Doctor Who S34E4: "Listen" Spoilers

[NecronLord]

Thank you. Because on Gallifrey the Time Lords ARE the military. As I have been saying and you have kept ignoring.

So you're basically saying that Gallifrey is some kind of stratocracy and that all Time Lords are trained for military duties? Have you ever seen The Invasion of Time?

[SpottedKitty]

Capaldi does creepy exceedingly well and I hope the do more of the suspenseful episodes with him soon.

Oh yes, he does, doesn't he? Did you spot the bit where he actually did an Unhinged Grin even better than Tom Baker?

[Tribble]

At the end of the it's still a painting. At least a dimensionally transcendent barn makes some because the user could need the extra space for storage.

EDIT: I suppose the paintings could be used to store things as well. One room could be used for many different things. When your in-laws come to visit, you can thrown in your old couch and yank out the dining room table!

[Enigma]

TARDIS isn't a military vehicle every way possible. The TARDIS has shields does not make it a military ship, it just keeps it from getting damaged in space whether it be from a weapon or to keep it from being torn apart by a black hole. Ramming a Dalek saucer may be a military tactic but doesn't make the TARDIS a military ship.

Using Necronlord's analogy, if a cargo tanker rammed a battleship make that cargo tanker a 'battleship with no guns'?

As for dimensional transcendence technology, it isn't solely used by the military. The Doctor's coat pockets are not war pockets. He used it on Trenzalore for non military purposes. The TARDIS wasn't designed to be a military vehicle and yet has the technology.

As for the Time Lords themselves, they are basically the Gallifreyan's elite class. They're supposedly the best of the best that Gallifrey has to offer.

[Parallax]

Best, of course, meaning those best at pushing buttons in an incredibly boring and regulation fashion without actually doing anything.

The point about The Invasion Of Time is a decent one - the Time Lords *sucked* at any sort of fighting or resistance. They were worse than useless in some regards, as some actively switched sides and betrayed their own society. The Chancellery Guard really do seem to be there for ceremonial purposes as when it comes to actual fighting, they're really bad at it - even their aim is terrible, while their weapons don't seem to work on anything that has even the slightest sort of protection.

Gallifrey's sole protection during the Invasion of Time was the transduction barrier. Once that was down, it was open season for The Sontarrans ... yes, the military styled civilisation that is now portrayed as a *running joke*.

[Tribble]

Well, the TIme Lords were drawn into an all out war which lasted for thousands of years. It's likely that they made some pretty significant improvements to their military during that time, though not enough to win.

[InsaneTD]

Well in both scenes, the barn wasn't much taller then the TARDIS('). The mezzanine the child was sleeping on was only a half height one, probably for things you don't want sitting on the ground where water can get to it.

[jwl]

We saw the blanket monster with the blanket off at one point. It was out of focus but it was pale white, as I remember it.

Only a small part of its head, though. That could have just been something as mundane as one of the other kids wearing a Michael Myers mask.

Admittedly though, it would have been nice if at the end of the episode, Danny had met up with one of his children's home friends who said "Say, remember that night when I tried to scare you, and then that Scottish bloke showed up and started blathering about how he promised never to look at me? I'm still trying to work out what the hell his deal was."

That would not have made the episode better. One of the main good points in this episode was the ambiguity about whether the monster exists or not. Do that and you lose the sense of mystery. Plus danny wouldn't have a clue what he is talking about because the doctor wiped his memories.

Why in THE WORLD are you all assuming that the kid in the barn was The Doctor? That is what Clara assumed, her little thought of Hurt going to that barn to activate the moment was just that, HER thought.
Where did we get that the Doctor was raised on a remote farm by what sounded like, not his parents? Where is the toy soldier at that the mysterious dream person left on his bed? That doesn't strike me as something the Doctor, even as a child, would lose or forget about as it gives physical proof that someone was there and it wasn't just a dream, thus negating the whole aspect of it being a nightmare.
I have a thought as to who I think was actually in that bed and I'm sure you can figure out whom that may be.

I'm pretty sure there was a clip of the twelfth or the war doctor holding the soldier after that scene, but it would be interesting if it wasn't the doctor that clara met.

