Militarum Tempestus Scions Vs. the Enterprise-E

[NecronLord]

Assuming it doesn't just warp jump into proximity of the nearest star or skim a planetary atmosphere to get rid of them before they get inside. On the hull doesn't mean they're safe.

SOLIS: Hull temperature one thousand degrees and rising. [...]SOLIS: Thirty-three hundred degrees.

Even assuming that's kelvins, that's likely to be like being roasted by a flamer. Carapace is good, but it's not that good, and even then, thermal dissipation applies, it would just conduct the heat into their bodies.

TAITT: Sir, hull temperature is rising ... now at 12 thousand degrees C. Radiation level is nearing ten thousand rads.

And if they try and cut their way in, how are they going to get through the hull integrity fields that pop up immediately? Those fields pop up automatically even after the first borg cupe cuts a giant core out of the ship. You can meltabomb it all you like, you're just going to be left with a force field to try and get through.

Even if they do get in:

O'BRIEN: Confinement mode.

RO: Right. Isolation protocol.

TROI: I'm... not really familiar with that protocol.

O'BRIEN: If the computer senses a hull breach, it automatically closes emergency bulkheads to isolate the breach. Until we can clear those bulkheads, we'll be cut off from the rest of the ship.

They need to get inside and even then, response begins automatically, which is important.

[NecronLord]

TUVOK: Main computer core is failing. Switching to back up processors.
(Bang!)
JANEWAY: Chakotay, are you ready to magnetise the hull?
CHAKOTAY: Stand by. I'm having trouble with the alignment module.
JANEWAY: Try remodulating the field emitters.
(Bang! Janeway is knocked down.)
JANEWAY: Chakotay!
CHAKOTAY: I've got alignment. Magnetising the hull.

Another way they could deal with it, this seems to take a few minutes, but if they're outside and you're inside, you can always magnetise the hull; they have emitters for that.

Assuming there's any worthwhile field at all (and they expected this thing to protect against proton bursts that ripped bits off the hull, so there should be) at the very least, it means the magboots will be rooted in place, IE the scions will not be able to take a step; and you just try lifting a lasgun in a high powered magnetic field. Not to mention the likelihood that it will damage their equipment or pull puts off their space suits.

Polarized hull plating has also been used to attempt to resist tractor beams which may indicate an ability to exert an outward push against things on the hull, letting them punt the scions off into space. (DS9 E5 S14 In Purgatory's Shadow)

[Rogue 9]

Actually, the Orks they boarded in the codex piece did magnetize their hull, so that their mega-armored Nobs could walk out to go crump da humiez and the storm troopers were stuck. They dealt with this by having their gunship blow up the pylons that were letting the Orks do that, a solution unavailable against the Enterprise.

Also, Federation starships don't tend to be heavily armored, relying instead on their shields and hull integrity fields. They could probably cut their way inside fairly quickly with melta weaponry once on the hull. I just don't think they can get there.

[NecronLord]

Containment fields respond to hull breaches automatically, and within a short period of time. I don't think you're likely to get through them very easily.

In any case, they can't get through the shields, so how it turns out it really depends how smart the starfleet crew are, certainly the smart thing to do would be to keep them out with the shields, disable their ships, or simply take one of the Valks under tow via tractor beam and warp off, turn it around with your tractor beambeam one of the guys out under transporter protocol 5 (the one that identifies and removes weapons) and take them into custody for interrogation.

Proceed from there.

[Lord Revan]

btw is there any indication if the forcefields respond to presure loss or simply to damage on the hull?

[Jub]

The crew of the Enterprise can also use the classic up the artificial gravity trick. Your gun doesn't do much good when you can't move enough to aim it.

[NecronLord]

The crew of the Enterprise can also use the classic up the artificial gravity trick. Your gun doesn't do much good when you can't move enough to aim it.

I don't recall them ever demonstrating that capacity. Even when it would be useful.

[Crazedwraith]

The crew of the Enterprise can also use the classic up the artificial gravity trick. Your gun doesn't do much good when you can't move enough to aim it.

I don't recall them ever demonstrating that capacity. Even when it would be useful.

The Constitution class could as seen in ENT's "In A Mirror Darkly". (It was an normal universe ship, the USS Defiant, that had crossed over), whether later vessels retained the capability...

[Lord Revan]

The crew of the Enterprise can also use the classic up the artificial gravity trick. Your gun doesn't do much good when you can't move enough to aim it.

