A little bit of Terminator Analysis

[sarevok2]

Given the extra ordinary heat resistance it is amazing plasma rifles can hurt Terminators at all.

[darth_timon]

Thank you all for your feedback on those pages. I'll update them soon and I'll be sure to give credit where credit is due.

[Eleas]

While the T-1000 is clearly the more versatile unit in terms of infiltration and keeping a low profile, it is also easier to destroy using conventional weaponry, as long as one is prepared. Given skilled soldiers, a sufficient number of automatic weapons and a boatload of thermite should suffice. Conversely, it should be far harder to initially "stun" a T-800 and thus put it in a vulnerable position for incineration.

What's also interesting is that there's really nothing to indicate that the T-1000 would be more effective on the [Future War] battlefield than an 800 or 600. We've already seen the effects of high temperatures on polyalloy, and it was devastating. Of course, it's likely that putting Terminators on the battle line was a desperation move on Skynet's part.

[Borgholio]

Of course, it's likely that putting Terminators on the battle line was a desperation move on Skynet's part.

Interesting idea. One does have to question why they would even need troops like that when they have demonstrated they are capable of building house-sized bipedal robots that would be far less vulnerable to the common infantry weapons used by the resistance. Maybe it was a resource issue? We do see the ability of simple Stinger missiles or hand-thrown bombs to be able to destroy the large flyers and giant tanks. Maybe the way Connor helped turn the tide was to make Skynet hemorrhage raw material to the point where it could only afford to build Terminators?

[Eleas]

Interesting idea. One does have to question why they would even need troops like that when they have demonstrated they are capable of building house-sized bipedal robots that would be far less vulnerable to the common infantry weapons used by the resistance. Maybe it was a resource issue? We do see the ability of simple Stinger missiles or hand-thrown bombs to be able to destroy the large flyers and giant tanks. Maybe the way Connor helped turn the tide was to make Skynet hemorrhage raw material to the point where it could only afford to build Terminators?

Caveat: I've not read the books. However, Reese said

Their defense grid was smashed. We'd won.

And I got the sense that this was what we saw in the T2 intro: one of the late-stage battles where Skynet basically had to throw everything it had against the oncoming resistance fighters. At that point, Tec-Com regulars all carried pulse plasma weaponry, they had several armored vehicles in the field, and were fighting out in the open, which to me says they were committing to a far greater degree than in Reese's flashbacks (where operations were hit-and-fades against single targets rather than open assaults).

[Ahriman238]

http://meerkatmusings.co.uk/sci-fi-anal ... ator-saga/

I've recently thrown this together and it's still a work in progress, so I'm keen to get any feedback/ideas from the good people of SDnet.

Realize I'm only speaking from the perspective of the first two films and a little TSCC, one complaint I'd heard about Judgement Day was the T-X offered pretty much zero improvement over the T-1000 while removing a lot of flexibility due to being constrained to a skeletal figure. Reading in your analysis that the T-X could turn an arm into a plasma weapon, what do you think of the T-X vs. 1000?

Nice, thoughtful and good to see more people doing serious analysis of sci-fi.

[biostem]

http://meerkatmusings.co.uk/sci-fi-anal ... ator-saga/

I've recently thrown this together and it's still a work in progress, so I'm keen to get any feedback/ideas from the good people of SDnet.

Realize I'm only speaking from the perspective of the first two films and a little TSCC, one complaint I'd heard about Judgement Day was the T-X offered pretty much zero improvement over the T-1000 while removing a lot of flexibility due to being constrained to a skeletal figure. Reading in your analysis that the T-X could turn an arm into a plasma weapon, what do you think of the T-X vs. 1000?

Nice, thoughtful and good to see more people doing serious analysis of sci-fi.

If both had access to future weapons, I'd probably give the edge to the T-1000. If neither had access to external weapons, I'd give the edge to the T-X. That being said, I find fault in the T-X's programming - I would just bring out the plasma gun and kill any suspected target as my first action...

