there's a shortage - but it's Khurgee, not the troopers there.

They are very much threatening, but ultimately just mooks and thugs who are always getting overrun by the story's heroes.

Just like in Star Wars Rebels, aye.

I find it strange that usually the EU has kept stormtroopers pretty awesome, actually: they are not portrayed as buffoons, simply very efficient soldiers who just usually get outclassed by ridiculous character shields (be they justified - Luke's a fully trained Jedi and several other SW heroes are top-notch secret agents, commandoes, soldiers or outlaws with more experience than they can remembeer). Just about the only silly stormtroopers I can think of in the old EU are those in Children of the Jedi - and they are brainwashed Gamorreans and other lunatics whom the superweapon of the day thought were ACTUAL stormtroopers, since its AI was crappy as all hell. It's the fans, not the movies or the EU even, which has downgraded stormtroopers.

The EU varies wildly, anything they write about the E-11 is generally lampshading how bad a gun it is.

On the other hand, the droids in Clone Wars are much much worse than the droids in the actual films (yes really), so again, what did you expect?

[applejack]

I think Necron Lord is gonna like this... lol!


I really like the musical homage to Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Also, a couple of stormtroopers survive yet another close explosion that destroys a TIE Fighter.

[Havok]

I love the bitching whenever the stormtroopers are buffoons. It's not a new depiction,

It sure fucking is.

No it's not new, I have seen dozens of EU products where they have been depicted as being unable to reliably hit a target many times, to the point that Jedi Outcast even had one bitching about how hard it is to see in his helmet, and that and various games have modelled picking up an E-11 as reducing your accuracy over snap firing a pistol. It is not overly present in the original films, but in no way is it new to licensed star wars media.

Hence my point about it being a brain bug picked up by stupid people. Thanks for contributing.

Stormtroopers are death dealing, family burning, rebel killing stormtroopers of doom in the OT.

You don't need to be an excellent soldier to kill an elderly couple. This does not contradict the SW rebels interpretation of them.

The scene of them killing rebels, is however an example of their buffoonery in ANH; they enter a defended corridor in single file and get shot down. Compare the Tantive IV boarding action to a comparable situation in another film, say, the hawkmen in Flash Gordon boarding War Rocket Ajax, and you will see the stormtroopers are substantially inferior in tactics. Where the hawkmen lead with grenades an are constantly on the move, and have far higher shot-proficiency, the stormtroopers are stumbling over one another getting killed in the breach because they have forgotten to use or bring any explosives.

And yet they still take the ship. Compare it to the landing at D-Day... how many soldiers get wiped out getting off the amphibious landers? The stormtroopers obeyed orders and took their objective. Again, keep on contributing.

The 'too accurate for sandpeople' remark is of course, proven to be Obi Wan lying again, by the prequels, where we see a sandperson sniper hit a jet-powered racecar in the desert. They are superb, exceptional, shots who can damage small fast vehicles going at maximum speed, when they come out of a tunnel and are turning. Obi Wan is wrong to say sandpeople can't hit things accurately we see them pull off a shot we never see a clone or stormtrooper manage, the only comparable shot in the films to sandpeople is Zam Wessel. Most likely Obi Wan is some manner of racist, who does not believe Sand People are capable of proficient shooting, he is evidently wrong though. Don't believe me, watch the tuskens shooting at 6m 30s here.

Let us try not to cherry pick and inaccurately quote and describe scenes shall we?

And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise.

He isn't talking about the literal accuracy of the shots, but the actual placement and knowing how exactly to disable the crawler and you get that when, as I said, you don't cherry pick the quote to make your own argument.

In that clip the Tusken can hit what he is aiming at. You can't however say though that he hit exactly the part needed to destroy the pod especially since it took a few shots and it's a giant exposed fucking engine You don't need to be precise. They hit nothing of consequence on Anakin's pod. And showing a couple Tuskens that are good at shooting doesn't prove that they are all crack shots, not that that's what Obi-Wan was even referring to.

Nor do they actually do anything very impressive at Hoth, sure, they win, and rebels die, but they don't actually do anything that contradicts the SW: Rebels interpretation of them either; they miss plenty of times at Hoth too.

What were they supposed to do? Use their super powers? They are SOLDIERS. They over ran the enemy position and took their base. And newsflash, there is a reason that soldiers get lots of bullets and clips to hold them. There is no one to one kill ratio in war. Geezuz.

