59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Dominus Atheos
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59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Dominus Atheos »

No drugs found
David Hooks and his wife were in their home on September 24 when she looked out the window and saw men in hoods outside their home. Alarmed, she woke her husband who grabbed his firearm (isn't this the American way?) and you can probably guess what happened next:
"The task force and the SRT members broke down the back door of the family's home and entered, firing an excessive sixteen shots. There is no evidence that David Hooks ever fired a weapon" said Shook.
Why were Georgia law enforcement officers there in the first place?

Because an informant said he found drugs in a vehicle he'd stolen from David Hooks:
Rodney Garrett reportedly told investigators that he took a plastic bag from the pickup, believing that there was money inside,and a set of digital scales.
Then he stole another vehicle from Hooks' home, a Lincoln Aviator SUV, the warrant says. After he drove the SUV to Dublin, Garrett said, he realized that the bag contained meth instead of cash.

Garrett told officers that he "became scared for his safety," and turned himself in to Laurens deputies, the warrant says.
For what it's worth, Hooks immediately called the vehicle in as stolen. And who signed off on the warrant based on that information?
…. at 10 p.m. the same day Laurens deputies got a non-attorney deputy magistrate to sign off on a search warrant, according to Mitchell Shook, the attorney representing the Hooks family.
The raid took place only an hour later. The Hooks' family attorney says the series of events was totally illegal:
“The [deputies] broke down the back door of the family’s home and entered, firing an excessive sixteen shots. There is no evidence that David Hooks ever fired a weapon,” said Shook, who also says the warrant did not have a “no-knock” clause and therefore required law enforcement to identify themselves.
And after 44 hours of searching every inch of the property, Georgia law enforcement didn't find a single thing:
Shook said the GBI did not find any contraband in the 44 hours they held Hooks’ property after the shooting.
Shook said Hooks was a devoted husband and father, not a drug user or distributor. He had passed multiple background checks to work on military bases and was financially stable.

“This is not a person who needs to be involved in criminal activity for financial gain. He did very well financially,” Shook said.
According to StopTheDrugWar.org, David Hooks was the 34th person to die in US domestic drug law enforcement operations so far this year.

See the full statement from attorney Mitch Shook, representing the family of David Hooks:
We buried a great man yesterday. Our loss is devastating to our family and to our community. David was a loving and devoted husband, father, and grandfather who was a role model to his children, grandchildren, and numerous other friends and relatives.

We respect the Georgia Bureau of Investigations continuing their investigation into this tragic death. At the same time, we continue our own investigation. Our investigation is ongoing and we cannot divulge much at this time. We expect it to be a couple of months before the GBI's investigation is complete. However, we want the public to know the true facts of this tragedy are in stark contrast to the media reports released by law enforcement at this time.

First, David Hooks was a successful businessman who owned two thriving businesses. His construction company worked on military bases, including Hunter Army Airfield and Fort Stewart. As such, he was vetted and underwent background checks by state and federal authorities including the Department of Homeland Security and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Based on those background checks, he was granted a security clearance which allowed him to work on these military bases. He was not a drug user or distributor. Second after taking over the scene at around 11:55 p.m. on the 24th of September the GBI conducted a thorough search of the property that lasted until approximately 8:00 p.m. Friday, September 26th. That search of some 44 hours conducted by numerous agents with the GBI resulted in not one item of contraband being found! This has been confirmed to the family by the GBI and is evidenced by the return of the original search warrant which was finally filed in court on September 29th and indicates that nothing was seized pursuant to the search warrant.

At this point here is what the evidence shows and we must stress that we are very early in the investigation. On Monday, September 22nd or the early morning hours of Tuesday, September 23rd, David and Teresa Hooks home was burglarized and several items were taken from the property including a Lincoln Aviator vehicle. The burglary was committed by Rodney Garrett a meth addict. David Hooks reported the burglary and the Laurens County Sheriff's Department began an investigation into the same. After a brief investigation by the Laurens County Sheriff's Department, a warrant was issued for Garrett's arrest at 3:45 p.m. on September 23rd. Approximately 24 hours later at 3:45 p.m., Rodney Garrett was taken into custody and confessed to the burglary and theft of motor vehicle, as well as other offenses.

