The Galactic Empire invade the Star Gate Universe

[Highlord Laan]

Important question too, who in canon Star Wars (not Legacies) actually uses slugthrowers? I'm hard pressed to think of anything but a Kaminoan Saber Dart, which is presumably worthless on metallic targets.

Lando actually carries one, because its lack of power cell makes it rather easy to sneak into places. I remember a book scene where he takes out a couple stormtroopers with it.

[Batman]

Except the EU is no longer canon. At least for the time being, it's the movies, TCW, and presumably 'Rebels'.

[Highlord Laan]

Except the EU is no longer canon. At least for the time being, it's the movies, TCW, and presumably 'Rebels'.

Than not only do slugthrowers not exist, trigger guards, marksmanship training and proper weapon handling don't either.

[Batman]

Because there's totally no trigger guards on the Stormtrooper weapons in 'Spark of Rebellion'. Or in ANH. Or on Han's and Luke's blaster pistols in ANH and ESB.
And no, the new canon 'doesn't' mean slugthrowers no longer exist. It just means we no longer have them conveniently identified as such and have to go back to examining the visuals to determine whether or not a weapon is one.

[Elheru Aran]

Slugthrowers do exist in film canon. A Dresselian in ROTJ (the alien in the briefing room with a camo cape and wrinkly-assed face) is holding one. Bowcasters are also semi-slugthrowers, as they use a projectile, albeit one that's 'wrapped in plasma' or whatever. Of course the backstory that explicitly identifies them as such has been revoked, but they're still there.

[phred]

We also still have Tusken snipers firing at the podracers in TPM.

[NecronLord]

As easy as folks say 'looking up slugthrowers and using them' would be, there's no evidence that the stormtroopers have training in their use, they are presumably different to blasters. Certainly it would take time to come up to the proficiency of soldiers extensively trained in their use, like the SGC.

Of course, slugthrowers are not the answer to replicators. More effective, or rather less ineffectual, sure, but the Asgard didn't immediately win the war after Small Victories, so this hardly matters much; numbers and endless self-replication remain even if you can shoot some of them. Now take a look at say, Coruscant; hunting enough of them down to eliminate an established infestation there would be nearly impossible, it's simply so huge.

The issue with the replicators is that they use the Star Wars setting's own strengths; size, industrial capacity, against it.

[The Disintegrator]

The whole training issue is a valid point when it comes to implementing slugthrowers. Granted, I have no idea how complicated it is to load a blaster and set it to fire, but I know that semi-auto firearms can throw people who first start using them. Maybe it's just me, but when I first started training with the M16 it took me a little bit to get used to whole idea of having to be cognizant of where the bolt was when you inserted a magazine. It's second nature now, but it's a bit of a steep learning curve if you've got robotic spiders out to kill you. Not that that's ever happened to me.

Then there's also the issue of supplying a sufficient number of slugthrowers to your forces after the initial decision to switch to them. One would hope that the Imperial Navy is a bit more efficient in its contracting than the US military, but it'll still take a little bit of time to find the best design, get the factories going, and then deliver the weapons to the stormtroopers. And as mentioned there's then the issue of training (not that stormtroopers are stellar marksmen to begin with), and then deploying forces without getting the Star Destroyer taken over. Not too say that the empire couldn't eventually win though, it's just that the initial encounters might be a bit rough and might give the Replicators enough of a force to work with. The empire's best strategy might just be to turn the surface of any planet suspected to have replicators into slag via orbital bombardment with those really big turbolasers that the Star Destroyers have, or just drop asteroids onto the planets. And then there's always the option to just use the pretty darn fast hyperdrive to just avoid them while targeting the other races, and then worry about the Replicators after a more kinetic based force has been assembled.

Of course as mentioned, there is always that weakness to the plucky band of heroes. If it's an earlier season team with Col. O'Neil in charge it's pretty much game over for the empire by way of sarcastic wit. That or Carter supernovas a sun again.

[Themightytom]

The leadership is a really good point, later SG seasons were much more advanced but I would not say the leadership was impressive. Landry never struck me as particularly in control of the SGC when he was running it. O'Neill and Hammond both engendered more respect, with O'Neill edging out in terms of tactical duplicity ("I gave him the dead one")
If Earth is trying to stay off the Empire's radar, you really would need tight control of SG teams and the confidence of allies. Bre'Tac was concerned when Hammond was replaced, O'Neill has an asgard ship named after him and is the bane of the Goa'uld.. Landry....Landry. Landry ended his days gardening on the Odyssey, and spent his SGC tenure getting walked on by a succession of Jaffa leaders.

Earth isn't the ONLY factor in keeping the Empire out, or removing it but it's pretty key. An interesting scenario would be the Empire finding Anubis' superclone Khalek in stasis.

Also, if the scouts found an ancient repository before the galaxy at large noticed them I feel like it could become horribly one sided very fast. Or Dakara even.
"Wipe them out... all of them."

