Militarum Tempestus Scions Vs. the Enterprise-E

[Optimus Metallus]

The Scenario: A wormhole appears and a Dictator Class Cruiser captained by a Rogue Trader is sucked into it and deposited into the Star Trek universe somewhere along the Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Romulan Empire. It's then discovered by a Starfleet vessel (Let's say the Saratoga). The Rogue Trader, attempting to get his bearings and find out where he is, tries to capture the Saratoga but inadvertently blows it up with his ships guns. The Enterprise-E (Just prior to Nemesis, so Picard, Riker, Data, and Worf are all there) then comes upon the scene, so he decides to try to be more precise in his attempt to capture the opposing ship and gather information about the area of space he's been deposited in. Having a contingent of Militarum Tempestus Scions onboard (three full-strength Airborne Assault Formations), he sends their Valkyrie's against the Enterprise-E along with his Fury Interceptors in an attempt to disable the Enterprise and then board it. The forces sent against the Enterprise are as follows:

- 20 Fury Interceptors (4 squadrons)
- 12 Valkyries (Lascannons, hellstrike missiles)
- 1 Lord Commissar (Carapace armor, plasma pistol, power sword)
- 2 Commisars (Boltgun, power sword)
- 3 Militarum Tempestus Command Squads (Tempestor Prime with power fist; medi-pack, vox-caster, 2x meltaguns)
- 9 10-man Militarum Tempestus Scion Squads (Tempestor with power fist; vox-caster, 2 meltaguns)

The Commissar's each accompany one Militarum Tempestus Command Squad, and each squad is being transported on a Valkyrie. The job of the Fury Interceptors is to protect the Valkyrie's while disabling the Enterprise's shields and engines before the Scions board the ship (possibly grav-chuting from their Valkyrie's and dropping down onto the Enterprise's hull, using their mag-boots to cling to the surface, and their meltaguns and/or power fists to get through the outer hull and get inside the ship). They're then to capture the Enterprise with minimal damage inflicted on the ship and the crew. The Dictator Class Cruiser will do nothing during the engagement, as the Rogue Trader doesn't want to risk the Enterprise's destruction by using shipboard weapons, and will simply sit there and watch the proceedings and see how things go.

So what do you folks think? With those assets, can it be done? Are 20 Fury Interceptors and 12 Valkyries able to survive the Enterprise's weapons? Do they have the firepower necessary to overcome its shields? And, if so, can 108 Scions successfully board and capture a starship which features internal force fields and transporters with a crew of 600? I'm looking forward to reading your responses.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

What the fuck is a Tempestor? Is this some shit GW recently put out because Centurions and Dreadknights just weren't making 40k awful enough?

[Lord Revan]

Could explain to us who don't have the spare cash to buy every single WH40K codex what is the weaponary of a single Fury and how much there is per squad, also while the Ent-E might have a full crew of about 600 it's jack-of-all-traits Explorer so you could probably rely of only about 200-300 of the ship crew to be usefull in a fight (engineering and science departments (including medical) having little to no combat experience) against the Imperial Stormtroopers (to give the more common name for the scions).

also even those with more combat experience within the Ent-E crew tend to do tactically stupid calls often.

[Tandrax218]

damn did GW change the name of storm troopers ?? Because at first i diid not know what you were alking about

anyway

the enterprise's crew all die horribly.

the fury's take massive casualties though....

[Optimus Metallus]

Scions are just renamed Stormtroopers/Kasrkin, while Tempestors are the equivalent of their Veteran Sergeants (Although Tempestor Prime are 2 Wound HQ's). These guys:







Here're the Lexicanum entries on the relevant units:

Fury Interceptor
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fury_Interceptor

Valkyrie
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Valkyrie

Tempestus Scions
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scions

Dictator Cruiser
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dictator_Cruiser

[Lord Revan]

damn did GW change the name of storm troopers ?? Because at first i diid not know what you were alking about

anyway

the enterprise's crew all die horribly.

the fury's take massive casualties though....

yeah they gave a faux latin names to the Imperial Guard and the branch for Commisars and Stormtroopers. though IIRC the old names are still valid in-universe ways of calling those organizations it's just not the official name (kind of like no-one calls the CIA the Central Intelligance Agency even though that's the official name).

