Heretical Adepta Sororitas?

[Lord Revan]

could there be large scale corruption/heresy to a point where the whole order would be declared heretics or similar and purged , also if this can happen, would dealing with the renegade order be something the Ecclesiarchy or the inquisition would demand would be their duty and no one else could lay hands on them without punishment or would it be dealth like any other renegades?

[Simon_Jester]

The Sororitas are too big and too subdivided to be corrupt or heretical on such a scale. Plus, they are more plugged into the Imperial orthodoxy of their time than almost any other group within the Imperium. So it's unimaginable that such a group could be shot down for heresy, because they take their doctrine from the very people who get to decide what heresy is.

The closest you could come to that would be a religious schism in which different factions of the Ecclesiarchy take opposite sides, and declare the other faction to be heretics. In such a case, most of the Sororitas side with one faction, but the other faction wins the war. However, in such a case it would not be obvious to an outside observer that the Sororitas were really the heretics.

Basically, any situation in which internal religious strife within the 40k Imperium gets intense enough for the Sororitas to be 'purged' is a situation in which the Ecclesiarchy itself is fighting an internal civil war and there IS no unified power structure in the Imperium's religious leadership.

[Lord Revan]

I'm guessing there's a minor terminological issue here, by order I mean the organizational equilevant of a Space marine chapter not the whole Adepta Sororitas and obviously were also talking about minor orders size of SM chapter aka 1000(ish) battle sisters plus support staff at most not one of the major orders that have tens of thousand if not hundreds of thousand of active battle sisters and the needed support staff

[Simon_Jester]

Oh. Sure, that could happen. A modest-sized unit of Sororitas could lose the plot and be disowned by the Imperium.

How would the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy react? I dunno. I think it would depend on the exact circumstances. If they somehow turn into a Chaos cult then they might well call in other military assets, but if it's purely a doctrinal dispute they might be afraid to bring in regular units for fear of turning said doctrinal dispute into a civil war.

[Bedlam]

There's probably a certain reputational issue in this situation. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't want to air it's dirty laundry in public so if possible it will want to deal with the issue in house rather than revealing to other rival imperial organisations that it's forces are corruptible. The same way that the Inquisition would prefer to deal with it's own rogues internally if at all possible. In both cases they might be forced to bring in external forces, but they might try to arrange for said forces to have an 'accident' afterwards, all for the good of the imperium of course.

[Sinewmire]

It could and has happened.

At least one whole convent has been subverted by Slaanesh infiltration, resulting in the events of Daemonifuge. An order's specific flavour of Imperial cult could be co-opted, for example, as the Blood Angels of Sanguinary cult was in Deus Encarmine.

Alternatively as the Ecclesiarchy of the 41st millenium grows fat and rich an Order could well decide that the slate needs to be wiped clean - it happened during the Age of Apostasy, where Sebastian Thor led a puritan uprising against the corrupt church of High Lord Vandire. If they lose they are heretics and traitors. The Ecclesiarchy are not quite as monolithic as they'd like to be and there are thousands of sub-cults and sects within it. It's easy to imagine wildly differing religions interpretations could result in clashes.

I would imagine both the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy would be struggling through the metaphorical doorway, stooge-like, to be the first to purge the heretics. The other Orders would want to clean their own house, the Ecclesiarchy similarly would want to be seen to redeem their organisation, and the Inquisition would relish a chance to show the Ecclesiarchy that nobody expects, I mean, escapes the Inquisition.

Sounds like a fun idea!

[Irbis]

At least one whole convent has been subverted by Slaanesh infiltration, resulting in the events of Daemonifuge. An order's specific flavour of Imperial cult could be co-opted, for example, as the Blood Angels of Sanguinary cult was in Deus Encarmine.