The Doctor jumps back and forth through time from start to finish in a randomly haphazard form. It is logical that he would at the absolute minimum end up jumping to points where Gallifrey still exists prior to the Time War which this episode demonstrated with the Tardis going to Gallifrey in his childhood. Not to mention the inevitable possibility of the Doctor running into other Timelords or time travelers who would know of Gallifrey.
I.E If the Time War happened in Earth 2005, any time the Doctor jumps before that Earth year will have an untouched Gallifrey in the galaxy and mentioning he is the 'last' of the timelords is kinda stupid

So... for some reason the entire universe forgot Gallifrey / Timelords exist even before they went *poof* in a time war but they only magically remember when Time of the Doctor comes so they can threaten to bomb the shit out of a planet if they come back. Oh... but they happily decided to forget again afterwards.
Any power that can time travel should end up running into Gallifrey either before the time war or when they finally come back which would cause a cluster fuck of chaos with the Daleks at minimum and lead to the Doctor picking up on it if he was written consistently to give a shit.

When the time lords were around, they existed, throughout all of time, from start to finish. When the time war was going on, it was going on throughout all of time, from start to finish. When the time lords were destroyed, they were destroyed throughout all of time, from start to finish. When the cracks started appearing and broadcast in "doctor who", they did so throughout all of time, from start to finish. Time is not a straight line. It is more a ball of wobbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, stuff.

I still find it puzzling that 10 and 11 were willing to stand on Gallifrey and push the button while Clara is there, without any assurance that either they or more importantly Clara will survive, however. But there's definitely no special reason to think it's anywhere else and good reason to think it's on Gallifrey.

Maybe they remember the first time they pressed the button, the moment destroyed everything outside of a 1km radius including the barn and the place the Tardis is parked, or something.

Well, fuck, I had to go to flight school to get a pilot's license, airplanes and helicopters have a limited service life, and lots of people freak the fuck out when they see one overhead - that doesn't mean all, or even most, aircraft are military even if aircraft have military applications.

I got the impression the Time Lords modified some of the TARDISes for military use during war but that a lot of them were scientific/civilian in use. If the Doctor's TARDIS is the "most powerful ship in the universe" that could just as well be because all the other more powerful ships were either destroyed in the Time War or trapped in the Time Lock.

Well, in the engines of war that we seem to keep talking about the doctor broke through all of the sky trenches and the transduction barrier, a feat the time lords thought was impossible, in his obsolete type 40 Tardis. So I'd say his Tardis at least has shown some upgrades.

The reason imprisoning Daleks is inane is that there's no reason to keep them, and a million reasons to just destroy them. The Time Lords would have no reason to be merciful to them, and would have no way to break them and get intelligence from them. So the only reason they had one is because the plot of Doomsday required it.

Under the command of pacifist time lord on gallifrey at the start of the war? What I don't understand is why they put them in there inside travel machines rather than as mutant octopuses, and with functioning weapons to boot.

Behold the obviously military technology.

Thank you. Because on Gallifrey the Time Lords ARE the military. As I have been saying and you have kept ignoring.

Notice how he doesn't call it "Gallifreyian art.", but specifically, "Time Lord art.". Oh but you probably just ignored that.

In that case, why do they say in this episode that the doctor will have to join the army because he isn't smart enough to join the academy and become a time lord, if the army and the time lords are the same thing?

[Havok]

It's the difference between going to the academy to be an officer (Time Lord), and enlisting (Army) I'm guessing. It's not a perfect General=Time Lord analogy across the board, but when we have what are clearly soldiers reporting to what are clearly Time Lords, it becomes, not rocket science.

And I didn't say the army was the same thing as the Time Lords...

Yeah and the Doctor is the equivalent of a military officer...

We see Time Lords giving orders to military officers and soldiers. Time Lords clearly also act as military leaders and advisers as well as the society's leaders.

Because on Gallifrey the Time Lords ARE the military.

My stance has been consistent. The Time Lords are analogous to a ruling class that control not just the direction of Gallifrey's society, but as the show repeatedly shows us, it's military.

And yes, the classic show does show more, but the classic show is all set before the however many years of the Time War and obviously there have been some changes. I mean I hear England used to actually be run by a king and not Parliament... crazy!

[jwl]

My stance has been consistent. The Time Lords are analogous to a ruling class that control not just the direction of Gallifrey's society, but as the show repeatedly shows us, it's military.

Yes, as all ruling authorities do. It would be absurd if the rulers of a race have no control over their armies. This does not mean that I would regard, say, David Cameron as a military man.

[mr friendly guy]

1. I see the Time Lords as the ruling class and some clearly do have military duties, but certainly not all of them. So calling them the military would be giving an inaccurate impression, as opposed to ruling the military. To use an analogy, consider nobility in medieval times. Male nobility would have military duties, but females would not. Thus not all of them are "the military."

2. The Doctor's TARDIS was built before the latest Time War. Sure it could have been a military vessel (who doesn't at least have some in times of peace) but it most likely isn't given its lack of weapons. It clearly can be modified to have better military utility (In Engines of War the Doctor had upgraded its shielding to resist TL weapons and by extension ramming Dalek ships), but frankly the evidence suggest that its simply a civilian ship, with some modifications but wouldn't qualify for what would be a warship by Time Lords standards.