[Elheru Aran]

Also, if the scouts found an ancient repository before the galaxy at large noticed them I feel like it could become horribly one sided very fast. Or Dakara even.
"Wipe them out... all of them."

As far as we know, the Imperials are *not* going to have the Ancient Technology Activator gene, as there's no Ancients in the SW galaxy. So the repositories are going to be useless, as will anything else that requires the ATA gene such as command chairs or whatever. Anything that has a console though, they can use-- but will they understand them well enough to actually use them, is the question. Nothing in SW like that, and if they can't read Ancient, they will have zero idea that they're anything but fancy tables. Given time? They could certainly puzzle them out but otherwise it's a no-go, and they have other priorities.

Now if the SG folks decided to use Dakara against the Imperials, that could be... interesting. Bit apocalyptic. Hyperdrive into the middle of the Imperial fleet, drop a gate, hyper out and hit the button at Dakara. Poof, lots of dead Imperials.

Landry wasn't that bad; he suffered from having strong subordinates (everybody in SG1 basically) and from being the successor. We never really saw him settle into his role like Hammond did as he only had a couple of seasons to work with. If you want to be honest about it, O'Neill was no great shakes as an actual commander of the SGC either, not that he stuck around long enough to get much practice in either...

[Alyeska]

Except the EU is no longer canon. At least for the time being, it's the movies, TCW, and presumably 'Rebels'.

Yes it is. Star Wars has simply gone through a reboot. The original canon, and the new canon.

[Jub]

Except the EU is no longer canon. At least for the time being, it's the movies, TCW, and presumably 'Rebels'.

Yes it is. Star Wars has simply gone through a reboot. The original canon, and the new canon.

My reading of the new policy is that we can expect older material to be over written if they feel the need (and that much has been the case since the prequels anyway) and that we shouldn't expect to see older stories referenced. However until such a time as they come into conflict with the new material, I see no reason for older material not to remain canon.

[Simon_Jester]

I doubt we'll see the technical aspects of the EU flatly contradicted- in that they illustrate the limits of the possible, largely staying within the envelope established by the movies.

Although given the way versus-analyzers think, I suppose some random throwaway line by a scriptwriter may totally change everything, which personally I consider rather silly.

[Jub]

I doubt we'll see the technical aspects of the EU flatly contradicted- in that they illustrate the limits of the possible, largely staying within the envelope established by the movies.

Although given the way versus-analyzers think, I suppose some random throwaway line by a scriptwriter may totally change everything, which personally I consider rather silly.

It depends on how exactly things go down with future novels, shows, and movies. If they add something silly in at least the debate might get fresher while we hash things out.

[NecronLord]

While reviewing a set of ground combat videos sent over to me from Clone Wars for another project, this jumped out at me:



Just in case anyone was thinking clone troopers (well, stormtroopers) are really going to perform particularly well against replicators, or something in that size; this thing moves at quite a speed, but then, the replicator in the clip from Ark of Truth seemed to do so too, and this one is glowing. Remarkably one of the clones manages to miss the thing with a rotary cannon at short range.

Here we see quite a few misses from within a meter at a replicator sized target, certainly they don't seem trained to fight this kind of target, and Anakin actually kills it after several troopers fail to. Hardly definitive, but worth a look just as an image of what a stormtrooper vs Replicator fight would look like.

There are also a few more examples of ships being boarded without the shields being explicitly dropped, notably in cloak of darkness a venator is boarded while in battle, and taking fire from enemy ships without visible damage (so presumably its shields ere up) by separatist boarding pods. Another example of the Dune-esque slow-blade-penetrates-the-shield principle in action, also seen memorably but on a smaller scale when the jedi train the Onderon resistance fighters to roll grenades through droideka shields in A War on Two Fronts.

[NecronLord]

Another example; less useful I think, though it's worth noting that the clones don't seem to do much; R2 and Duchess Satine seem to kill most of the bugs (and it's a fair bet their methods, arcing lightning and some kind of custom anti-droid gun, wouldn't work on the replicators) for them, along with Anakin again.

However, I note that what they don't do, in either scene, is jack up the power and start blasting chunks out of the ground to try and kill indirectly.

[SilverDragonRed]

What are the weaknesses or vulnerabilities of the replicators? Would droid-poppers work against them?

[Battlegrinder]

I think that the "sic replicators on 'em" tactic has promise, but their are a couple elements about the replicators that haven't been brought up.

1. Replicators haven't been proved to be immune to energy weapons. They can shrug off a few hits from a staff weapon, yes, but that's hardly proof that sustained fire, or fire from a powerful enough weapon, won't be able to overwhelm whatever mechanism they use to absorb incoming directed energy attacks.


2. Replicator strength is based in part on what the replicator is made off. The one that tanked staff weapon fire was built from Asgarian materials, while the ones built on a captured Russian submarine corroded and shorted out in saltwater. Given how badly most SW alloys fair when taking blaster fire, replicators built from those materials might share that weakness. On the other hand, if the bugs get their claws on some Mandalorian iron or Cortosis...