TPM aside, though, they are not ultra competent in the movies, nor are they ultra-stupid, they're not as bad as in Rebels but then, these guys in Rebels are also backwater occupying forces, while the guys in ANH are Darth Vader's personal badboys, and even they are very foolish.

Christ. You are just full of brainbugs. You think Vader is hand picking Stormtroopers? It's all numbers and aptitude tests and qualifying and ratings. Just like in any military. But please show me in any of the movies where Stormtroopers are doing anything "very foolish".

On the other hand, the notion that they're bad shots, or buffoons, is well entrenched in various SW media. I suppose it might be new to you if you've not seen anything since Return of the Jedi, and avoided the EU like the plague, but it's far from new. And they're not all that good (they are not as good at soldiering as the Hawkmen in Flash Gordon, for instance) in the films.

Yes, the "notion", which, and let me just quote myself here...

is a brainbug planted by those that can't comprehend what they see on screen and because a couple of them got tricked by one of the greatest Jedi Masters in fucking history.

[RogueIce]

What Rebels seems to be doing is portraying the stormtroopers as the 'standard' infantry of the Empire. Which, to be fair, is pretty much what the OT did, and even consistent with a large chunk of the EU - IIRC only Zahn, some of the comics and the WEG RPG material really had a separate Imperial Army and played up Stormtroopers as some form of separate elite branch. It also fits with how the Clones in TCW seemed to be pretty much the Republic's fighting force, even crewing and in a couple cases commanding their capital ships, though obviously the Empire has gone on to regular recruitment by now.

Which incidentally allows for both explanations to work. If stormtroopers are just the regular Imperial ground forces, that certainly gives wide latitude to showcasing various levels of competency. Those assigned to the Death Star or crewing around with Darth Vader (or a part of the Emperor's "finest troops" on Endor) are probably going to be better than, as mentioned, local troopers on a backwater world. The difference between, say, a battle-hardened and experienced unit versus a rear area security platoon.

[NecronLord]

And yet they still take the ship. Compare it to the landing at D-Day... how many soldiers get wiped out getting off the amphibious landers? The stormtroopers obeyed orders and took their objective. Again, keep on contributing.

Are you suggesting that the allies just rolled up on the beach without using explosive weapons on the enemy positions first? Or that they used tactics There was a massive preliminary bombardment for D-day, using dozens of ships and their batteries, and air wings of RAF, USAF, Free French Fliers, Free Poles, etc etc.

You want a WW2 example of how to take a bunker or defended entryway; sure thing. Let's look at a famous WW2 training film:


5m 18s

When you've got your enemy trapped in a dugout, don't rush in after him - that's what they're waitin' for, toss in a grenade and let them divide it!"

Sure, it certainly says you then have to take the position (obviously) but it specifically cautions against doing what the stormtroopers do, rushing into a dugout where they're waiting for you.

The correct procedure (as taught to WW2 allied troops) for storming a defended doorway is to throw in a grenade first, following up with flamethrowers if available - we see Stormtroopers fail to do this twice in ANH - the second time in the detention bay, though in that case one might imagine that the infamous 'keep missing them so they escape' order had been given.

And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only imperial stormtroopers are so precise.

He isn't talking about the literal accuracy of the shots, but the actual placement and knowing how exactly to disable the crawler and you get that when, as I said, you don't cherry pick the quote to make your own argument.

Uhuh. Well, I'll grant it's an interpretation that's new to me, and fits the evidence, so yeah, okay, he was talking about them knowing where to shoot a vehicle to disable it, that is an example of skill, yes, I'll grant that.

In that clip the Tusken can hit what he is aiming at. You can't however say though that he hit exactly the part needed to destroy the pod especially since it took a few shots and it's a giant exposed fucking engine You don't need to be precise. They hit nothing of consequence on Anakin's pod. And showing a couple Tuskens that are good at shooting doesn't prove that they are all crack shots, not that that's what Obi-Wan was even referring to.

Sure it does, Obi Wan is saying 'this is too good for tuskens' when we see groups of tusken raiders with remarkable accuracy - seriously, those things go at up to 800 km/h or more (Ep 1 ICS) and while they'd have to slow for a turn, that's still remarkable by any measure and better than any shooting we see from stormtroopers or rebel heroes.

What were they supposed to do? Use their super powers? They are SOLDIERS. They over ran the enemy position and took their base. And newsflash, there is a reason that soldiers get lots of bullets and clips to hold them. There is no one to one kill ratio in war. Geezuz.

Yes. Correct. Bang on. Hit the nail on the head. In real wars, ammunition expended per kill can hit 1000 shots per victim.