I don't recall them ever demonstrating that capacity. Even when it would be useful.

the thing is the Enterprise crew be it Nil A, B, C, D or E has shown very little tactical flexibility so they tend not to use tactics that they should be able to use as far as technology or skills are conserned, though sometimes they do get inventive when dealing with the "threat of the week" they rarely try to apply previously used tactics that have worked into similar situation.

[Simon_Jester]

Also, Federation starships don't tend to be heavily armored, relying instead on their shields and hull integrity fields. They could probably cut their way inside fairly quickly with melta weaponry once on the hull. I just don't think they can get there.

First of all, "lightly armored" against starship weapons that typically punch in the kiloton range or above is not the same as "lightly armored" against man-portable weapons. Unless the stormtroopers are planning to fetch along a nuclear shaped charge or antimatter epaulet bomb or something similarly insane, they may not be able to cut through the hull quickly.

Second of all, the obvious problem is that even if you do breach the hull, force field systems tend to react quickly to prevent air loss or other consequences. For all I know, the structural integrity field can even act like the self-sealing agent on a self-sealing fuel tank and plug up a relatively small hull breach by providing "integrity" even in the absence of a hull to reinforce...

I don't recall them ever demonstrating that capacity. Even when it would be useful.

the thing is the Enterprise crew be it Nil A, B, C, D or E has shown very little tactical flexibility so they tend not to use tactics that they should be able to use as far as technology or skills are conserned, though sometimes they do get inventive when dealing with the "threat of the week" they rarely try to apply previously used tactics that have worked into similar situation.

This is actually a relevant point, and arguably the one thing that provides the stormtroopers with a chance. The crew of the Enterprise-E will probably be relatively slow to comprehend the full nature of the threat, slow to give up trying to negotiate with it, and reactive rather than proactive in coming up with countermeasures.

Their skill set is really much more useful in the face of a threat that isn't unambiguously hostile, murderous, and out to kill them. They're pretty good at stuff like that- but a relentless enemy gives them problems, and it usually takes them time to switch gears. Even when they do, they have a limited playbook for dealing with such threats, and tend not to amend 'the book' to deal with new and different threats.

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of getting through the shields, do/can the Furies cary anti antiship missiles? The lascannons won't be much use but 40K-grade antiship missiles should be more effective against the shields.

As for getting in, why not try going through the shuttle bays? IIRC the forcefields in the bays only keep atmosphere in so you don't have to depressurize to launch and recover shuttles. Then at least you're inside the hull and can start moving in different directions (through the doors,through the floor, through the walls, etc.). Plus, if you sealed the breached doors behind you the computer wouldn't automatically raise forcefields when you blow through the doors and/or walls since there is no hull breach to seal off.

[SilverDragonRed]

Fury Interceptors are only armed with two lascannons and four anti-fighter missiles. They are not capable of taking on capships, just fighters and starbombers.

[Optimus Metallus]

So the general consensus is that the Fury Interceptor is totally useless against the Enterprise-E? D'OH! How boring! How about if we changed it a bit? Instead of 4 squadrons of Fury Interceptors, we made it 2 squadrons of Fury Interceptors and 2 squadrons of Starhawk Bombers? That's something which the Rogue Trader is more likely to have than just Fury Interceptors, at any rate.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Starhawk_Bomber

So the Imperial forces would then be as follows...

- 10 Fury Interceptors (2 squadrons)
- 10 Starhawk Bombers (2 squadrons)
- 12 Valkyries (Lascannons, hellstrike missiles)
- 1 Lord Commissar (Carapace armor, plasma pistol, power sword)
- 2 Commisars (Boltgun, power sword)
- 3 Militarum Tempestus Command Squads (Tempestor Prime with power fist; medi-pack, vox-caster, 2x meltaguns)
- 9 10-man Militarum Tempestus Scion Squads (Tempestor with power fist; vox-caster, 2 meltaguns)

Also, here's how a Krak grenade works.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Krak_Grenade

And a meltagun.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Meltagun

[Simon_Jester]

So... basically a krak grenade is an antitank shaped charge that you emplace on the target by hand, and a meltagun is a big nasty energy weapon gun that runs on technobabble. Okay, we already knew that.

Adding the bombers might well give the boarding party the multimegaton firepower they'd realistically need in order to pose a significant threat to the Enterprise, and possibly damage it enough that it can be boarded by the stormtroopers. At which point a lot depends on how the Enterprise reacts to the threat. Do they go to warp to escape the swarm of approaching small craft? Do they use phasers or photon torpedoes to thin out the attacking bombers? Hard to say, depends on the details of the scenario up to that point.

[Borgholio]

Do the fighters and bombers have void shields or do only capital ships possess them?