On Wednesday, September 24th at 9:56 p.m., drug task force agent Chris Brewer made application for a search warrant before Faith Snell a non-attorney Deputy Magistrate of the Laurens County Magistrate Court. The facts submitted to Deputy Magistrate Snell to convince her that probable cause existed to issue the warrant consisted of the statement by Rodney Garrett a confessed burglar, thief, and a meth addict who was under the influence at the time of his arrest that the approximately 20 grams of methamphetamine, a digital scale, and 2 firearms found on him at the time of arrest had been stolen by him out of another vehicle at the Hooks home. Investigator Brewer also stated information he claimed came from an investigation involving Jeff Frazier. That investigation was in August 2009 over 5 years ago. A search warrant was issued at 9:56 p.m. by Judge Snell. This search warrant is invalid on its face as it does not comport with the requirements of the Constitution of State of Georgia nor the United States Constitution. Armed with an invalid search warrant and with less than an hour of preparation, at approximately 10:55 p.m. several members of the Drug Task Force and the Laurens County Sheriff's Response Team arrived at David and Teresa Hooks home unannounced by emergency lights or sirens. There is no question the Officers were aware the home had been burglarized only two nights earlier.

David and Teresa were under the impression that the burglars were back and that a home invasion was eminent. David armed himself to protect his wife and his home. Despite the fact that the illegal search warrant did not have a "no knock" clause the Drug Task Force and SRT members broke down the back door of the family's home and entered firing in excess of 16 shots. These shots were from multiple firearms and from both 40 caliber handguns and assault rifles. Several shots were fired through a blind wall at David with the shooters not knowing who or what was on the other side of the wall. The trajectory of the shots, coupled with the number of shots infers a clear intent on behalf of the shooters to kill David Hooks.

David was hit multiple times and ultimately died from the gunshot wounds he suffered. There is no evidence whatsoever that David Hooks fired a weapon. I must repeat this happened inside his home. There are other aspects to this case that we are continuing to investigate and search for answers. The family calls upon the District Attorney's office to do its own investigation after receiving the GBI's report regarding this matter and take whatever action the law and justice demands. The family calls on Sheriff W.A. "Bill" Harrell to immediately suspend all the individuals who participated in this tragedy from their law enforcement duties. Said individuals should remain on suspension until such time when the Georgia Bureau of Investigations has completed its investigation in this case, turned its report over to the District Attorney's office, and the District Attorney's office has taken whatever action it deems necessary in the interest of justice.
More information:
Phillip Smith at the Drug War Chronicle sums up the news reports detailing the latest casualty in the never-ending U.S. war on drugs.

A Georgia SWAT team shot and killed an armed homeowner during a September 24 drug raid sparked by the word of a self-confessed meth addict and burglar who had robbed the property the previous day. No drugs were found. David Hooks, 59, becomes the 34th person to die in US domestic drug law enforcement operations so far this year.

According to WMAZ TV 13, Laurens County sheriff’s deputies with the drug task force and special response team (SWAT team) conducted a no-knock search on Hooks’ home in East Dublin on the evening of the 24th. When the raiders burst through the back door of the residence, they encountered Hooks’ carrying a shotgun. Multiple deputies opened fire, shooting [and] killing Hooks.

According to his family, Hooks was not a drug user or seller, but was a successful businessman who ran a construction company that, among other things, did work on US military bases. Hooks had passed background checks and had a security clearance.

The search warrant to raid Hooks’ home came about after a local meth addict named Rodney Garrett came onto the property two nights earlier and stole one of Hooks’ vehicles. Garrett claimed that before he stole the vehicle, he broke into another vehicle on the property and stole a plastic bag. Garrett claimed he thought the bag contained money, but when he later examined it and discovered it contained 20 grams of meth and a digital scale, he “became scared for his safety” and turned himself in to the sheriff’s office.

(Hooks’ family, however, said that Garrett had been identified as the burglar and a warrant issued for his arrest the day after the burglary. He was arrested the following day; the raid happened that same night.)

Garrett’s claims were the primary basis for the search warrant. But investigators also claimed they were familiar with the address from a 2009 investigation in which a suspect claimed he had supplied ounces of meth to Hooks, who resold it. Nothing apparently ever came of that investigation, but the five-year-old uncorroborated tip made it into the search warrant application.

And it was enough to get a search warrant from a compliant magistrate. Hooks family attorney Mitchell Shook said that even though the warrant was not a no-knock warrant, the Laurens County SWAT team did not announce its presence, but just broke down the back door of the residence.

Mitchell Shook, an attorney for Hooks’s family, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution that deputies spent 44 hours searching Hooks’s home for drugs — yet they found nothing. The attorney also told the Macon Telegraph that the shooting didn’t happen the way the police say it did.