The thing is, that applies to the stormtroopers you're complaining about in Star Wars Rebels, too. They're going to miss, and that's 100% realistic and accurate, and complaining that they miss shows that you expect unrealistic proficiency from them.

Christ. You are just full of brainbugs. You think Vader is hand picking Stormtroopers? It's all numbers and aptitude tests and qualifying and ratings. Just like in any military.

I said 'personal badboys' IE they are aboard his personal flagship and presumably means he picks the best regiments. The guys at Endor are explicitly said to be the best troops. At no point did I say they were hand picked.

But please show me in any of the movies where Stormtroopers are doing anything "very foolish".

K.

When you've got your enemy trapped in a dugout, don't rush in after him - that's what they're waitin' for, toss in a grenade and let them divide it!"

Yes, the "notion", which, and let me just quote myself here...

is a brainbug planted by those that can't comprehend what they see on screen and because a couple of them got tricked by one of the greatest Jedi Masters in fucking history.

And, see above, what do you expect from rebels? So far what we've seen is that they miss the main characters - by your own admission that is realistic, lots of very good soldiers, even elite ones, I would go so far as to say every soldier, with the possible exception of Lyudmila Pavlichenko, has missed a great number of shots.

Turn it around, what do they do in Rebels that is so unrealistic or foolish?

[NecronLord]

I'm still bugged by this, I can't really stress how important proper use of grenades is for infantry to attacking a prepared position. Put it another way, you know the Queen of England's customary guards, the Coldstream Guards, march to a tune called 'British Grenadiers' it's a period piece, with lyrics dating back to the 1750s at least.

Whene'er we are commanded to storm the palisades
Our leaders march with fuses, and we with hand grenades.
We throw them from the glacis, about the enemies' ears.
Sing tow, row, row, row, row, row, the British Grenadiers.

IE "Whenever we're commanded to attack palisades, we throw grenades."

Any infantry force that attacks a fixed position and does not use grenades (especially as they have them!) is incompetent.

Let's look at a real example of a British University OTC



In this one they enter without a grenade, and promptly get told off by the instructor for, you guessed it, not using a grenade before entering an enemy structure. Because that is what you do.

Let's see some Brits doing it right.



Soldier throws grenade at 0:22 before entering.

And in case it seems to be just a British thing that the correct procedure before entering a hostile building is to lob a grenade in, Irish Defence Forces

But let's look at a sci-fi example, the much maligned jaffa show how you deal with a door with armed men on the other side:



Yeah. That. If the Stormtroopers had used one of those (and they have equivalents in EU works) they would have taken no casualties.

[Havok]

Are there ever ANY grenades in the OT?
And y'know call me crazy, but using an explosive device in a corridor that exposes into space or back into your own airlock/ship doesn't seem all that bright.

[NecronLord]

There was indeed, the thermal detonator we see Leia use. Not counting the ones they have on their backs, though whether that was intended during filming is open to question, but certainly EU evidence, and ICS and so on, has that each trooper is carrying a Thermal Detonator.

They're stormtroopers, they can breathe in space and have magnetic boots. Blowing a hole in the hull would only help them win faster. As would say, using gas.

And of course, if you want them alive there are always flash-bangs, as shown in a sci-fi example in the jaffa clip. That is literally what flashbangs are for. And flamethrowers are also less dangerous to the ship than explosives if that's your concern.

[NecronLord]

I think Necron Lord is gonna like this... lol!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not impressed by this, or pleased, I just find it irritating people are so acting like it's an unprecedented atrocity, as I said, 'what do you expect' the stormtroopers rarely had much effort put into their depiction as a fighting force (the design of their equipment is really cool and very convincing, IMO, camo aside, and of course the prequels sometimes gave them decent camo) in terms of professional behaviours, and I can't see this coming in the cartoon, like I said, even the prequels' droids are sillier in Clone Wars - not that they're that great to start with in many cases.

I, as much as anyone, believe in the 'you can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies' approach to villain mooks; it's why I'm a big partisan of the 1980 Flash Gordon; the villains are actually exceedingly capable, bright costumes aside, at one point the general has some of the heroes imprisoned, blindfolded, chained to the wall, in a cell with a guard outside, with a camera in it going directly to her HQ with full audio pickup, which makes it much more impressive that they get out than if they'd just been locked in a generic cell, for instance.

But I never imagined Rebels was going to have that kind of a showing for the Empire, at least for the mooks.