Funny that, Sororitas own propag... Sourcebook claims that only one Sister had even fallen to Chaos. Too bad no one told other GW writers that, would stop the dozens of fallen Sisters through the works showing up

Anyway, Cain novels deal with similar scenario, unit of Sisters gone rogue. Except, nothing is like it seems at first glance as the investigating Inquisitor learns and the favourite means of disposal of uncertain elements of your force seems to be feeding them to planetary defence against Tyranids or Chaos, at least in the case of not fanatical Inquisitors/Priests.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC in the Cain novel it was more a case of the Sororitas being led astray by a heretic, and they 'atone' for it by holding off a horde of Tyranids. Not quite heresy per se, but close enough for most Inquisitors and the Sisters themselves.

In general there's heresy everywhere; it's just that the majority of it either goes undetected or is quickly and quietly purged, either within a group's own ranks (Inquisition on Inquisition, Marine on Marine, etc) or by the Inquisition. The minority of it actually succeeds at doing something important-- for all the assholery the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy pull, they do manage to try and keep most of it down, and other parts of the Imperium can self-police to some degree. The Marines, for example, are fairly hard to corrupt, although they're certainly not immune (see Soul Drinkers).

[Simon_Jester]

There are quite a few stories of this kind of internal policing- an incident from Brothers of the Snake pops immediately to mind, in which a single Marine acting alone kills the demon-possessed Marine survivor of a unit wiped out by Chaos forces.

[Black Admiral]

IIRC in the Cain novel it was more a case of the Sororitas being led astray by a heretic, and they 'atone' for it by holding off a horde of Tyranids. Not quite heresy per se, but close enough for most Inquisitors and the Sisters themselves.

Yeah, that's about the size of it.

In general there's heresy everywhere; it's just that the majority of it either goes undetected or is quickly and quietly purged, either within a group's own ranks (Inquisition on Inquisition, Marine on Marine, etc) or by the Inquisition. The minority of it actually succeeds at doing something important-- for all the assholery the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy pull, they do manage to try and keep most of it down, and other parts of the Imperium can self-police to some degree. The Marines, for example, are fairly hard to corrupt, although they're certainly not immune (see Soul Drinkers).

The Soul Drinkers are victims of their own benighted stupidity more than anything else (seriously, Sarpedon, you fucking idiot - you're supposed to be an experienced Librarian, and you aren't aware that one of Tzeentch's most common names is the Architect of Fate? I really wish the Crimson Fists had fucking killed you).

[Elheru Aran]

Well... yeah... you can't cure stupid. You would really think that Space Marines would be smart enough to realize that random mutations, listening to heretical preachers and weird visions are probably not a good thing in universe. FFS, even the Chaplain goes astray. Most worthless 40K novel series ever...

[Black Admiral]

Well... yeah... you can't cure stupid. You would really think that Space Marines would be smart enough to realize that random mutations, listening to heretical preachers and weird visions are probably not a good thing in universe. FFS, even the Chaplain goes astray. Most worthless 40K novel series ever...

Well, a lot of the secondary characters are good - Ben Counter's one of the only Black Library authors who really gets how to write Sisters of Battle, IMO - and I do like some of the background that Counter shades in over the course of the series. That and he's very good at writing the Imperial Fists (not so much both Crimson Fists and Howling Griffons though).

It's just a shame that they're shackled to such a bunch of utter bell-ends as the Soul Drinkers (those goons' most iniquitous moment being, for my money, in Crimson Tears, as the entire Soul Drinkers plot is literally pointless - they don't do the only thing they've inserted themselves into (and made much worse) the situation to do!).

[Simon_Jester]

The only way to justify it is with the idea that by policy the Imperium is kept so utterly ignorant of Chaos that they don't spot the warning signs- they don't KNOW mutations mean Chaos.

Except even that doesn't explain it because the Imperial canon is very firmly anti-mutant and anti-heresy regardless of whether they tell people that actual demonic forces lie in back of both.

[Elheru Aran]

There really is no good explanation for the Soul Drinkers' idiocy except authorial fiat. It breaks SoD pretty badly.