[Optimus Metallus]

Could explain to us who don't have the spare cash to buy every single WH40K codex what is the weaponary of a single Fury and how much there is per squad

20 Fury Interceptors total, each armed with a number of lascannons as depicted in the image below and 4 anti-starfighter missiles.



In addition, there're 12 Valkyries each armed with 1 lascannon and hellstrike missiles. So basically, can lascannons overcome the shields on the Enterprise-E?

[bilateralrope]

damn did GW change the name of storm troopers ?? Because at first i diid not know what you were alking about

anyway

the enterprise's crew all die horribly.

the fury's take massive casualties though....

Question is, will they capture the Enterprise or would a stray shot set off the warp core ?

[Lord Revan]

damn did GW change the name of storm troopers ?? Because at first i diid not know what you were alking about

anyway

the enterprise's crew all die horribly.

the fury's take massive casualties though....

Question is, will they capture the Enterprise or would a stray shot set off the warp core ?

though this is Ent-E we're talking about, which is far less likely to blow up unless you hit the core itself. In Nemesis the Enterprise took several major hits and lost most of the front end of the saucer section without the warpcore doing critical.

[Optimus Metallus]

Here're a couple questions:

1) Can lascannon fire overcome the shields on the Enterprise-E?
2) Can the Scions be contained with force fields, or are their power fists/meltaguns/Krak grenades powerful enough to take down those force fields?
3) If they aren't, can they use their power fists/meltaguns/Krak grenades to carve a path through the bulkheads instead? And can those be protected with force fields?
4) Can the Scions, using their mag-boots, simply walk along the outer hull of the Enterprise-E until they get to the bridge up top?
5) Can the Enterprise crew use their transporters to beam the Scions into space as they board the ship? If so, is there anything the Scions can do to counteract this? And if there is, will they be able to react quickly enough to prevent their entire force being beamed into space? The Enterprise-E has four transporter rooms. Would those be enough to remove the entire Scion boarding party before they're potentially overrun or otherwise disabled?

[Simon_Jester]

Here're a couple questions:

1) Can lascannon fire overcome the shields on the Enterprise-E?

How big a laser are we talking about here? For reference, IF I remember the best calculations I've seen, then a photon torpedo is nastier than a megaton-range fusion bomb, but not more than about an of magnitude nastier. Star Trek shielding can usually absorb one or two photon torpedoes without falling apart.

2) Can the Scions be contained with force fields, or are their power fists/meltaguns/Krak grenades powerful enough to take down those force fields?

OK, well I'm going to call them stormtroopers because "Militarum Tempestus Scions" sounds incredibly stupid. Power fists are explicitly force field breaching tools, that's part of why they have power fields in the first place. It'd come down to a test of which set of force fields blows out first. Star Trek technology is usually relatively sensitive to interference, so my money's on the power fist.

Direct energy transfer from antitank weapons (i.e. meltaguns) might work to knock down the force field, but there's a risk of backblast killing the stormtroopers if they're working in a confined space. Same reason you don't use a bazooka in close combat.

3) If they aren't, can they use their power fists/meltaguns/Krak grenades to carve a path through the bulkheads instead? And can those be protected with force fields?

Probably, and yes; the Enterprise-D routinely used force fields to seal hull breaches and I see no reason to assume the Enterprise-E doesn't have that capability.

4) Can the Scions, using their mag-boots, simply walk along the outer hull of the Enterprise-E until they get to the bridge up top?

Probably, but if the bridge crew detects the intruders (and they do have means to monitor events on the hull), they can relocate to a backup command center via the turbolift faster than the stormtroopers can EVA their way to the bridge section. At least in principle.

Also, I'm not entirely sure the bridge module is as exposed as you think. Maybe, but not sure. Cutting through the (somewhat armored) outer hull is going to take time for the stormtroopers, though they do probably have weapons capable of doing it, and they're already inside the shield bubble around the ship.

5) Can the Enterprise crew use their transporters to beam the Scions into space as they board the ship?

