2014 STGOD OOC Commentary Thread 1

[The Romulan Republic]

More on the Coulson/Cali plot is up.

I'm also going to try to wrap up that piracy plot somehow. Maybe say the rescue went badly and my crew is under investigation if that's acceptable.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, there's no obvious reason to assume they screwed up. Unless that's what you want to have happened.

Enough time has passed out of game that I figure your best option is to declare whatever resolution you wanted. It's a cool story and I'm glad Siege created the initial impetus for it. But, and I speak from experience, it is NOT worth going "oh, cool story," plotting a detailed and complex outcome, and dedicating most of your writing output for a multi-month period to writing the conclusion. I did that in SDNW4 and frankly it was not good for my game participation.

I don't regret it, if nothing else because I now know I could write a novel-sized story if I really wanted. But there were tradeoffs.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ok, Siege, what the ever-loving-fuck did you dig out of the ice?

Because it's really cool.

[Siege]

Thanks. It's mostly an exercise in writing Sinclair and SinGen, which I've been dying to do for some time.

Oh, and it's a way to introduce more weird elements. Because, well, I really like weird elements.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm guessing the entity from Who Goes There? by John Campbell.

Also, I think I'm going to try that pastiche of Dune and oriental mysticism and cybernetic theory I've had sloshing around in my brain, if only so someone can counter the predictable invasion of billionaire shape-shifters. It's gonna take a while to gel, though.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Hmmm....well all of my usual strategies for countering unknown shapeshifters in other countries are out the window as we don't have nukes. I'm stumped.

[Siege]

It's equal parts Thing and Shoggoth, I'd say.

And if at some point I can write Sinclair screaming "BEHOLD MY TRUE FORM!" at a cyborg commando I'll be a happy man.

[Simon_Jester]

Not cybernetics as in neural interfaces; cybernetics as in Norbert Weiner.

[Simon_Jester]

Added surface warships to my order of battle post.

A tip of the hat is due to erik_t, who designed a big dumb missile battleship (his words, not mine) that is the direct ancestor of the Guard-the-Norths; all I did was swap out the weapons and remove a hundred or so VLS cells to make room for the Shipwrecks.

All other ship classes are based on ships that either really existed, or in the case of my carriers, seriously considered existing.

EDIT. REALLY IMPORTANT EDIT:

I would like to thank Timothy_C for providing often insanely detailed and patient help in the process of me going through this. I've actually never done anything like this before, and I'm glad I did it at least once.

[The Romulan Republic]

Where are we at in the game time-wise? I had some stuff scheduled for April/May.

[TimothyC]

Last post I made was late March.

[Siege]

Consider it May.

[TimothyC]

Consider it May.

Oh, wait, give me until Saturday for May 1 please. I need to write the opening for RIMPAC

[Simon_Jester]

Uh, likewise; I have one story post I really wanted to do before Timothy's RIMPAC event, the plot for which only gelled in the past few days, and my job keeps me kind of busy sometimes. Can we maybe have a few more days for it to be officially 'April' before we skip straight to officially 'May?'

[Eternal_Freedom]

The Orion-Rheinland Treaty Post is up, woo!

Also, oh fun, a war.

[Simon_Jester]

Wow. Well, that will have interesting effects for the Umerian strategic posture. Wish I'd known about this during in-game February, even if I haven't posted much since then.

...

Also, Thanas, in light of this, it seems more than a little unlikely that the proposed Gastarbeiter program with Umeria will be approved by the Foreign Ministry. While Umeria has seen no need for war with Rheinland since the Boxer Rebellion, the possibility of war with Orion* is at least on their radar for a number of reasons, and that mutual defense clause might leave Umeria with several million hostages to fortune on the soil of a nation it's at war with.

*In Umerian eyes, Orion is not a hostile power, but is a potentially hostile one. The sort that one punctiliously observes the obligations of neutrality with.

[Thanas]

Wow. Well, that will have interesting effects for the Umerian strategic posture. Wish I'd known about this during in-game February, even if I haven't posted much since then.

We announced that in OOC already a while back, it just took a long time to get it up due to both of us being delayed with work etc.

...

Also, Thanas, in light of this, it seems more than a little unlikely that the proposed Gastarbeiter program with Umeria will be approved by the Foreign Ministry. While Umeria has seen no need for war with Rheinland since the Boxer Rebellion, the possibility of war with Orion* is at least on their radar for a number of reasons, and that mutual defense clause might leave Umeria with several million hostages to fortune on the soil of a nation it's at war with.

*In Umerian eyes, Orion is not a hostile power, but is a potentially hostile one. The sort that one punctiliously observes the obligations of neutrality with.

To be honest I got plenty of sources to replenish the Umerians if need be, so just be awarre that the offer is still standing - if not, it won't be a big deal either way.

EDIT: Rheinland is getting a bit concerned at what we view as an attempt by the Umerians to extend their influence north towards our protectorate, which would pose a bit of a threat to our sealane to Ostrheinland. A treaty would convince us that there is no need to do so, but it is not essential.