3. And finally, regarding human-form replicators infiltrating the Imperial Navy.....I doubt it. The Empire's been dealing with highly capable shapeshifters for a long time, I think they're up to finding out if a given crew member is a robot or not.

[NecronLord]

What are the weaknesses or vulnerabilities of the replicators? Would droid-poppers work against them?

The version in Ark of Truth had no weakness tough projectile weapons (this is not a weakness - similar projectile weapons will kill ordinary soldiers too) were effective. Earlier versions were vulnerable to a special weapon created by the Ancients and adaped by the Asgard (the weapon used in the clip the page back).

Zat'nik'tels can disable large machines in a single hit (SG1 episode 1969, one shot disables a titan missile's engine) with some kind of electrical effect in the same manner droid poppers do. Replicators are impervious to zat'nik'tels.

I think that the "sic replicators on 'em" tactic has promise, but their are a couple elements about the replicators that haven't been brought up.

1. Replicators haven't been proved to be immune to energy weapons. They can shrug off a few hits from a staff weapon, yes, but that's hardly proof that sustained fire, or fire from a powerful enough weapon, won't be able to overwhelm whatever mechanism they use to absorb incoming directed energy attacks.

I'm not saying that they are. Being resistant to small arms fire and being flat out immune to damage are different things, and the latter is impossible. They are however, very durable and extremely numerous, and their industry is incredible.

If someone says blasters are more powerful than staff weapons, they can of course demonstrate that for us.

2. Replicator strength is based in part on what the replicator is made off. The one that tanked staff weapon fire was built from Asgarian materials, while the ones built on a captured Russian submarine corroded and shorted out in saltwater. Given how badly most SW alloys fair when taking blaster fire, replicators built from those materials might share that weakness. On the other hand, if the bugs get their claws on some Mandalorian iron or Cortosis...

No replicator has ever been shown to be destroyed by an energy weapon, even when created from say, goa'uld materials. The onus would be on you to prove that they can be destroyed by blasters.

3. And finally, regarding human-form replicators infiltrating the Imperial Navy.....I doubt it. The Empire's been dealing with highly capable shapeshifters for a long time, I think they're up to finding out if a given crew member is a robot or not.

I counter this with a canon example; by the use of shadow holograms (not unlike the things used by the foothold aliens in stargate, in fact) to impersonate senate security troopers, a group of bounty hunters were able to take The Supreme Chancellor hostage in The Clone Wars. There was clearly no routine use of personal scanning shown.

What (canon, not legends) evidence have you that such a regime of regular scanning has been introduced since?

[Simon_Jester]

2. Replicator strength is based in part on what the replicator is made off. The one that tanked staff weapon fire was built from Asgarian materials, while the ones built on a captured Russian submarine corroded and shorted out in saltwater. Given how badly most SW alloys fair when taking blaster fire, replicators built from those materials might share that weakness...

I don't know. A lot of spaceship corridor walls seem to take only light damage (surface scorching) or no damage when hit by stray blaster fire.

Things like console surfaces are easily blown apart by blasters- but those might well be made out of the equivalent of cheap plastic rather than structural steel. Hitting my computer with a baseball bat would trash it, but that doesn't mean it'd even scar the brick wall of the room I'm in.

[FaxModem1]

I still have to stress the use of Goa'uld infiltrators. What happens when a Goa'uld is able to grab a stormtrooper or fleet officer and have them detonate a thermal detonator on the bridge of a ship or in the Emperor's throne room because they're reprogrammed as a Za'tarc, the Goa'uld send in an Ashrak, or are able to put in a Goa'uld in one of these rather important people? I imagine the Empire could have a problem of trying to screen it's entire fleet for all of these. Or do they already have these in place to screen for infiltrators?

[Simon_Jester]

Again, there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence for constant, intensive screenings. Such threats exist in Star Wars, and the technology exists to counter them, but that doesn't mean it's used all the time.

[FaxModem1]

So, without prior knowledge of how the Goa'uld work, the Empire could have a problem of quite a few Admirals suddenly going crazy and declaring themselves the new empire of whatever and fighting each other, or once their review is up, jumping hosts and moving up the food chain until the Empire has a Goa'uld vs Force user fight.

[NecronLord]

There is no indication a force user can resist a goa'uld once it's inside them. Here's Bariss Ofee under the control of a brain parasite - which gets all her powers - in the Clone Wars episode Brain Invaders. This creatue has a weakness to cold environments the goa'uld lack.



Likewise in SG1, the goa'uld can control Adria, once inside her.

Note, in the episode, Ahsoka senses nothing wrong until Bariss starts acting out of character. So there's no grounds to think that a force user could sense a goa'uld.

[FaxModem1]

So, would Palpatine get a premonition that he's about to be infected, or the Galactic Empire suddenly become the Empire of Baal, Yu, Apophis or whomever is close enough to take him over?