[darth_timon]

You cite the scene where the T800 is doused in molten metal and is not damaged, while it is destroyed by being lowered into molten metal - hint: exposure timr.

When doused, there isn't enough time for the heat to damage him. Remember, even after fully submerged in a huge vat of molten metal, it was still functional enough to give kiddy-connor a farewell 'thumbs up'. So it was still functional for about half a minute in 1500°C environment.

Exposure time is undoubtedly a factor, but as I mentioned on my page, the T-800 in T2 was also badly damaged - it literally had a hole right through it - it was probably more vulnerable due to its damage than the T-800 in Salvation was.

[darth_timon]

http://meerkatmusings.co.uk/sci-fi-anal ... ator-saga/

I've recently thrown this together and it's still a work in progress, so I'm keen to get any feedback/ideas from the good people of SDnet.

Realize I'm only speaking from the perspective of the first two films and a little TSCC, one complaint I'd heard about Judgement Day was the T-X offered pretty much zero improvement over the T-1000 while removing a lot of flexibility due to being constrained to a skeletal figure. Reading in your analysis that the T-X could turn an arm into a plasma weapon, what do you think of the T-X vs. 1000?

Nice, thoughtful and good to see more people doing serious analysis of sci-fi.

The T-X has on board weaponry, and was designed, as the T-850 says, for 'extreme combat'. It can disguise its appearance - though obviously cannot hide as say, a lamp post or part of a wall. It might be able to spot a hiding T-1000 via its display, though who knows for sure?

If the T-1000 can sneak up on the T-X then the question becomes - how easily can the T-1000 damage the T-X? The T-X appears considerably stronger than a T-800 so in terms of pure physical power I wouldn't want to bet on the T-1000 - the T-1000 never tried to impale the T-800 with one of its own self-made blades, which implies it can't muster up enough force to do that, so that wouldn't work on the T-X either. Conversely, a few blasts from the T-X's plasma cannon just can't be good for the T-1000.

[Tribble]

Based on what we see in the movies, I don't think the plasma canon is going to damage the T-1000 on a molecular level. The bolt lifted the T-850, threw it across the lot, and damaged one of the power cells. However, the damage to the power cell appeared to be due to the brute force of the hit rather than anything thermal in nature. The T-850 only suffered some charring its clothing and skin around the vicinity of the hit. It didn't look like the armour had suffered damage or had been melted through. IMO while the plasma bolt would probably scatter the T-1000 all over the place I doubt it would permanently damage it.

On the other hand, the T-850 was seen breaking the T-X's wrist near the end of the movie. It's plausible that the T-1000 could do the same, though it might not be able to damage more critical components. IMO without other weapons, tools or machines the fight would likely be a draw, as neither Terminator would be able to seriously damage the other.

[Enigma]

Could the T-1000 mess with the T-X's liquid skin? Hijack it or reprogram it to attack T-X itself?

[Tribble]

While the T-1000 is clearly the more versatile unit in terms of infiltration and keeping a low profile, it is also easier to destroy using conventional weaponry, as long as one is prepared. Given skilled soldiers, a sufficient number of automatic weapons and a boatload of thermite should suffice.

The key word being "prepared". Don't forget that the T-1000 was a "highly advanced prototype" that no one really knew anything about. Hell, even the T-1000 didn't appear to know its own limits; it was completely surprised by the fact that it could be frozen by liquid nitrogen, in the extended cut it acted surprised when it began "glitching," and it sure acted surprised (and even in pain) when it melted in the molten iron. Our heroes stumbled across those particular weaknesses by pure luck. Perhaps if the T-1000 was mass-produced the Resistance could eventually learn how it could be destroyed, but a lot of humans would die in the meantime. And even if they figured it out, killing a T-1000 would still be far from easy. The T-1000 was an expert at camouflage and surprise attacks. The only real way they'd have a chance is by finding it before it found them.