[Simon_Jester]

Wow. Well, that will have interesting effects for the Umerian strategic posture. Wish I'd known about this during in-game February, even if I haven't posted much since then.

We announced that in OOC already a while back, it just took a long time to get it up due to both of us being delayed with work etc.

Ah. I do not recall this post informing us of the full extent of the Rhenisch-Orion Union that would be concluded in this treaty. However, I'm sure an archive trawl will reveal it. My apologies for making an incorrect accusation, at least implicitly.

To be honest I got plenty of sources to replenish the Umerians if need be, so just be awarre that the offer is still standing - if not, it won't be a big deal either way.

I believe the verb you're looking for is "replace," but yes. I am aware.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Potentially hostile? I'm flattered

Well if it does come to a war, I guess it will be a good test of all our new hardware.

Incidentally, having looked at various peoples OrBats, I'm thinking my Air Force is smaller than it reasonably should be. I have a disproportionately strong military, my Army is reasonable enough at 6 active-duty divisions, but my air force is only about 12 squadrons of front-line jets. I suppose I can walsy say that unlike others we only count active-duty hardware and not stuff held in reserve.

[Thanas]

Ah. I do not recall this post informing us of the full extent of the Rhenisch-Orion Union that would be concluded in this treaty. However, I'm sure an archive trawl will reveal it. My apologies for making an incorrect accusation, at least implicitly.

I

think we even had an IC post announcing our intentions to sign such a treaty (BTW E_F, I messed up. It shouldn't be called the Europa alliance, but defence pact. I hope you don't mind).

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit: Found it:

E_F wrote this:

“Furthermore Sire, I believe that we have reached an informal understanding with Rheinland about a possible closer relationship, perhaps even an alliance. Their foreign minister was surprisingly unambiguous about their interest in closer ties with the Kingdom.”

That remark resulted in surprised muttering from some and a smile from the King. Orion and Rheinland had long been amicable friends but nothing more than occasional port visits by ships had occurred; no doubt a result of Orion’s continuing territorial claims against Rheinland for occupying former Britonian land. Alexander, however, had quietly been working for the last five years of his reign to bring the two nations closer together. He leaned forward to speak, instantly quietening the room.

“I am very pleased to hear that Minister. I think, however, that such delicate and important matters should be discussed face-to-face. Did their minister give any indication they would be amenable to that?”

“They did Sire.”

“Then we shall issue a formal invitation to the Rhennish Chancellor to visit the Kingdom for discussions of great importance. Can we get that arranged for two weeks’ time?” This last question directed at the Interior Minister, Ralph Emmerson.

I then wrote this a few posts later on: Link

"Though while speaking of old friends one must not forget to think of the possibilities of new ones. The Kingdom of Orion has long been a customer of Rheinland industries and vice versa. In the past decades, they have been among the most reliable and steadfast partners for Rheinland Flugzeugwerke and JHD. Yesterday, they invited the Reichskanzler to a formal summit to discuss closer ties and to solve the open question of their claims on Westrheinland. I have decided to accept that invitation and will visit them at the earliest opportunity, probably in February."

More applause, maybe even more than expected. Orion had always been a curious case, Keiko thought. From what she knew of the history of Rheinland and Orion, the latter had been an enthusiastic weapons importer - weapons which Rheinland was more than willing to sell, needing the currency. Yet, there had been sporadic calls on Rheinland by Orion to turn former Britonia over to them, calls that elicited more humour than serious concern in Rheinland (except on part of the conservatives, of course). The public opinion was split - some regarded them as a militaristic state in the making and thought that nothing good would come from being dragged into their quest for regional hegemony, others regarded them as possible valuable allies. She wondered what Cascadia would think of this development.

Now I know you at least read that because you replied to this very post.As to the full extent of the proposal, what we signed was a defensive alliance, which is the lowest form of alliance there is, so.....

[Eternal_Freedom]

No worries on the name, as I said it's a working title.

[Simon_Jester]

Ghetto edit: Found it:

E_F wrote this:

“Furthermore Sire, I believe that we have reached an informal understanding with Rheinland about a possible closer relationship, perhaps even an alliance. Their foreign minister was surprisingly unambiguous about their interest in closer ties with the Kingdom.”...

I then wrote this a few posts later on: Link

"Though while speaking of old friends one must not forget to think of the possibilities of new ones. The Kingdom of Orion has long been a customer of Rheinland industries and vice versa. In the past decades, they have been among the most reliable and steadfast partners for Rheinland Flugzeugwerke and JHD. Yesterday, they invited the Reichskanzler to a formal summit to discuss closer ties and to solve the open question of their claims on Westrheinland. I have decided to accept that invitation and will visit them at the earliest opportunity, probably in February."

...

Now I know you at least read that because you replied to this very post.As to the full extent of the proposal, what we signed was a defensive alliance, which is the lowest form of alliance there is, so.....

So in other words, you hinted at "closer ties."