[Havok]

There was indeed, the thermal detonator we see Leia use. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Baradium ... _detonator

Noooo, the thermal detonator we see Leia HOLD. We have no idea what it actually does, but based on the reaction of every badass bounty hunter and criminal in Jabba's palace, it's a little more worrisome than a regular grenade.

Not counting the ones they have on their backs, though whether that was intended during filming is open to question, but certainly EU evidence, and ICS and so on, has that each trooper is carrying a Thermal Detonator.

Which, even taking EU nonsense into account, they don't use for a reason. Why you assume that reason is "Hur hur they're buffoons!" is beyond me.

They're stormtroopers, they can breathe in space and have magnetic boots.

Holy crap, something we sorta see evidence of in the ACTUAL movies. Yet, TIE and AT-AT pilots clearly have external breathing apparatuses. Snowtroopers have their own gear, Scouttroopers their own. The Stormtrooper uniform obviously has different configurations. And since we see the standard Stormtrooper helmets come off just like a loose fitting motorcycle helmet, there is no reason to think they are air tight.

Blowing a hole in the hull would only help them win faster. As would say, using gas.

Except not, because winning in this aspect is finding out where the Death Star plans are. Spacing the crew isn't going to help very much with that.

But, hey, why pay attention to the actual movie. Just read the EU and yell "HUR HUR STORMTROOPERS ARE DUMB!"

And of course, if you want them alive there are always flash-bangs, as shown in a sci-fi example in the jaffa clip. That is literally what flashbangs are for. And flamethrowers are also less dangerous to the ship than explosives if that's your concern.

Again, more things we just assume exist or are effective. Yet they aren't using them.

[NecronLord]

Noooo, the thermal detonator we see Leia HOLD. We have no idea what it actually does, but based on the reaction of every badass bounty hunter and criminal in Jabba's palace, it's a little more worrisome than a regular grenade.

No it's not. The wounding radius of real-life grenades has been up to 40m - IE it will reliably incapacitate everyone in a sphere 80m across - though most are smaller because you want to be able to throw it and not wound yourself. Jabba's lair was not that wide. There are RL grenades that would be a lethal threat to everyone in the room.

Real grenades are very powerful, and not the tiny squibs you typically see on TV. In no way are the criminals' reactions inconsistant with that being a grenade.

What grenades don't do, is go through walls. And as mentioned, less-lethal grenades optimal to this situation exist both IRL and in the Star Wars canon

Which, even taking EU nonsense into account, they don't use for a reason. Why you assume that reason is "Hur hur they're buffoons!" is beyond me.

What is that reason?

Holy crap, something we sorta see evidence of in the ACTUAL movies. Yet, TIE and AT-AT pilots clearly have external breathing apparatuses. Snowtroopers have their own gear, Scouttroopers their own. The Stormtrooper uniform obviously has different configurations. And since we see the standard Stormtrooper helmets come off just like a loose fitting motorcycle helmet, there is no reason to think they are air tight.

Except not, because winning in this aspect is finding out where the Death Star plans are. Spacing the crew isn't going to help very much with that.

But, hey, why pay attention to the actual movie. Just read the EU and yell "HUR HUR STORMTROOPERS ARE DUMB!"

See above, Less-lethal grenades exist, even if you assume that it would blow a hole in the ship and that that would be a major problem (it is a brainbug itself that a small hole in a large ship would be a major problem, depressurizing a 100m ship though even a 1m wide hole will take a long time.)

Again, more things we just assume exist or are effective. Yet they aren't using them.

Flamethrowers assuredly exist, they are shown in the Clone Wars cartoon, which is canon. Not to mention that Jango has one on his wrist. I am not certain of stun grenades being in the Clone Wars cartoon, but really, if they don't exist (and they do in the EU, as do blinding grenades) it is frankly embarrassing as they have both grenades, and stun weapons.

As for the priority of taking people alive; there's only one person they take for questioning beyond a quick neck-stretching by Vader, and that's Leia, they don't even bother setting to stun before shooting the troopers.

[Batman]

How exactly does blowing a hole in the hull automatically mean spacing the crew? Just make sure it's not a big hole. Atmosphere leaves, the defenders pass out, your team wins. Or, as NL said, use gas. Blow hole into Tantive IV, throw in nonlethal gas grenade, wait, take ship with minimal to zero casualties. Except they don't do that.

The problem as I see it is the EU, which made everybody in the white and black armour a Stormtrooper (which is reasonably supported by the movies) and made Stormtroopers elite (which the movies definitely didn't). There were people in Stormtrooper armour everywhere on the DS1 in ANH. If Stormtroopers are oh so elite why the hell are they apparently making up 100% of the Imperial infantry we see?