That, by the way, is one reason why it's hard for heresy to take root in at least the upper tiers of the Imperium-- laws prohibiting mutation make it so that any upper-class heretics have to either remain physically intact or hide Warp mutations in some fashion. Psychic powers are a mutation, and people manifesting them get thrown into the Black Ships or executed. There are successes, such as the Imperial Governor who was infected by a Genestealer cult in the first Cain novel, though that's technically Tyranids rather than a Chaos cult if we want to nitpick. It bears noting that Genestealer cults operate along very much the same lines as Chaos cults although they're a little more into forcible brainwashing.

It's also why Chaos tends to be more prevalent among the lower classes, where mutants are more likely to be found, even if they're still no more socially acceptable. Sorcerors and wild psykers are often to be found here, and the local planetary lore can preserve Chaos rites among the underclass versus the upper class who tend to try and impose the general 'Imperial' culture on the planet.

It does bear observing that not all Chaos cults do the mutation thing. Khorne, for example, though I can't imagine how a Khornate cult could hide in the middle of the upper classes. I suppose they could use gladiator games as a cover. Slaaneshis tend to go the brothel or BSDM route-- rather obvious and cliche, I suppose, but given that the nobility is known for excess anyway, it might be hard to tell the difference. Nurgle and Tzeentch tend to have too many visible manifestations (rot and decay, mutation) to emerge in the upper tiers of society.

Oh yeah. There's almost certainly some form of civil forfeiture that can be put into play if someone turns up a heretic. That would be one way to discourage the more mendacious members of the upper class from going that way-- get nicked and not only do you get a bullet in the head or a flamer up the bung, all your assets are seized and your finances go into the Imperium's coffers.

Really it's quite a testament to the power of Chaos that they can manage to screw with people as much as they do, and have the relative success that they do...

[Simon_Jester]

There really is no good explanation for the Soul Drinkers' idiocy except authorial fiat. It breaks SoD pretty badly.

That, by the way, is one reason why it's hard for heresy to take root in at least the upper tiers of the Imperium-- laws prohibiting mutation make it so that any upper-class heretics have to either remain physically intact or hide Warp mutations in some fashion. Psychic powers are a mutation, and people manifesting them get thrown into the Black Ships or executed. There are successes, such as the Imperial Governor who was infected by a Genestealer cult in the first Cain novel, though that's technically Tyranids rather than a Chaos cult if we want to nitpick. It bears noting that Genestealer cults operate along very much the same lines as Chaos cults although they're a little more into forcible brainwashing.

Also, genestealer cults don't necessarily mutate you, they mutate your children.

It does bear observing that not all Chaos cults do the mutation thing. Khorne, for example, though I can't imagine how a Khornate cult could hide in the middle of the upper classes.

Dueling societies? Bloodyminded officer corps perpetuating a senseless war?

I suppose they could use gladiator games as a cover. Slaaneshis tend to go the brothel or BSDM route-- rather obvious and cliche, I suppose, but given that the nobility is known for excess anyway, it might be hard to tell the difference. Nurgle and Tzeentch tend to have too many visible manifestations (rot and decay, mutation) to emerge in the upper tiers of society.

Although quite a few Tzeentchians are non-mutated sorceror-types...

[Lord Revan]

Nurgle cult could start as an organization providing "treatment" for a disease (probably one nurgle himself created), tzeenchian cultist could be an organization obsessed with collections knowlage for it's own sake or something like a chess (or the WH40K equilevant) playing society. Slaneesh could also be an art school, dueling club or pretty much anything you can derive plesure from doing since after all the Prince of Excess isn't limited to sex, anything martial related could be perverted to a Khorne cult.

[Elheru Aran]

You guys would totally get purged, you know that. Entirely too creative. Gonna give the heretics ideas.

[Black Admiral]

The only way to justify it is with the idea that by policy the Imperium is kept so utterly ignorant of Chaos that they don't spot the warning signs- they don't KNOW mutations mean Chaos.