According to the family attorney’s account, Hooks was asleep when armed deputies arrived at his house at 1184 Ga. 319 just before 11 p.m. Sept. 24. His wife, Teresa, was upstairs in her craft room when she heard a car drive fast up the driveway, and she looked out the window.

“She saw several men all in black and camo with hoods on,” Shook said. “She ran downstairs, woke David and said, ‘The burglars are back.’ ”

Hooks retrieved a gun and headed out of the bedroom as the officers broke down the back door, Shook said. He said Hooks was not wounded at the door but behind a wall in his house.

“They may have seen him with a weapon, but it appears at that point in time it was chaos,” Shook said. “They were shooting everywhere. There’s a lot more to it than law enforcement has reported.”

He believes deputies fired 16 to 18 shots from multiple guns and assault rifles. Shook also questioned the wisdom of serving the warrant so late at night.

The [Georgia Bureau of Investigation] is investigating the shooting, as is customary when officers are involved in wounding or killing a suspect.

The police are doing what they usually do after one of these raids goes wrong: They’re bunkering down.

Laurens County Sheriff Bill Harrell indicated last week his department would not be releasing any information beyond the initial news release. He also did not immediately return Wednesday’s inquiries concerning the attorney’s allegations.

So add another body to the pile. Four years ago, I described another fatality at the hands of a Georgia anti-drug task force — the death of pastor Jonathan Ayers. Eight years ago, a narcotics team from Atlanta killed 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston during a drug raid on her home, then attempted to plant drugs in her basement to cover its mistake. The team had been relying on a tip from an informant and did no corroborating investigation. In 2010, a Polk County, Ga., drug raid team put a 76-year-old woman in intensive care with congestive heart failure after raiding the wrong house. In 2008, a Gwinnett County tactical team terrified a couple and a baby when they raided the wrong home. In 2000, a Georgia police raid team shot and killed Lynette Gayle Jackson when she held up a gun as they broke into her home. Jackson had recently been robbed. In 2006, Deputy Joseph Whitehead was shot and killed during a surprise raid on a suspected drug house. The men who shot him, Antron Fair and Damon Jolly, argued that they thought they were being robbed by a gang. They later pleaded guilty to murder to avoid the death penalty. And, of course, last May, 19-month-old Bounkham Phonesavanh was critically wounded when officers deployed a flash grenade in his crib during a drug raid on his home. That raid, too, lacked much in the way of investigation.

Meanwhile, last week, a heavily armed team of Bartow County, Ga., cops and the Georgia governor’s anti-drug task force raided a man’s home after mistaking the okra in his garden for marijuana. No one was harmed, but the gardener, Dwayne Perry, described the cops as “armed to the gills” and told the Journal-Constitution, “The more I thought about it, what could have happened? Anything could have happened.” He’s right. Just ask the family of David Hooks.

That’s all just Georgia. Other things that have triggered raids after police mistook them for pot: tomatoes (many times), loose leaf tea, sunflowers, fish, elderberry bushes, kenaf plants, hibiscus, ragweed, yellow bell peppers, daisies, the scent of a skunk, the scent of guinea pigs and a plastic plant purchased for a pet lizard’s terrarium.

And, of course, people are dying outside of Georgia, too. Like Jason Westcott in May. In fact, by my count, 11 people have been killed in drug raids this year — nine civilians and two cops.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the- ... -fatality/

Posted outside the general police abuse thread because this isn't "general" police abuse, this one is really, really bad.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Alyeska »

There are significant problems at play here. But hyperbole and scare mongering does not help make the case. The first article is fucking worthless for reporting value because of the falsehoods and opinions stated as facts. The second article is much better written, and shows the entire situation of events to be an absurd comedy of errors that lead to the taking of a life. No single person can be blamed because this is an endemic failure caused in large part by the war on drugs and war on terror culture.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Feil »

16-18 shots from "multiple guns and assault rifles" isn't actually excessive at all - it works out to probably an average of three shots per shooter, which is a remarkably low number for automatic weapons.

Alyeska, every member of the SWAT team can and should be individually blamed (and charged) for manslaughter. Breaking into someone's home without a warrant or exigent circumstances is a crime. Any deaths that result from a criminal act are manslaughter*, regardless of the intentions of the killers. It's probably never going to happen, but it should.