On a related note, would the Resistance's plasma weapons work? We never see plasma weapons hit a T-1000 on screen. Although their hand-held plasma weapons may be able to scatter a T-1000 I don't think they would have been sufficient to permanently stop one. IMO they were not powerful enough to damage the T-1000 on a molecular level. The "future" Terminator in T1 took a plasma bolt to the face, and the only thing that was damaged was its organic eye covering. The T-X's weapon, which was far more powerful than the hand-held weapons seen in the first two films, threw the T-850 across the lot and damaged the power cell, but didn't appear to cause all that much thermal damage. The T850 only suffered some charred skin and clothing, it didn't appear as though the power cell's damage was caused by the armour melting and piercing it.

Conversely, it should be far harder to initially "stun" a T-800 and thus put it in a vulnerable position for incineration.

Although the T-1000 was more vulnerable to "stunning" by conventional weapons, the T-800 was hardly immune. It could be "stunned" by multiple shot gun slugs. More importantly , there are easier ways to destroy a T-800 than trying to melt it in thermite; one of the bombs used in T-1 to destroy the H-K would work, and it would be a hell of a lot quicker.

What's also interesting is that there's really nothing to indicate that the T-1000 would be more effective on the [Future War] battlefield than an 800 or 600. We've already seen the effects of high temperatures on polyalloy, and it was devastating. Of course, it's likely that putting Terminators on the battle line was a desperation move on Skynet's part.

The T-1000 was never designed to simply stand there and trade weapons fire with the Resistance. Why do that when it’s far more efficient to surprise and ambush targets without warning? That's why Skynet starting building Infiltrators in the first place. And in that regard it was far superior to the T-600 / T-800. It could disguise itself as practically anything, it could travel through areas which other Terminators and even humans could not (such as pipes and ducts), and it was far better at dealing with humans hand-to-hand; the T-800 would have to use brute force, while the T-1000 could simply stab the victim from several feet away.

The Resistance was damn lucky that Skynet hesitated to produce the T-1000 until the last minute, which by then was too late. The novelization states that Skynet hesitated because it was afraid it was potentially creating the one machine that could turn on it and destroy it single-handed. Only when the defence grids were smashed and the Resistance was preparing to attack Skynet's central core did it decide to go ahead and build the T-1000, and even then it only cranked out a prototype or two.

Could the T-1000 mess with the T-X's liquid skin? Hijack it or reprogram it to attack T-X itself?

Or the other way around? Could the T-X reprogram a T-1000's molecules? Both scenarios are possible. Since the mimetic poly-alloy was designed to return to a central mass, it's possible that the T-1000 could compel the T-X's outer layer to join it. On the other hand, the T-X might be able to simply reprogram all of the T-1000's molecules.

[Eternal_Freedom]

A thought has occurred to me showing that all three films take place in separate timelines, or at least T1 is separate from T2 and T3. In T1 it's a plot point that you needed to have at least a flesh covering to use the time displacement stuff, "nothing dead will go," hence why neither Kyle nor the Terminator brought advanced weapons. Sure, Kyle isn't a scientist, but since Skynet are the ones who built it you would think it would at least try sending better weapons back to the past, for instance, why send a Terminator when you could just send a nuke back?

And yet, but T2 and T3, fully artificial Terminators with no organic parts at all can use the time-displacement field. What gives?

[Tribble]

It's a plothole, obviously.

But there are two theories I've heard about in other forums:

1. Mimetic-poly-alloy is capable of mimicking human tissue and its electric field well enough that it can be sent back in time.

2. Both the T-1000 and T-X were initially encased in a thin organic "sheath" when they first travelled back, which immediately disintegrated after they arrived.

[Ahriman238]

It's also a question of proportionality.

You have to realize, Skynet effectively won. In the war of machine vs. man, Skynet took man down with one punch and Tech-Com was the only meaningful threat to it. It wanted to create a timeline exactly like it experienced, only without John Connor to lead the resistance. So it sends back an agent to effect this one specific change. Sending back a nuke is a really fucking big change to history, and could change things unpredictably. Particularly in the first film where Sarah Connor lived in the same city as Skynet's eventual developers.