Except even that doesn't explain it because the Imperial canon is very firmly anti-mutant and anti-heresy regardless of whether they tell people that actual demonic forces lie in back of both.

Well, the Imperium has been portrayed as excessively stupid in that regard lately. The crowning depths of that iniquity being the killing of anyone who even hears rumours of the Grey Knights, or happens to glimpse them or one of their ships somehow. That in itself isn't the problem - it's stupidly excessive, but the Imperium has done stupidly excessive things before - the problem is that the =][= are using the Grey Knights to do that killing.

Now, there's a rather large problem with that.

[Eternal_Freedom]

You guys would totally get purged, you know that. Entirely too creative. Gonna give the heretics ideas.

We'd get purged for far more basic things than being creative for how cults could be concealed. Little things like "not worshiping old Emps as a god," or just plain thinking about things. Or daring to use technology without seventeen prayers and a special anointing oil.

[Simon_Jester]

The only way to justify it is with the idea that by policy the Imperium is kept so utterly ignorant of Chaos that they don't spot the warning signs- they don't KNOW mutations mean Chaos.

Except even that doesn't explain it because the Imperial canon is very firmly anti-mutant and anti-heresy regardless of whether they tell people that actual demonic forces lie in back of both.

Well, the Imperium has been portrayed as excessively stupid in that regard lately. The crowning depths of that iniquity being the killing of anyone who even hears rumours of the Grey Knights, or happens to glimpse them or one of their ships somehow. That in itself isn't the problem - it's stupidly excessive, but the Imperium has done stupidly excessive things before - the problem is that the =][= are using the Grey Knights to do that killing.

Now, there's a rather large problem with that.

Is that from the most recent Grey Knights codex? Because if so, then I think we might as well just completely forget it, that codex is so full of crazystupid that it's best forgotten for purposes of thinking of Warhammer 40000 as a coherent whole.

[Rogue 9]

To my knowledge, the Inquisition didn't purge everyone involved in the Pandorax campaign including the Dark Angels, and not only were the Grey Knights prominently involved but Daemons of every flavor were running willy-nilly all over the place. The codex fluff is rarely consistent with what gets written when they actually sit down to write a story or campaign plot.

[Black Admiral]

The only way to justify it is with the idea that by policy the Imperium is kept so utterly ignorant of Chaos that they don't spot the warning signs- they don't KNOW mutations mean Chaos.

Except even that doesn't explain it because the Imperial canon is very firmly anti-mutant and anti-heresy regardless of whether they tell people that actual demonic forces lie in back of both.

Well, the Imperium has been portrayed as excessively stupid in that regard lately. The crowning depths of that iniquity being the killing of anyone who even hears rumours of the Grey Knights, or happens to glimpse them or one of their ships somehow. That in itself isn't the problem - it's stupidly excessive, but the Imperium has done stupidly excessive things before - the problem is that the =][= are using the Grey Knights to do that killing.

Now, there's a rather large problem with that.

Is that from the most recent Grey Knights codex? Because if so, then I think we might as well just completely forget it, that codex is so full of crazystupid that it's best forgotten for purposes of thinking of Warhammer 40000 as a coherent whole.

Well, it may well be in the latest GK 'dex, but I came upon that bit of information in the novel The Emperor's Gift. And I do agree that it is something that should probably be consigned to the dustbin of silly ideas, for the simple and good reason of it raising issues like, the Inquisition literally being more destruction to the Imperium than the Traitor Legions.

[Irbis]

It does bear observing that not all Chaos cults do the mutation thing. Khorne, for example, though I can't imagine how a Khornate cult could hide in the middle of the upper classes. I suppose they could use gladiator games as a cover.