*At the very least. Sometimes they're murder, depending on the crime that gave rise to the deaths. I don't think that the circumstances in this event qualify, though.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Simon_Jester »

The really fundamental flaw I perceive in the process is the part where the unsupported testimony of an acknowledged car thief, plus a five year old "tip" that had never been substantiated and the investigation of which came to nothing, was grounds for a nighttime police raid on Hooks' home, without further investigation.

Once you accept that you can send commandos to storm a man's house on the basis of that level of 'evidence,' this kind of thing becomes almost inevitable.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Beowulf »

Feil wrote:16-18 shots from "multiple guns and assault rifles" isn't actually excessive at all - it works out to probably an average of three shots per shooter, which is a remarkably low number for automatic weapons.

Alyeska, every member of the SWAT team can and should be individually blamed (and charged) for manslaughter. Breaking into someone's home without a warrant or exigent circumstances is a crime. Any deaths that result from a criminal act are manslaughter*, regardless of the intentions of the killers. It's probably never going to happen, but it should.

*At the very least. Sometimes they're murder, depending on the crime that gave rise to the deaths. I don't think that the circumstances in this event qualify, though.
they did have a warrant. It wasn't a no knock warrant, so they probably should be charged, because if they'd served it required, it'd be more likely to result in a the guy no being dead. That said, the knock can be all of just a knock and shout of Police just before the battering ram hits the door.

The CI should be charged with murder, just like any one else who initiates a SWATTing (attempted murder if no one ends up dead, as the case may be).
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Alyeska »

Feil wrote:16-18 shots from "multiple guns and assault rifles" isn't actually excessive at all - it works out to probably an average of three shots per shooter, which is a remarkably low number for automatic weapons.

Alyeska, every member of the SWAT team can and should be individually blamed (and charged) for manslaughter. Breaking into someone's home without a warrant or exigent circumstances is a crime. Any deaths that result from a criminal act are manslaughter*, regardless of the intentions of the killers. It's probably never going to happen, but it should.

*At the very least. Sometimes they're murder, depending on the crime that gave rise to the deaths. I don't think that the circumstances in this event qualify, though.
Try reading the article again. Contrary to the first news story, there was a warrant and the raid was legal.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by White Haven »

Please hang up and try again, Aly-boy. Both articles agree that there was a warrant, and both articles agree that it was not a no-knock warrant, and bot articles agree that the raid was a no-knock raid. About that legality...
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by ArmorPierce »

quote from second article:
And it was enough to get a search warrant from a compliant magistrate. Hooks family attorney Mitchell Shook said that even though the warrant was not a no-knock warrant, the Laurens County SWAT team did not announce its presence, but just broke down the back door of the residence.
According to the family attorney, it was NOT a no-knock warrant, but the officers carried it out as if it was a no-knock warrant. This makes the raid illegal unelss some sort of emergency leads cop to believe they needed to knock the door down.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Simon_Jester »

The first article explicitly says the raid was illegal (because it violated the terms of the warrant). The second article, so far as I can tell, does not explicitly say one way or the other... but the facts don't appear to be in dispute.
Beowulf wrote:they did have a warrant. It wasn't a no knock warrant, so they probably should be charged, because if they'd served it required, it'd be more likely to result in a the guy no being dead. That said, the knock can be all of just a knock and shout of Police just before the battering ram hits the door.
I think that should be changed.

There should be three categories of warrant:

1) "Knock" This would be the norm, used in like 90 or 95% of all cases, if not more. In this case, the 'knocking' step should involve giving the occupants enough time to respond and peaceably admit the police in a timely fashion. This is designed to prevent the need for random SWAT assaults on people's homes in the middle of the night.

2) "Announce" This is shouting "POLICE!" and bashing the door down two seconds later. This would be normal for things like drug raids IF there are reasonable grounds to assume that giving the occupants a minute to get ready is too long (i.e. if there is more evidence than would normally be required to issue a warrant that the occupants are in fact drug dealers with contraband in their home).