From old Who sources Time Lords once upon a time engaged in exploration quite a bit. Namely from the Tom Baker story "Underworld", and some off the cuff mentions in the novelisation of the Jon Pertwee story the Green Death (in regards to how the Time Lord who described Metebelis 3 was totally wrong). So its quite probably the Time Lords used civilian TARDISes for exploration.

3. From the leaked scripts of the fourth episode we see

MAN (OS)
He can't run away crying all the time, if he wants to join the army.
WOMAN (OS)
He doesn't want to join the army. I keep telling you.
MAN (OS)
Well he's not going to the Academy, is he, that boy? He'll never make a Time Lord.
On CLARA: her eyes widen. Realisation, crashing in. No!! No!! The little BOY in the bed above - it can't be, it can't be!!
MAN (OS) (cont'd)
Why does he always come to this place?
WOMAN (OS)
I don't know. It's where he always hides when there's trouble.
Is she in THE DOCTOR's childhood???
CUT TO:
10:41:50 INT. TARDIS - NIGHT
Explosively, THE DOCTOR is awake. He leaps up from his chair.
THE DOCTOR
Sontarans! Perverting the course of human history!!!
ORSON
Doctor?
THE DOCTOR
You're confusing me. Shut up, shut up!
(Looking around)
Where's Clara?
CUT TO:
10:41:59 INT. BARN - NIGHT
And now CLARA, looking round the dimness. Now she, and we recognise it.
THE DOCTOR (OS) DOCTOR WHO - POST PRODUCTION SCRIPT – SERIES 8
Page 62 of 70

Clara?!
It's the barn from The Day Of The Doctor!

You can interpret that how you will, but taking it on face value I get
a) the Barn is the same one from Day of the Doctor
b) Clara thinks she is the Doctor's childhood, but its not 100% clear.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Well... It COULD also be the Master

[Gandalf]

It could also be any other TL ever, and maybe Clara visited all of them?

I'm sure when Moffat tries his hand at the Master, Clara will have a formative role in his character too.

[mr friendly guy]

Well... It COULD also be the Master

Knowing Moffat it will most probably by the Rani and it turns out that he had a sex change after a regeneration.

Ok, its most probably the Master.

[Havok]

My stance has been consistent. The Time Lords are analogous to a ruling class that control not just the direction of Gallifrey's society, but as the show repeatedly shows us, it's military.

Yes, as all ruling authorities do. It would be absurd if the rulers of a race have no control over their armies. This does not mean that I would regard, say, David Cameron as a military man.

I don't know who that is, but in the show, we see, AGAIN, what are clearly soldiers reporting directly to what are clearly Time Lords, IN BATTLE. Sergeants and Lieutenants do not report to senators and governors during battle, they report to their direct military superiors.

[Havok]

Well... It COULD also be the Master

I already said that.
In fact it was the first thing I thought. I remembered when they flashed back to the Master looking into the Time Vortex and the hair on the kid in the bed reminded me of that kid.

[NecronLord]

And yes, the classic show does show more, but the classic show is all set before the however many years of the Time War and obviously there have been some changes. I mean I hear England used to actually be run by a king and not Parliament... crazy!

And the classic show is where he has already acquired his TARDIS, the one you are talking about being comparable to a military vessel with a military officer in command, despite the thing having no weapons, no (military-spec) defenses, and the doctor being neither subject to military discipline nor under any manner of military authority.

[Broomstick]

I don't know who that is, but in the show, we see, AGAIN, what are clearly soldiers reporting directly to what are clearly Time Lords, IN BATTLE. Sergeants and Lieutenants do not report to senators and governors during battle, they report to their direct military superiors.

Not all governmental systems have such stringent separation between civilian government and military as, say, the US. In fact, in some systems the overlap is complete.

In the US system, the National Guard of each state actually is under the direction of the civilian governor and, at least hypothetically, may indeed report to that governor during invasion or insurrection, just as the Federal military reports to the US commander-in-chief, who is a civilian (who may also have military experience in his background, as a number of them have).

In a desperate battle for survival I could see essentially all levels of society being militarized, in which case some of those Time Lords might in fact have been given military rank or re-activated military rank from past terms of service.

The end stage of the Time War when the Not-Doctor used the Moment was NOT normal peacetime, it wasn't even a normal state of war but something apocalyptic that threatened extinction.