[Optimus Metallus]

So... basically a krak grenade is an antitank shaped charge that you emplace on the target by hand, and a meltagun is a big nasty energy weapon gun that runs on technobabble. Okay, we already knew that.

I was just pointing that out, as I read a comment by you comparing it to a bazooka, when a meltagun is a more close range weapon, and a comment about the potential danger of a Krak grenade in a confined space by another poster, so I thought the links might be useful.

Do the fighters and bombers have void shields or do only capital ships possess them?

Judging from their Lexicanum entries, I don't think so.

EDIT: I found a source saying the Starhawk Bomber has a single void shield. I'll get back to you on that.

[NecronLord]

Still a failure. If they fire a single starhawk's munitions at the Enterprise, it's gone, there won't be enough of it left to fill a thimble. These things, in squadrons can destroy 40K ships, and there's no indications they have dial-a-yeild. So, it is a failure to board.

[andrewgpaul]

The Fury interceptor is explicitly described as being unable to noticeably damage 40k capital ships (and is "100 paces" long, IIRC), but how do they compare to Federation ships? The lascannon used by infantry can drop the void shields and power shields which protect titans. I think the guns on the Fury are larger/more poweful, but I admit I'm not 100% on that.

I would think the spacegoing fighters and bombers have void shields, since they're many times larger than Titans and superheavy vehicles which mount such things, but again, speculation.

[Lord Revan]

bare mind that Ent can take a quite of pounding without blowing up, it's not like GCS1 that blew up if you looked at them meanly.

[NecronLord]

A squadron of ten starhawks can damage a ship built to take continent flattening firepower; we're talking gigaton upon gigaton. No federation ship can take that.

[Optimus Metallus]

Still a failure. If they fire a single starhawk's munitions at the Enterprise, it's gone, there won't be enough of it left to fill a thimble. These things, in squadrons can destroy 40K ships, and there's no indications they have dial-a-yeild. So, it is a failure to board.

Hmm, that's what I suspected. That's why I initially made them all Fury Interceptors in the scenario, as I was worried the Starhawk Bombers might be a bit too much.

The Fury interceptor is explicitly described as being unable to noticeably damage 40k capital ships (and is "100 paces" long, IIRC), but how do they compare to Federation ships? The lascannon used by infantry can drop the void shields and power shields which protect titans. I think the guns on the Fury are larger/more poweful, but I admit I'm not 100% on that.

Yeah, that was my initial thought. I tried to look around and see what sort of power the standard infantry lascannon produced, but I couldn't find any numbers, so I was hoping someone who knew would come along and mention something, and if whether the fighter and starship mounted lascannons were more powerful or not.

I would think the spacegoing fighters and bombers have void shields, since they're many times larger than Titans and superheavy vehicles which mount such things, but again, speculation.

I haven't been able to find any evidence of their having them beyond the one link (which looked like a poster quoting an official source, but I haven't been able to find an official source), so that one's up in the air, with the answer probably leaning towards "no.".

[Simon_Jester]

It seems likely that the Starhawk does have, potentially, munitions capable of hitting harder than the kiloton-level weapons that would be ineffectual against the Enterprise, but less hard than the gigaton-level weapons that would annihilate it. They are periodically called on to provide space to surface bombardment, after all, right?

Note that the Enterprise has valid defensive responses- the main one being to go to warp and escape the attack, but that's a tactic that won't work indefinitely and won't achieve any of Picard's objectives other than "survive."

[NecronLord]

It seems likely that the Starhawk does have, potentially, munitions capable of hitting harder than the kiloton-level weapons that would be ineffectual against the Enterprise, but less hard than the gigaton-level weapons that would annihilate it. They are periodically called on to provide space to surface bombardment, after all, right?

No, they are not. The Imperial Navy runs separate lines of bombers for engaging surface targets, the Marauder bomber can be used against space targets in a pinch, but there's no evidence that a munition between 'obliterate the Enterprise with hilarious overkill' and 'be combat-ineffective' exists AFAIK.

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. That honestly surprises me. If nothing else because there are smaller targets in the setting that would profitably be engaged by a smaller munition.

It might be possible to use extremely large warheads but set them to detonate very far from Enterprise, thus causing damage from proximity to the explosion but transferring only a small fraction of the warhead's force to her hull.

[NecronLord]

Generally, the smaller something is, the further it needs to be away from a bomb to be safe; IE they'd have to have their unshielded Valkyries some distance away, and then approach the Enterprise.

Hoping that it is:
1. Obliging enough to stay still.
2. Unable to shoot them down.
3. Unable to restore the shield.


Frankly, even 'let's not provoke them' Picard is known to retaliate with photon torpedos.