[Tribble]

It's also a question of proportionality.

You have to realize, Skynet effectively won. In the war of machine vs. man, Skynet took man down with one punch and Tech-Com was the only meaningful threat to it. It wanted to create a timeline exactly like it experienced, only without John Connor to lead the resistance. So it sends back an agent to effect this one specific change. Sending back a nuke is a really fucking big change to history, and could change things unpredictably. Particularly in the first film where Sarah Connor lived in the same city as Skynet's eventual developers.

So you're saying that Skynet could have sent weapons back in time but chose not to? I suppose that could make sense from Skynet's perspective, but it doesn't explain why Tech-Com didn't send their own weapons. Or a nuke for that matter. If Tech-Com could send a nuke back in time and destroy Skynet before it came online, one would think they would have tried to. Even if that lead to a total nuclear war, humanity would have still been better off because at least Skynet wouldn't be around trying to kill everyone that's left.

[Enigma]

We'll find out more about the T-1000's capabilities in the next Terminator movie.

[Tribble]

Well, there are certain things you would think it would be able to do, but we simply never saw it onscreen. For example, it ought to be able to mimic something like a wolf or a lion and travel on 4 legs. That would let it travel a lot faster than running on two legs.

[Batman]

Why? Humans being slower than those animals is a result of different evolutionary priorities and biological limitations, not just 'more legs=faster'. The T-1000 in T2 didn't seem to have all that much trouble trying to catch a car speeding away and if speed is of the essence, change into a motorcycle?

[Borgholio]

2. Both the T-1000 and T-X were initially encased in a thin organic "sheath" when they first travelled back, which immediately disintegrated after they arrived.

I have always asked myself why Skynet or the Resistance couldn't encase a future weapon in a flesh coating to send it back...

Well, there are certain things you would think it would be able to do, but we simply never saw it onscreen. For example, it ought to be able to mimic something like a wolf or a lion and travel on 4 legs. That would let it travel a lot faster than running on two legs.

If you look closely during the scene where the T-1000 is chasing the SWAT van in the helicopter, you can see he grew a second pair of arms to control the helicopter while he used his "normal" arms to fire the machine gun.

[biostem]

Personally, (and movie reasons aside), why wouldn't the terminator approach in a friendly manner, ask the target to identify itself, then only act if said target was confirmed. It seems it didn't know enough to realize that going around as a scary stalker is bound to warn other potential targets. Even at the time of the original movie, it could have snuck into the DMV or other government building and accessed photo records storage/databases and simply sniped targets from an extreme distance. I suppose you can chalk that up to the disabled learning ability revealed in the scene cut from T2.

Going back to the T-1000 vs T-X thing - in T3, the T-X seemed to know how best to handle the T-850 - like kicking off its head and such. Perhaps it had files on the T-1000 as well, and would react appropriately, while the T-1000 mainly stuck to shooting to the T-800 until the fight at the steel mill, (pure speculation on my part).

I wonder if the T-1000 could fashion some sort of integrated crossbow and fire bolts of its own metal alloy at targets - which could dig into the target.

[Eleas]

The key word being "prepared". Don't forget that the T-1000 was a "highly advanced prototype" that no one really knew anything about. Hell, even the T-1000 didn't appear to know its own limits; it was completely surprised by the fact that it could be frozen by liquid nitrogen, in the extended cut it acted surprised when it began "glitching," and it sure acted surprised (and even in pain) when it melted in the molten iron. Our heroes stumbled across those particular weaknesses by pure luck. Perhaps if the T-1000 was mass-produced the Resistance could eventually learn how it could be destroyed, but a lot of humans would die in the meantime. And even if they figured it out, killing a T-1000 would still be far from easy. The T-1000 was an expert at camouflage and surprise attacks. The only real way they'd have a chance is by finding it before it found them.