[Havok]

And yes, the classic show does show more, but the classic show is all set before the however many years of the Time War and obviously there have been some changes. I mean I hear England used to actually be run by a king and not Parliament... crazy!

And the classic show is where he has already acquired his TARDIS, the one you are talking about being comparable to a military vessel with a military officer in command, despite the thing having no weapons, no (military-spec) defenses, and the doctor being neither subject to military discipline nor under any manner of military authority.

Uh fucking what? The Doctor was forcibly trapped on Earth by the Time Lords... Discipline.

But for the LAST FUCKING time... I never said THE TARDIS i.e., the Doctor's TARDIS was a military vessel. What I said was Time Lord tech is the equivalent of military tech, which it fucking IS regardless of civilian barn use or GPS and

They were the main weapons in the Time WAR.

Which you then demanded evidence for, which I then provided, which you then IGNORED.

CONCEDE. NOW.

Or just keep being the goal post moving, dishonest debater you are.

[Bedlam]

I do wonder if the far future bit was based on the shortest thriller

The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door...

Of in this case 'The last man in the universe sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door..'

Or maybe just a wheezing groaning sound

[Havok]

I don't know who that is, but in the show, we see, AGAIN, what are clearly soldiers reporting directly to what are clearly Time Lords, IN BATTLE. Sergeants and Lieutenants do not report to senators and governors during battle, they report to their direct military superiors.

Not all governmental systems have such stringent separation between civilian government and military as, say, the US. In fact, in some systems the overlap is complete.

In the US system, the National Guard of each state actually is under the direction of the civilian governor and, at least hypothetically, may indeed report to that governor during invasion or insurrection, just as the Federal military reports to the US commander-in-chief, who is a civilian (who may also have military experience in his background, as a number of them have).

In a desperate battle for survival I could see essentially all levels of society being militarized, in which case some of those Time Lords might in fact have been given military rank or re-activated military rank from past terms of service.

The end stage of the Time War when the Not-Doctor used the Moment was NOT normal peacetime, it wasn't even a normal state of war but something apocalyptic that threatened extinction.

I agree with all that, but AGAIN what we SEE is soldiers reporting to Time Lords and we see that there are civilians running for their lives, NOT organized or fighting at all.
No matter how many "yeah but"s everyone comes up with, the evidence is there on screen.

[Havok]

I do wonder if the far future bit was based on the shortest thriller

The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door...

Of in this case 'The last man in the universe sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door..'

Or maybe just a wheezing groaning sound

My question was, how did HE know he was the last man in the universe. Or are we just assuming that he knew he was the last person on that planet and that was enough and the Doctor told him about the Universe?

[Enigma]

But for the LAST FUCKING time... I never said THE TARDIS i.e., the Doctor's TARDIS was a military vessel. What I said was Time Lord tech is the equivalent of military tech, which it fucking IS regardless of civilian barn use or GPS and

They were the main weapons in the Time WAR.

Which you then demanded evidence for, which I then provided, which you then IGNORED.

CONCEDE. NOW.

Or just keep being the goal post moving, dishonest debater you are.

Then how about this post you made?

So the Doctor's TARDIS is ABSOLUTELY NOT a war ships, except you know, when he takes it into battle and rams Dalek saucers with the shields it doesn't have? OK dude.

And man you fucking SUCK at analogies. The TARDIS is a cargo tanker? No dude, it's a battleship with no guns.

The Time Lords wielded WAR TARDISes and Battle TARDISes, not TARDISes. TARDISes to TLs are what ships are to us. Saying TARDIS = military vessel is not entirely accurate just as saying ships = military vessels is not entirely accurate. Just as dimensional transcendent technology is not military tech despite being used as such.

At first I was going to say that the TLs are not part of the military per se, just as the civilian governments are not despite having authority over them, but then I remembered that the TARDIS once constructed, needed to be primed with TL DNA as a defence mechanism (I think I got that right), so I assume that the military versions of them are the same. If so, then the TLs would be the one piloting the WAR TARDISes and BATTLE TARDISes against the Daleks.

[Broomstick]

I do wonder if the far future bit was based on the shortest thriller

The last man on Earth sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door...

Of in this case 'The last man in the universe sat alone in a room. There was a knock on the door..'

It would be, of course, the woman in the universe knocking...

[Tribble]

The Time Lords literally threw everything they had against the Daleks except for the Moment, so I would imagine that regular Tardises were pressed into service. One way or another by the last day of the Time War there didn't appear to be any functioning Tardises left apart from the Doctor's... except perhaps one that the Master used to travel to the end of the universe. But maybe he used something else like a Vortex Manipulator? That might explain why he never went back to the planet to look for a fully-functioning Tardis.