3) "Assault" This should be given if and only if there is reason to believe that giving the occupants even a few seconds' warning could pose an imminent threat to the life and limb of the officers. In this case, you would storm in without advance warning, but the only reason to do this is if you have overriding evidence that the place is full of violent trigger-happy gangsters. Not just "a drug dealer," but a group willing and ready to pose a direct personal threat to the SWAT team. Fear that they will destroy evidence is simply not enough.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

There is another possibility here. The officers saw him with a weapon and decided to expedite the entry instead of knocking and announcing the family attorney acknowledges this possibility in the second article. Though if that is the case they still messed up in my opinion. At that point it became unsafe for them and their subject to force entry when he was aware and armed.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Simon_Jester »

I don't understand what you mean by "and their subject to force entry"
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by White Haven »

He's saying it became unsafe for both the police and their subject, Simon. And that's quite correct; it's somewhat akin to being stupid enough to attempt to defuse a dynamite bomb via the use of a Zippo.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ah. So the argument is that they should have simply left, rather than spontaneously attacking?
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by White Haven »

Either left or knocked on the door. There is no third option. If this were to take place in a hypothetical state wherein field artillery is legal for civilian ownership, there would still be no third option, although simple prudence would dictate that if the police were to glance through the picture window and see a 155mm howitzer pointed at the door they might wish to announce themselves through a megaphone or a phone call from outside bombardment range. 'I see a weapon' is not a reason to breach in a society that permits civilian ownership of weapons. Whether or not someone thinks that civilian ownership of weapons should be legal, it is, and the police need to behave accordingly unless that changes.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by aerius »

Simon_Jester wrote:Ah. So the argument is that they should have simply left, rather than spontaneously attacking?
Technically it's a standoff once the police see that he has a gun, and at that point the correct course of action is to back off, surround his home from a distance for the safety of the community, and either give him a phone call or hail him with a megaphone. There's no imminent danger to anyone else in the home, to the community, or anyone else, so you can safely wait him out while figuring out what to do & de-escalate the situation.

Going through with the raid or even going to knock on the door when there's that many weapons waving around is escalating the situation and asking for a bad outcome.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by LadyTevar »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did it not state that the Policemen were firing Blind? The bullets they fired went through a wall to hit the victim? Did they even see or ID the victim before they started shooting?

Also, who the hell thought that a meth addict already high as a kite would tell the truth about where he got guns, meth, and scales? It is clearly obvius the addict lied through his teeth, and a man died for it. Get him for Manslaughter as well.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Feil »

They almost certainly saw the victim and then opened fire when he moved out of their sight, killing him through the wall, given how few rounds were fired.

The person who authorized the search on the basis of the obviously-false testimony didn't commit any crimes, although it would be reasonable for him to face some kind of mandatory retraining or something to avoid wasting further taxpayer money and inconveniencing homeowners with senseless searches. The restrictions on what kind of evidence you need to get a search warrant are pretty light. Remember, the search warrant that he signed was never served and never authorized the break-in. Even if signing the search warrant was a crime, he would still be innocent of manslaughter, because he had no knowledge or reasonable expectation of the crime that was going to be committed (breaking into his house) which led to the death of the homeowner.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah.

In itself, authorizing a search of the property based on crappy testimony is not the problem, or at least not the very serious problem.

The problem is that the local police felt justified in staging an aggressive killer commando approach to Hooks' home as soon as they realized that he'd reacted to unknown, unidentified strangers rustling around in the bushes outside his home by going for a gun.

They seem to have decided that because they had a warrant to search the property, Hooks must be an evil drug-dealing scumbag who should be shot if he reacted in such a way.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Irbis »

White Haven wrote:155mm howitzer pointed at the door they might wish to announce themselves through a megaphone or a phone call from outside bombardment range. 'I see a weapon' is not a reason to breach in a society that permits civilian ownership of weapons. Whether or not someone thinks that civilian ownership of weapons should be legal, it is, and the police need to behave accordingly unless that changes.
From outside of bombardment range? You mean from 30 km? :|

Yes, I know that's not what you might intend to say, but while ownership of the guns might be legal, police is going to react to it accordingly and there is only so much you can do to tiptoe around the issue before law enforcement becomes either entirely toothless, or escalates force to get similar advantage over criminal he would have in gun-restricted society. For simple fear of their lives or for being able to do their jobs at all.

At least that's what I'd like to believe, because otherwise the escalation is only explainable by most of police force being evil oppressors, and that is not really a sane assumption to make. But then again, I struggle with understanding of US gun mania mindset at all - when you saw in dozen EU countries a police force that can afford to knock with a smile first asking what is wrong, with gun hidden or left in car, I have no idea what bizarre argument might lead to prefer living in climate where police is Delta Force wannabe and gangs sport squads of M-16 gunners.

I mean, Poland is much poorer than USA, we have drug problems, too, and the worst that you can meet is small band of hooligans, and that in really bad locations (much worse than most ghettos in USA). When I read reports from USA and (especially) Mexico, where hundred thousand people died recently in drug gang war fuleled by USA dumping truckloads of poison into the well by supplying gun smuggling I struggle to find even one argument for justifying similar law system.