[Havok]

Holy crap, something we sorta see evidence of in the ACTUAL movies. Yet, TIE and AT-AT pilots clearly have external breathing apparatuses. Snowtroopers have their own gear, Scouttroopers their own. The Stormtrooper uniform obviously has different configurations. And since we see the standard Stormtrooper helmets come off just like a loose fitting motorcycle helmet, there is no reason to think they are air tight.

Hey thanks for posting that, it's the EXACT scene I was thinking of. I wonder what those GIANT backpacks are for that we ONLY see the Stormtroopers standing outside in space are for? Hmmmm, I wonder?

Except not, because winning in this aspect is finding out where the Death Star plans are. Spacing the crew isn't going to help very much with that.

But, hey, why pay attention to the actual movie. Just read the EU and yell "HUR HUR STORMTROOPERS ARE DUMB!"

See above, Less-lethal grenades exist, even if you assume that it would blow a hole in the ship and that that would be a major problem (it is a brainbug itself that a small hole in a large ship would be a major problem, depressurizing a 100m ship though even a 1m wide hole will take a long time.)

Again, more things we just assume exist or are effective. Yet they aren't using them.

Flamethrowers assuredly exist, they are shown in the Clone Wars cartoon, which is canon. Not to mention that Jango has one on his wrist. I am not certain of stun grenades being in the Clone Wars cartoon, but really, if they don't exist (and they do in the EU, as do blinding grenades) it is frankly embarrassing as they have both grenades, and stun weapons.

As for the priority of taking people alive; there's only one person they take for questioning beyond a quick neck-stretching by Vader, and that's Leia, they don't even bother setting to stun before shooting the troopers.

And there you go. They don't want to accidentally frag someone important. With just blasters they can at least make the determination on who to blast and who to stun, which they did, when they chose to stun Leia. You just answered all your own questions sport. Good job.

[NecronLord]

Havok, Let's get this straight, please confirm.

You believe that stormtroopers are not wearing airtight combat gear (that the helmet is basically a bike helmet) and that the Galactic Empire has not invented the flashbang, correct?

[NecronLord]

How exactly does blowing a hole in the hull automatically mean spacing the crew? Just make sure it's not a big hole. Atmosphere leaves, the defenders pass out, your team wins. Or, as NL said, use gas. Blow hole into Tantive IV, throw in nonlethal gas grenade, wait, take ship with minimal to zero casualties. Except they don't do that.

The problem as I see it is the EU, which made everybody in the white and black armour a Stormtrooper (which is reasonably supported by the movies) and made Stormtroopers elite (which the movies definitely didn't). There were people in Stormtrooper armour everywhere on the DS1 in ANH. If Stormtroopers are oh so elite why the hell are they apparently making up 100% of the Imperial infantry we see?

In fairness, we do see naval security guys now and then on the Excecutor, and possibly on the death star and if you were to take a picture of HMS Ocean a lot of the embarked soldiers would be Royal Marine Commandos too.

Though I do prefer Stormtroopers being ubiquitous, and any other non-hardshell ground units being the GE equivalent of the National Guard or something. But their being everywhere on the ships we see doesn't disprove an 'Imperial Army.'

[Havok]

Havok, Let's get this straight, please confirm.

You believe that stormtroopers are not wearing airtight combat gear (that the helmet is basically a bike helmet) and that the Galactic Empire has not invented the flashbang, correct?

Don't be daft. I know that may be hard for you.

My point is that instead of saying, "OMG they are soooo stupid for not using XYZ!!" I say, "There must be a logical reason they aren't using XYZ, because that would make sense.".
I start from the standpoint that these guys have been doing this for a long fucking time so when we see the preeminent military force doing it a certain way, they have their reasons. Not that they are complete morons that have never figured it out.

As for the Stormtrooper armor, I've already stated what I think about that. I don't dispute that there is airtight Stormtrooper armor, I simply dispute that every single Stormtrooper we see is wearing it. Especially given that we actually see different versions of it in different environments. But nice try trying to twist my words.

[NecronLord]

Except military science is like geometry. It has a logic to it all of its own, and the author can't easily avoid the consequences of it. Do you deny that a flashbang grenade of some sort would be an effective weapon that would reduce stormtrooper casualties in this situation?