I don't see why not. It's not common, but the technology to beam people around point-to-point within the ship definitely exists.

If so, is there anything the Scions can do to counteract this? And if there is, will they be able to react quickly enough to prevent their entire force being beamed into space?

Almost certainly yes, and in my honest assessment no. At least not on the first try.

The stormtroopers' best bet is to act so decisively that the Enterprise's command staff has no time to order such a maneuver, or no time for the transporter crews to localize and lock onto the intruders. They stand a chance of doing this- not such a good chance of countering the maneuver once it's being used against them. IF they had time to think about countermoves, and to consult with the techpriests, there are probably a number of things a 40k technical expert could whip up to foil the sensor lock of a Star Trek transporter, or make beaming "impossible;" we've certainly encountered a variety of anomalies and interference that disrupt transporter operations in the setting.

The Enterprise-E has four transporter rooms. Would those be enough to remove the entire Scion boarding party before they're potentially overrun or otherwise disabled?

Very possibly. Teleporters are a thing in 40k, but they aren't as flexible as Star Trek transporters, so it may not occur to the stormtroopers that the transporter rooms are a primary target until 24 of their men are abruptly beamed into space. Moreover, it doesn't sound like the stormtroopers actually know the ship's internal layout that well, so they may not be able to find said transporter rooms in a hurry.

[NecronLord]

Here're a couple questions:

1) Can lascannon fire overcome the shields on the Enterprise-E?

This seems unlikely, at least for small ships, I did a calc on meltaguns, a similar 40K high strength weapons, as double digit GJ/shot back in the day. Mike's phaser analysis puts the shielding capacity of ST ships as around 30,000 to 40,000 TW. So a hundred thousand times greater than meltaguns easily. While not all lascannons are created equal, anyone saying they can take down the enterprise must demonstrate that they are operating in the thousand terawatt range.

2) Can the Scions be contained with force fields, or are their power fists/meltaguns/Krak grenades powerful enough to take down those force fields?

If they know what they're doing, yes, on the other had, setting off grendes in a confined space is not generally a thing you do if you want to live.

3) If they aren't, can they use their power fists/meltaguns/Krak grenades to carve a path through the bulkheads instead? And can those be protected with force fields?

Yes they can be protected by force fields.

4) Can the Scions, using their mag-boots, simply walk along the outer hull of the Enterprise-E until they get to the bridge up top?

What mag boots?

5) Can the Enterprise crew use their transporters to beam the Scions into space as they board the ship? If so, is there anything the Scions can do to counteract this?

Yes and no, respectively.

[Lord Revan]

first use the term stormtrooper it's what people are more familiar with

1)depends of the firepower of the Lascannon
2)I don't think I've ever seen an interior force field being overpowered in ST, however they're rarely if ever use to contain borders also have (or at least Ent-D had) power conduits placed in such a way that you could easily disable the shield without overpowering it
3)probably so though it might take a while and forcefields have as far as I can remember only used to seal a hull breach not to protect interior walls
4)as far as I know there's no defenses against borders on the hull and you can use magnets to attach yourself to the hull
5)probably not as transporters are rather easily to block even unintentionally.

the thing is that for the most part the Ent-E crew isn't experienced with the bitter eternal war that a normal day for the Imperium of man, so alot of the tactics like blocking intruders with forcefields or beaming them to spare (or simply using the transporters as a disintegration beam) will not be something they'll think up first while they might think of them eventually it might be too late by then.

the most likely counter in case of borders would to send a security team armed with mark 2 hand phasers or possibly some rifles depending on how long it took to take down the shields, if the Enterprise knowns it's heading to situation where hostile bording parties are likely to happen the security teams would all have rifles (like in Nemesis)

the thing is that your average stormtrooper will have at the very least flak armor and a lasgun, more likely carapace armor and a hellgun and body armor had been shown to be effective against phasers, so it might take several shots or higher settings to take out a Stormtrooper, while even a lasgun will make short work of any opposition (who at this time frame aren't wearing bodyarmor), all this giving an advantage to the Imperials as the Ent-E crew will need time to adjust to the situation

[Simon_Jester]

Here're a couple questions:

1) Can lascannon fire overcome the shields on the Enterprise-E?