Now, when you were saying "closer ties" you meant "one for all and all for one" and "zero trade barriers" and "easy immigration" and "preferential imports," which makes for a pretty big package all told.

Well. In your mind that may have been immediately obvious.

The rest of us aren't psychic, with the possible exception of the Waterville Institute.

So while I will certainly agree that you foreshadowed the existence of such an agreement, I don't agree that you informed us of substantially what it was going to be in February, the time to which the treaty has been backdated.

Potentially hostile? I'm flattered

Well, you darn near provoked one of my submarines into thinking it was under attack and about to get torpedoed, and responding by torpedoing your boat right back.

Plus the vaguely stalkerish fact that you even had submarines lurking quietly that close to our waters waiting to jump out of the bushes and say "boo!"

Plus the fact that I suspect our nations have at least some History from the period of Umerian colonialized feebleness... although in all fairness, in that sense Umeria has History with basically every nation that wasn't outright helpless.

Well if it does come to a war, I guess it will be a good test of all our new hardware.

Incidentally, having looked at various peoples OrBats, I'm thinking my Air Force is smaller than it reasonably should be. I have a disproportionately strong military, my Army is reasonable enough at 6 active-duty divisions, but my air force is only about 12 squadrons of front-line jets. I suppose I can walsy say that unlike others we only count active-duty hardware and not stuff held in reserve.

Well, mine is elaborately costed out, so I'm damn sure Umeria could afford it- but note that most of that huge force of fighters consists of planes that are individually no better than an F-16 in any way, and which carry considerably less payload. They're mooks.

Basically, for the cost of those 1300 or so Chariots I could have had no more than 400 or so of a really impressive modern combat aircraft. Super Chariot is somewhat pricier and more capable but the same equation holds more or less true.

Another point: Umeria has a relatively poorly funded army, which is only large because their army payscale is in line with what you'd expect from a nation with a per capita GDP of 12000$ a year. The only parts that are kept up well are the engineers and artillery, although the Umerian definition of 'artillery' is a bit broad.

Meanwhile, Orion has had to maintain a large and capable army if it wants to enforce its will over the large sphere of influence it's trying to maintain in South America (or whatever we're calling that continent now). Also, they've probably had to engage in ongoing, extended military operations including counterinsurgency, which eats up a lot of money that could otherwise go into the procurement budget.

Umeria's had at least two wars of note- Umerian intervention in the Champo-Hakistani War back in the early '70s, and an intervention of unspecified type in the Vedic peninsula which I'm calling the Peninsular War in the early '90s. However, neither conflict resulted in extended, large scale ground combat or required Umeria to maintain a highly equipped army of occupation. If they had required such assets, the Umerians wouldn't have fought the war in the first place.

[Thanas]

So in other words, you hinted at "closer ties."

No, actually, the word alliance is in there. Look at the post of E_F. Obviously Fischer will not say such a thing in public until negotiations are completed. However, you cannot really claim to have been deceived in any way as E_F clearly states an alliance was on the table. As it is, we signed a defensive alliance. This does not give E_F or me license to just start attacking anyone (and why would we? We got our own projects).

[Simon_Jester]

My only source of complaint is that this is supposed to have happened in February, yet we don't find out about it until in-game April (or possibly May).

So the sequence of events is as follows:

1) Some words that might be interpreted to inform us of some of what's going to happen in about "perhaps even an alliance" of a 1400-word post, and throwing some more words that might also hint at it in a 3200-word post in early July. Bluntly, that was not informing anyone, that was foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is good, but it's no substitute for telling people what you're doing.

2) Two and a half months of real time (and a roughly equal amount of game time) pass.

3) We are informed that two major powers signed a NATO-level mutual defense pact two months ago in game time.

The only reason this wouldn't present a problem is because the game has been relatively slow-paced; otherwise you might have been in the position of having to declare war on someone for attacking Orion when you hadn't actually told the world that you were allied with them in the first place.

Remember, we know it from 20th century European history: secret treaty provisions are fun!
_____________________________________________

So I do think it's reasonable for me to formally ask the moderators about the following, because I have a serious concern.

Can we get a ruling requiring something like the following:

"If any event of major geopolitical importance is to take place, such as an alliance/royal marriage/declaration of war/alien invasion/whatever... This event should be declared by the players involved in a timely manner, rather than being retconned in after the fact in a way that makes it difficult for players to show their nations reacting rationally to the event."

I mean, it's one thing if a tramp freighter gets sunk and nobody writes a reaction post for two weeks, because frankly the world won't change much no matter what happens in response to that event.

Or if a border war breaks out between a single country and an NPC- because we can always declare the border war to have had minimal outside consequences for the month or two since it started.

But if two major powers are going to formally weld their fortunes together like this, and for whatever reason they have to say it's happening in or around mid-February... frankly, they should be expected to declare that this is happening at a time that corresponds roughly to in-game mid-February.

Even if that means they don't get to sit around and polish the wording of their posts for two months, and just have to settle for, y'know, publishing the treaty.