[Irbis]

Compare the Tantive IV boarding action to a comparable situation in another film, say, the hawkmen in Flash Gordon boarding War Rocket Ajax, and you will see the stormtroopers are substantially inferior in tactics. Where the hawkmen lead with grenades an are constantly on the move, and have far higher shot-proficiency, the stormtroopers are stumbling over one another getting killed in the breach because they have forgotten to use or bring any explosives.

Can you provide clip with the scene?

The 'too accurate for sandpeople' remark is of course, proven to be Obi Wan lying again, by the prequels, where we see a sandperson sniper hit a jet-powered racecar in the desert. They are superb, exceptional, shots who can damage small fast vehicles going at maximum speed, when they come out of a tunnel and are turning.

Um, that is nothing difficult.

Really.

The pods might move fast, but that far away, it's just a matter of pressing button at right time. With a few attempts, like the Tusken do, any normal person will be able to hit. No, seriously, I can show you a dozen PC games where hitting close object is hard, but hitting far away one is just matter of pressing the button when target is say two widths from crosshair. It can be done, I suck at games and I can do it.

Nor do they actually do anything very impressive at Hoth, sure, they win, and rebels die, but they don't actually do anything that contradicts the SW: Rebels interpretation of them either; they miss plenty of times at Hoth too.

I can show you SAS promotional video where best UK commandos miss plenty of times knowing it's just a trial, at targets that don't hide or shoot back. And?

There was indeed, the thermal detonator we see Leia use. Not counting the ones they have on their backs, though whether that was intended during filming is open to question, but certainly EU evidence, and ICS and so on, has that each trooper is carrying a Thermal Detonator.

There is the pesky problem of TDs being miniature atom bombs. The exact same detonator Leia holds in RotJ vaporized huge skyscraper in Shadows of the Empire. That's why Jabba was afraid despite being on other end of the room. Attempt to use one of these would end up with total casualties on Stromtrooper side.

The problem with grenade is, full body armor, force field or being a droid might render it ineffective. That's why Stormtroopers seem to carry big caliber blasters as support weapons instead of much lighter automatic grenade launchers. They are just not effective.

Hell, Attack of the Clones, Jango fires rocket propelled grenades plenty of times and they never seem to kill or even wound anyone.

They're stormtroopers, they can breathe in space and have magnetic boots. Blowing a hole in the hull would only help them win faster. As would say, using gas.

Except, they can blow up hole in the hull. They demonstrated it by blowing entry door. Their objective, however, was capturing the ambassador/rebel officers (remember all the prisoners Vader interrogated?) and blowing holes in hulls would be total ineptitude destroying mission objectives.

And of course, if you want them alive there are always flash-bangs, as shown in a sci-fi example in the jaffa clip. That is literally what flashbangs are for. And flamethrowers are also less dangerous to the ship than explosives if that's your concern.

Um, wrong and wrong. Flashbangs don't work on battle droids and men in fully enclosed helmets. Like, you know, stormtroopers. Yes, rebels were relatively lightly armed but still, you're postulating weapon usage that in the movies should be totally obsolete and useless. It's like complaining Navy Seals don't carry swords or chainmails.

As for flamers, name one example in history boarding party using them. There are none. For the very simple reason fires on a ship are bitch to extinguish even without being in middle of firefight. That is without being on a spaceship where fire can produce all sorts of nasty chemicals, or explode fictionium generators or, you know, kill objectives.

[Havok]

Except military science is like geometry. It has a logic to it all of its own, and the author can't easily avoid the consequences of it. Do you deny that a flashbang grenade of some sort would be an effective weapon that would reduce stormtrooper casualties in this situation?

I'm going to just assume here that you aren't actually reading what I write and call it a day with you. Go back, read what I've said, then ask yourself why you would ask that question.

[NecronLord]

Can you provide clip with the scene?

I cannot. It is not however the topic. See RL military training videos and the stargate clip above for examples of higher proficiency.

Really.

The pods might move fast, but that far away, it's just a matter of pressing button at right time. With a few attempts, like the Tusken do, any normal person will be able to hit. No, seriously, I can show you a dozen PC games where hitting close object is hard, but hitting far away one is just matter of pressing the button when target is say two widths from crosshair. It can be done, I suck at games and I can do it.

Well I'm convinced. Your subjective evidence of how well you fared at a computer game is proof.

Can you show stormtroopers matching that shot?

I can show you SAS promotional video where best UK commandos miss plenty of times knowing it's just a trial, at targets that don't hide or shoot back. And?

And nothing, except that it's consistant with their appearance in SW Rebels.