Not even the worst gang wars in Russia/Ukraine in 90s were that bad, and that was in very poor country with corrupt police and big drug problem. How you can willingly turn yours (or neighbouring) country into something less safe than half-failed state with actual religious and ethnical conflicts is beyond me. If you compare all of Europe with twice of US population, you will find maybe 1/20 of school shootings, 1/100 if you look at most restricted countries.

I tried to understand it, really hard, even, but all the usual NRA types had for arguments were petty insults, half-truths and outright fabrications (some innocent, like failing to understand simple statistics, but still utterly false), complete with conspiracy theories and paranoia about government, so in the end I couldn't find even one compelling one, sorry :?
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Thanas »

I think it is true that gun ownership is not the reason for crime (see Switzerland). But it certainly excarbates the problem with police being scared out of their wits.

Of course, there also is a definite "fuck them all" mentality from the police that does nothing to help either. And a lack of accountability and morality from the cops. Perfect storm of fuckups.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Gaidin »

Thanas wrote:I think it is true that gun ownership is not the reason for crime (see Switzerland). But it certainly excarbates the problem with police being scared out of their wits.
I remember reading on this forum there was something in training that they usually see the videos of the one or two gun incidents gone wrong. Not the 99 or 98 gone right. Hence the ingrained and just scared out of their wits. Though I could be misremembering as I don't remember what exactly was posted. I mean, it seems right, as if dealing with someone carrying was as absolutely dangerous as they like to make it sound...
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

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Oh don't get me wrong, the US police being giant pussies has a lot to do with it (and if people don't like that label, they can go and explain how people manage to deal with armed criminals in Europe - three-hundred year old crime syndicates ring a bell - without shooting so many civilians). It seems as if many police in the USA are afraid to take any risk at all. "Sure, that granny might not be a whacko with a gun hidden in her garter belt, but let's not take any chances here".

But it is not only the police. After all, they didn't get up and decide one day that they would be this way.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Gaidin wrote:
Thanas wrote:I think it is true that gun ownership is not the reason for crime (see Switzerland). But it certainly excarbates the problem with police being scared out of their wits.
I remember reading on this forum there was something in training that they usually see the videos of the one or two gun incidents gone wrong. Not the 99 or 98 gone right. Hence the ingrained and just scared out of their wits. Though I could be misremembering as I don't remember what exactly was posted. I mean, it seems right, as if dealing with someone carrying was as absolutely dangerous as they like to make it sound...
Actually there is a whole library of both that you are shown. There's also a ton of videos and then scenario you're put through in which an individual pulls something suddenly but that something turns out to not be a firearm or deadly weapon.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Thanas wrote:Oh don't get me wrong, the US police being giant pussies has a lot to do with it (and if people don't like that label, they can go and explain how people manage to deal with armed criminals in Europe - three-hundred year old crime syndicates ring a bell - without shooting so many civilians). It seems as if many police in the USA are afraid to take any risk at all. "Sure, that granny might not be a whacko with a gun hidden in her garter belt, but let's not take any chances here".

But it is not only the police. After all, they didn't get up and decide one day that they would be this way.
Take a look at the homicide rate compared to the US versus all of Europe and then break it down to that which is done with firearms and you'll have your answer. Also, if that's not enough remember this is the country where police get ambushed eating breakfast, people get shot just for ringing door bells, etc.

There's a culture of violence here and that is combined with a culture of fear mongering.

Then again police deal with citizens nearly 40 million times a year. There are many where deadly force could be used and is not. You just never hear those stories because they aren't interesting.
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Re: 59-year-old Georgia man killed in no-knock raid

Post by His Divine Shadow »

aerius wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Ah. So the argument is that they should have simply left, rather than spontaneously attacking?
Technically it's a standoff once the police see that he has a gun, and at that point the correct course of action is to back off, surround his home from a distance for the safety of the community, and either give him a phone call or hail him with a megaphone. There's no imminent danger to anyone else in the home, to the community, or anyone else, so you can safely wait him out while figuring out what to do & de-escalate the situation.

Going through with the raid or even going to knock on the door when there's that many weapons waving around is escalating the situation and asking for a bad outcome.
This seems like it could be a more appropriate response when going after drug houses too, than say flashbanging and shit. Ofourse then they can flush their stash when you do it like that, but who cares.
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