This seems unlikely, at least for small ships, I did a calc on meltaguns, a similar 40K high strength weapons, as double digit GJ/shot back in the day. Mike's phaser analysis puts the shielding capacity of ST ships as around 30,000 to 40,000 TW. So a hundred thousand times greater than meltaguns easily. While not all lascannons are created equal, anyone saying they can take down the enterprise must demonstrate that they are operating in the thousand terawatt range.

Well, a shipboard lascannon is a whole different issue, but no, man-portable 40k laser cannon are not powerful enough to bring down the shielding of Star Trek capital ships. Nor are the laser cannon on a typical vehicle. Titan-class weapons might be another story, I dunno.

The laser weapons on large 40k fighters might actually present a problem, in sufficient numbers. But I don't think a few dozen is likely to be sufficient numbers... though it might be.

5) Can the Enterprise crew use their transporters to beam the Scions into space as they board the ship? If so, is there anything the Scions can do to counteract this?

Yes and no, respectively.

To be fair, they don't seem to do this effortlessly when the ship gets boarded, so it would probably take time to set up and specific orders from the command staff. So there's at least a chance of the boarders acting fast and decisively enough to bypass such a defensive measure, assuming they can get into the ship in time.

[NecronLord]

Which, being frank, they can't. Furies are no threat to the Enterprise whatsoever. The enterprise effectively has the firepower of tens of thousands of lascannons.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah, I couldn't remember whether the Fury was a "tabletop-scale" vehicle with lascannons of firepower comparable to man-portable weapons, or if it had firepower more on the scale of Titans and other such superheavy vehicles. Even then, twenty of the things really would be hard pressed to handle a single target that can take sustained bombardment in the single digit megatons per second.

[Borgholio]

Not an expert on 40k by any means, but aren't even the merchant ships of the Imperium armed to the teeth? Once they realize that the fighters would be unable to breach the Enterprises' shields, what's to stop them from just blowing it up?

[NecronLord]

Attrition applies, too. With every shot the Enterprise can diminish their firepower, while they can't penetrate the Enterprise's shields in a reasonable timeframe to diminish its firepower.

[NecronLord]

Not an expert on 40k by any means, but aren't even the merchant ships of the Imperium armed to the teeth? Once they realize that the fighters would be unable to breach the Enterprises' shields, what's to stop them from just blowing it up?

Because that wasn't the question asked; the rogue trader's ship can obviously destroy any starfleet ship, but these specific forces are going to get slaughtered.

[bilateralrope]

Not an expert on 40k by any means, but aren't even the merchant ships of the Imperium armed to the teeth? Once they realize that the fighters would be unable to breach the Enterprises' shields, what's to stop them from just blowing it up?

In this scenario, blowing up the Enterprise is a loss for the Rogue Trader.

[Borgholio]

Are the gunners on a typical rogue trader accurate enough to take down the Enterprise's shields with low-yield shots so they can board?

[NecronLord]

Unknown. And really it's not the question that was asked. The question asked is 'can the Scions board successfully with this equipment' and the answer is an uncategoric 'no.'

[Rogue 9]

4) Can the Scions, using their mag-boots, simply walk along the outer hull of the Enterprise-E until they get to the bridge up top?

What mag boots?

One of the fluff pieces in the new Codex: Storm Troopers (I refuse to use the stupid new name they came up with) talks about them boarding an Ork vessel in much the same manner as described here, and walking along the hull with magnetic boots (and driving along the hull with the magnetic tracks on their stupid-looking transports) to reach and sabotage the engines. So it's equipment they assuredly have, and this sort of thing is something they do. But since the canon piece talks about them boarding an Ork warship it might not demonstrate the capability they'd need to board the Enterprise, since Ork technology is notoriously spotty at best.

[NecronLord]

Thanks for that, I've not read most of the recent codexes, I should do that some time soon.

[Rogue 9]

Also, to be clear, if they get onto the hull the Enterprise is fucked. The problem is getting there. The Enterprise's shields are consistent in a way that Ork power fields are not.