There is the pesky problem of TDs being miniature atom bombs. The exact same detonator Leia holds in RotJ vaporized huge skyscraper in Shadows of the Empire. That's why Jabba was afraid despite being on other end of the room. Attempt to use one of these would end up with total casualties on Stromtrooper side.

Havok rejects EU material, which is where the 'atom bomb' thing is established. I'm fine with that, but if you accept EU material, every Stormtrooper is carrying a lower-class TD and many exist used in roles comparable to grenades, as do stun-energy, sonic grenades, gloop-grenades (!) and flashbangs.

The problem with grenade is, full body armor, force field or being a droid might render it ineffective. That's why Stormtroopers seem to carry big caliber blasters as support weapons instead of much lighter automatic grenade launchers. They are just not effective.

Stormtroopers also carry grenade launchers, as you accept EU evidence, they carry such weapons in various games. They also have seeker rail-charge launchers which fire a heat-seeking missile that could be shot around the corner. EU furnishes them with all the whizz bang toys imaginable.

Hell, Attack of the Clones, Jango fires rocket propelled grenades plenty of times and they never seem to kill or even wound anyone.

And so grenades will be useless in every situation including the one every RL military uses them for?

Except, they can blow up hole in the hull. They demonstrated it by blowing entry door. Their objective, however, was capturing the ambassador/rebel officers (remember all the prisoners Vader interrogated?) and blowing holes in hulls would be total ineptitude destroying mission objectives.

I remember he interrogated one, and he asked questions while choking the other one to death. I also remember his troops went in with guns set to kill, when they have a stun setting. So it's hardly that high a priority.

Um, wrong and wrong. Flashbangs don't work on battle droids and men in fully enclosed helmets. Like, you know, stormtroopers.

If that's a concern you mix it in with droid popper grenades, which assuredly do work on droids and presumably do bad things to helmet optics (which as per the clone wars are electronic) too.

Yes, rebels were relatively lightly armed but still, you're postulating weapon usage that in the movies should be totally obsolete and useless. It's like complaining Navy Seals don't carry swords or chainmails.

You like EU evidence, then there are many examples of stormtroopers using grenades and Flash bang grenades, seeking grenade launchers that fly around corners and all sorts of cool stuff.

As for flamers, name one example in history boarding party using them. There are none. For the very simple reason fires on a ship are bitch to extinguish even without being in middle of firefight. That is without being on a spaceship where fire can produce all sorts of nasty chemicals, or explode fictionium generators or, you know, kill objectives.

Nah, see, I don't need to. You admitted EU to the discussion so I can just use a Star Wars example, the Empire constructs dedicated flamethrower droids it uses in boarding rebel ships.

[NecronLord]

Except military science is like geometry. It has a logic to it all of its own, and the author can't easily avoid the consequences of it. Do you deny that a flashbang grenade of some sort would be an effective weapon that would reduce stormtrooper casualties in this situation?

I'm going to just assume here that you aren't actually reading what I write and call it a day with you. Go back, read what I've said, then ask yourself why you would ask that question.

Oh I understand where you're coming from, and have done it myself in the past. The problem is, your position is unfalsifiable.

I start from the standpoint that these guys have been doing this for a long fucking time so when we see the preeminent military force doing it a certain way, they have their reasons. Not that they are complete morons that have never figured it out.

With this position, you cannot meaningfully analyze whether they are good at soldiering or not, because you start from a standpoint that they are good, and if they do not demonstrate proficiency, you assume there must be an excuse, rather than starting with the evidence and determining if they are good at soldiering or not by comparing that evidence with what is known and proven to work.

Nothing will suffice, when you start from this position, to demonstrate that the stormtroopers are behaving in a suboptimal manner, because you will assume that there are factors that mitigate the evidence, even without any contradictory evidence ("They wanted everyone alive" - even when they are shooting and killing people and there is no explicit evidence they have orders to preserve lives of men near the airlock, who of course, they shoot dead).

[Havok]

Again, read what I wrote.
They have the choice who to kill with a blaster, like how they chose to stun Leia, because she doesn't look like some mook soldier and does look like someone of importance. Throw in a grenade, set a hallway on fire, you lose that ability to chose.

And I didn't say that I start from the standpoint that they are good, simply that they have been doing it for a pretty long while so there must be reasons that they don't use tactics that I see used by Earth militaries. It's not like the rebels were throwing grenades or using flamethrowers either and they were fighting for their lives.

It is absolutely implausible that no one, in a galaxy of hundreds of trillions, has come up with the idea of tossing a grenade through a doorway after you blow it open to clear a room, therefore, there must be a good reason not to do so, either in general or in this specific instance.