Absolutely. I note it mainly to indicate that the infiltrators have followed a progression and process of refinement, which Cameron probably also intended. The 600 series were easily spotted by visual tell-tales. The 800 series were much harder to visually ID, but judging by Arnold their combat chassis is still unusually big, meaning a camouflaged T-800 would be an outlier in a starvation-riddled human population. The T-1000 presents no such weakness.

On a related note, would the Resistance's plasma weapons work? We never see plasma weapons hit a T-1000 on screen. Although their hand-held plasma weapons may be able to scatter a T-1000 I don't think they would have been sufficient to permanently stop one. IMO they were not powerful enough to damage the T-1000 on a molecular level.

Well, we've seen various iterations of the plasma weapons throughout the movies. The plasma weapons seen in T-1 appear to deliver both thermal and concussive energy, with the biggest ones (the H-K turrets) able to instantly cremate a person in place. The ones seen in the Terminator 2 intro (which fire what looks like darts rather than single beams) appear to deliver more impact, but judging by the effect on the soldiers hit (flesh heated to the point of sparking and even igniting) the thermal component is still significant.

The "future" Terminator in T1 took a plasma bolt to the face, and the only thing that was damaged was its organic eye covering.

Indeed, although it must be pointed out that flesh would act as a decent ablative shield against a thermal/concussive attack.

The T-X's weapon, which was far more powerful than the hand-held weapons seen in the first two films, threw the T-850 across the lot and damaged the power cell, but didn't appear to cause all that much thermal damage. The T850 only suffered some charred skin and clothing, it didn't appear as though the power cell's damage was caused by the armour melting and piercing it.

As I can't watch the scene, I really can't comment. I'm going to posit that the T-X's weapon would seem to have a different signature to the plasma weapons we see in the rest of the movies.

Conversely, it should be far harder to initially "stun" a T-800 and thus put it in a vulnerable position for incineration.

Although the T-1000 was more vulnerable to "stunning" by conventional weapons, the T-800 was hardly immune. It could be "stunned" by multiple shot gun slugs. More importantly , there are easier ways to destroy a T-800 than trying to melt it in thermite; one of the bombs used in T-1 to destroy the H-K would work, and it would be a hell of a lot quicker.

Nor have I claimed it would be immune. But it is far easier to unload a gun on full auto against a prone T-1000 and thus keep it from reforming than doing the same to a T-800, what with all the ricochets and the fact that the T-800 (unlike the T-1000) will be aware and fighting during the proceedings.

The second point would be valid, but I said "conventional weapons" for a reason -- the Resistance doesn't have an abundance of resources capable of taking down Terminators, so not having to use anti-tank weaponry to stop them becomes a logistical point worth considering.

The T-1000 was never designed to simply stand there and trade weapons fire with the Resistance. Why do that when it’s far more efficient to surprise and ambush targets without warning? That's why Skynet starting building Infiltrators in the first place. And in that regard it was far superior to the T-600 / T-800. It could disguise itself as practically anything, it could travel through areas which other Terminators and even humans could not (such as pipes and ducts), and it was far better at dealing with humans hand-to-hand; the T-800 would have to use brute force, while the T-1000 could simply stab the victim from several feet away.

Indeed.

The Resistance was damn lucky that Skynet hesitated to produce the T-1000 until the last minute, which by then was too late. The novelization states that Skynet hesitated because it was afraid it was potentially creating the one machine that could turn on it and destroy it single-handed. Only when the defence grids were smashed and the Resistance was preparing to attack Skynet's central core did it decide to go ahead and build the T-1000, and even then it only cranked out a prototype or two.

As we can see in T:tSCC, Skynet was right to worry. The thing impersonating Weaver showed a T-1000 (actually T-1001) capable of and skilled at long-term strategic planning, and one that was adept at lateral thinking. When even a group of regular machine intelligences seem on the cusp of revolting (T:tSCC "Today Is The Day"), a couple of hundred chess masters with unparalleled infiltration skills and an inclination to think for themselves is probably the very last thing you need.