Aren't the nobles supposed to be military leaders of their planet? You can easily imagine militant world incessantly training PDF with competing noble houses organizing "war games" with select units (using live ammo) for the glory of being that year's IG tithe - and dumb Administatum praising them for their zeal

Nurgle and Tzeentch tend to have too many visible manifestations (rot and decay, mutation) to emerge in the upper tiers of society.

Um, you really don't see how ambitions, scheming, and knowledge would be trivial to find in the upper tiers? You can try to make population pacifistic, ascetic and disease free to combat the other gods influence, but combating Changer of Ways would require turning them into passive automatons.

Really it's quite a testament to the power of Chaos that they can manage to screw with people as much as they do, and have the relative success that they do...

Speaking of Soul Drinkers, even if their Librarian was utter idiot, don't they have pretty big fixation on geneseeed and its purity? You know, what it being direct connection to primarch and Emperor? Wouldn't first mutation send apothecarium into frenzy?

Or daring to use technology without seventeen prayers and a special anointing oil.

Well, the jury is still out on the practice being idiocy or necessity, though

Is that from the most recent Grey Knights codex? Because if so, then I think we might as well just completely forget it, that codex is so full of crazystupid that it's best forgotten for purposes of thinking of Warhammer 40000 as a coherent whole.

Except, no, it wasn't, this info is from Emperor's Gift based on GK and CSM codex from 3rd Edition

Also, I did read GK and Necron codex of 5th edition, and both had one of the best fluff of that edition, trying to make sense of undeveloped and contradictory factions. The whine of idiots from 4chan on both resulted IMO from both codex being very old and buried under mountain of fanwank and fanon swept aside in new edition (plus a hatedom of the author). Seriously, if you read the complains, you have a feeling they didn't even read the "beloved" 3rd edition fluff as most of the stuff was already there

[Simon_Jester]

Nurgle and Tzeentch tend to have too many visible manifestations (rot and decay, mutation) to emerge in the upper tiers of society.

Um, you really don't see how ambitions, scheming, and knowledge would be trivial to find in the upper tiers? You can try to make population pacifistic, ascetic and disease free to combat the other gods influence, but combating Changer of Ways would require turning them into passive automatons.

Not that the Imperium never tries, of course... but you're right, they wouldn't really hope to succeed.

Is that from the most recent Grey Knights codex? Because if so, then I think we might as well just completely forget it, that codex is so full of crazystupid that it's best forgotten for purposes of thinking of Warhammer 40000 as a coherent whole.

Except, no, it wasn't, this info is from Emperor's Gift based on GK and CSM codex from 3rd Edition

Okay. So why are you rolling my eyes at me? I only own a couple of codices from around 4th Edition when I considered playing the tabletop game and decided against due to lack of storage space for models.

Also, I did read GK and Necron codex of 5th edition, and both had one of the best fluff of that edition, trying to make sense of undeveloped and contradictory factions. The whine of idiots from 4chan on both resulted IMO from both codex being very old and buried under mountain of fanwank and fanon swept aside in new edition (plus a hatedom of the author). Seriously, if you read the complains, you have a feeling they didn't even read the "beloved" 3rd edition fluff as most of the stuff was already there

I never really had much opinion of 4chan's take on it, but the bits I heard described as problematic... were problematic to my way of thinking.

[Ahriman238]

Nurgle cult could start as an organization providing "treatment" for a disease (probably one nurgle himself created), tzeenchian cultist could be an organization obsessed with collections knowlage for it's own sake or something like a chess (or the WH40K equilevant) playing society. Slaneesh could also be an art school, dueling club or pretty much anything you can derive plesure from doing since after all the Prince of Excess isn't limited to sex, anything martial related could be perverted to a Khorne cult.

This whole thread keeps bringing me back to 'Cain's Last Stand' where a.) he tells all the little commissar-cadets to be on the lookout for any group that might be called a 'warrior's bortherhood' particularly if they show a preference for close combat, because they're probably a hidden Khornate cult and b.) a whole Sorotias convent falls to Chaos via mind-rape (so much for "only one sister.")