And your position is also unfalsifiable because the scene can never change and you just assume they are idiots because the EU tries to bend the movies to their own idiocy instead of going by what the source material shows. No matter what anyone says, "Nope, they are stupid because the EU has XYZ!".

Commander, tear this ship apart until you find those plans! And bring me the passengers, I want them ALIVE!

CLEARLY the passengers are of high importance in this instance so collateral damage is not acceptable, but again, why watch the movie, just read the EU.

[NecronLord]

And I didn't say that I start from the standpoint that they are good, simply that they have been doing it for a pretty long while so there must be reasons that they don't use tactics that I see used by Earth militaries. It's not like the rebels were throwing grenades or using flamethrowers either and they were fighting for their lives.

I never claimed the rebels were a competent military force either, they are not; if they were, there are a number of options better than what they ended up using that are shown in the movies; there are a number of better defences they don't have (on their consular ship, mind you!) that would make it rather difficult, not least, blast doors, present in the very same movie, weapons mounted on the walls (as in the prison cell scene, or the turret gun on the falcon) and in the rest of the canon Ray shields across the door, say or in the corridor (though as the main generator was shut down, those might not be workable) and of course, an E-Web or equivalent would work wonders in those corridors.their defense contains no element of trap, and is not what one would expect of professional soldiers (but then, are they really?) and of course, personal shields like the ones used by the gungan warriors would be an ideal defensive tool in the close environment of a boarding action. These are just things from the films they could have been using, assuming funds and skill. If only they'd had an Ewok in charge; those guys know a thing or too about a good ambush (this is not a joke or sarcasm).

It is absolutely implausible that no one, in a galaxy of hundreds of trillions, has come up with the idea of tossing a grenade through a doorway after you blow it open to clear a room, therefore, there must be a good reason not to do so, either in general or in this specific instance.

By what measure? It is a galaxy that had been at peace for a thousand years before the clone wars; we on the other hand have been knocking seven kinds of shite out of each other for the last thousand years, to the point that there has not been a single year in the last century where the British Army, the one I cited above, hasn't been fighting someone somewhere. Our institutional understanding of war is much greater, because, as per the films at least, these people have not fought in fifty generations or so; remember, any military conflict prior to Naboo is also an EU thing. Of the armies of the Clone Wars, only one could 'think creatively.' In comparison we have been thinking creatively about warfare for centuries.

And your position is also unfalsifiable because the scene can never change and you just assume they are idiots because the EU tries to bend the movies to their own idiocy instead of going by what the source material shows. No matter what anyone says, "Nope, they are stupid because the EU has XYZ!".

I take the scene as evidence, and evaluate it, the things that are good (I think Stormtrooper equipment is very well designed) I call good, the things that are bad, I call bad, I do not assume they know what they're doing, I determine if they do, according to RL standards. My position is evidently falsifiable, you can show how their behaviors conform to real world best practices (stormtrooper guns are good because they have scopes, stocks, iron sights, trigger guards, and other traits of real guns; they even have slings sometimes, about the only thing that could make them better would be adding rails) or are demonstrably superior.

I am going by what the source material shows, which is troopers charging through a door, shooting everything that moves, and following them into the ship.

Commander, tear this ship apart until you find those plans! And bring me the passengers, I want them ALIVE!

CLEARLY the passengers are of high importance in this instance so collateral damage is not acceptable, but again, why watch the movie, just read the EU.

And yet not important enough to simply use stun blasts all the time (something we know is possible because we see it done in the Clone Wars, which is also canon) or to make any effort at getting the retreating men to surrender; indeed they shoot a fair few in the back. Truly this is the image of an operation sensitive to casualties.

Are you aware that you've switched one type of ineptitude for another? Even if, if they have no flash-bang equivalent, and the only option is to charge through the door like men with a death wish, they consistently have their guns set to kill, even when we see here that the guns have a stun setting, and we see clone troopers in other productions (the clone wars) using stun setting extensively even in the open, demonstrating more than adequate range and 'stopping power.'

[Havok]

You do know the difference between the words "passenger" and "crew" don't you Mr Real World Standards?
It's almost like you ignored how I keep pointing out they stunned Leia, someone that CLEARLY wasn't a soldier or crew member, even after she shot one of them.

I mean, you can also produce the real world evidence of how soldiers in space and artificial gravity carry out breach and boarding procedures using blasters and stun rays that you are deriving all your evidence from correct?