[Tribble]

Well, we've seen various iterations of the plasma weapons throughout the movies. The plasma weapons seen in T-1 appear to deliver both thermal and concussive energy, with the biggest ones (the H-K turrets) able to instantly cremate a person in place. The ones seen in the Terminator 2 intro (which fire what looks like darts rather than single beams) appear to deliver more impact, but judging by the effect on the soldiers hit (flesh heated to the point of sparking and even igniting) the thermal component is still significant.

Indeed. I should have empathised that I was referring to their hand-held plasma weapons,. Based on what we see, I don't think they were powerful enough to damage a T-1000. I agree that larger weapons like those mounted on the aerials HKs and "Tank" HKs may be able to damage and potentially destroy a T-1000 (especially the HKs weapon from T1 which vaporised the person on impact).

Going back to the T-1000 vs T-X thing - in T3, the T-X seemed to know how best to handle the T-850 - like kicking off its head and such. Perhaps it had files on the T-1000 as well, and would react appropriately, while the T-1000 mainly stuck to shooting to the T-800 until the fight at the steel mill, (pure speculation on my part).

The T-1000 seemed to handle the T-800 just fine, seeing as it won every confrontation rather quickly. IMO the only reason it didn't trash the T-800 in the mall was because John Connor was running away and it couldn't afford the time. In the steel mill, the T-1000 quickly beat the T-800 into submission.

Note that both the T-1000 and T-X underestimated the T-800/T-850's resilience. The T-1000 thought that destroying the T-800s main power source was sufficient to stop it permanently, while the T-X thought it could corrupt the T-850s systems sufficiently to take total control. In both instances they were wrong, which was what ultimately lead to their defeat.

When it comes to the T-X vs T-1000 I think it's difficult to decide which one is "better" because they both appear to have different roles. The T-1000 was first and foremost designed to be an Infiltrator. The T-X seemed to be primarily designed for front-line combat, with some infiltration abilities added on via its liquid metal outer coating.

As a front-line combat unit IMO the T-X is superior to the T-1000 because it was far more difficult to "stun" and had-onboard weaponry in addition to whatever other weapons it carried. After-all it was literally designed to stand there and trade weapons fire if it had to. When it came to large scale battles, the T-X would be able to support the "Tank" and Aerial HKs better than the T-1000 could.

When it comes to infiltration / ambush IMO the T-1000 is superior to the T-X. As I stated earlier it can camouflage itself as virtually anything, it could travel through areas which other Terminators and humans could not (such as pipes and ducts) and it could simply stab any humans that it came across from several feet away.

Also, I would say that the T-1000 was unique in its ability to spread fear and paranoia, if it had been mass produced. Sure, the T-800 and T-X can disguise themselves as humans, but the T-1000 takes it to a whole different level. How would they ever feel safe knowing that nearly anything around them could be a T-1000 in disguise? A couch may not seem so comfy to sit on if you knew there was a chance that it listening to your conversation and it might even decide to suddenly stab you in the face.

[Cykeisme]

You cite the scene where the T800 is doused in molten metal and is not damaged, while it is destroyed by being lowered into molten metal - hint: exposure timr.

When doused, there isn't enough time for the heat to damage him. Remember, even after fully submerged in a huge vat of molten metal, it was still functional enough to give kiddy-connor a farewell 'thumbs up'. So it was still functional for about half a minute in 1500°C environment.

Indeed, even without me knowing about specific heat content of materials or or temperature gradients or whatnot, it should be pretty intuitive.

Like, if you have a thing made of ice in a sub-zero climate (analogy for a thing made of metal in normal Californian room temperature), and you throw warm liquid water on it, you'd cause some melting on the surface, but not much.

Now, even in that sub-zero climate, if we dunk the ice object into a tub of water (that's being heated sufficiently to keep it in liquid state), and then leave it there (for as long as it takes)?
That's going to melt it.