Militarum Tempestus Scions Vs. the Enterprise-E

[Simon_Jester]

Well. I wouldn't be surprised if they DO have the capability, but I suppose I cannot prove that they have it. Aside from that idea, though...

The reason that I'm suggesting all these things is that the Imperium doesn't need to be innovative to think of them. They don't need to be innovative to have 'medium' weapons that are designed to be fired at 'small' targets, in order to avoid wasting energy on huge munitions that are total overkill on such vulnerable targets. They don't need to be innovative to, say, try to sneak a teleport homer onto the bad guys' ship if they get a chance. These are things they do on a regular basis, and have the technology to do.

A teleport homer is not an easily hideable piece of kit.

Official model, comes with the terminator kit shown. You can't exactly hide that behind a console. Even getting it on board is going to be a bit iffy. It ain't like the transmitter in Attack of the Clones.

Also, why are you assuming a rogue trader ship has a teleporter? In the Rogue Trader RPG, they're a rare archeotech component and you can only get one such component starting out.

Short answer: please pardon my ignorance, someone else suggested it as though it might work, and I am not as massively keenly familiar with all the relevant sourcebooks. I don't know if the tabletop size of a teleport homer is realistic, or whether they are highly unavailable; all I know is that the 40k books I've read have them being used for insertions of special forces onto enemy ships and so on. Sure, they may not be available on every ship or in every condition, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Oh yes, it's a last minute solution, after the shields got knocked out... absolutely 110% like the situation described where a proximity blast (an unseen tactic for IoM bombers) has disabled the shields and theenemy is closing in then? Picard is slow to react to danger, until an actual crisis occurs, which is exactly what's being proposed.

Well, given that even the proximity blast tactic is going to involve overkill, there is a high probability that after the missiles go off the ship will be too damaged to enter warp in a hurry- unless the Enterprise jumps out in a hurry.. Also, unlike Stargazer it won't already be at warp, which may or may not affect the time required to engage the warp drive.

Someone provide evidence that the IoM is capable of fusing its bombs for proximity blast to precisely take out the shields of an enemy ship that are a fraction of the power of those they're used to, if you're going to argue this is probable.

I suggested it as a possibility that they could do so, expecting it to be a messy, imprecise, and inefficient way of going about it. You end up expending many powerful munitions to do a job that would more effectively be done by one or two far less powerful munitions, and you'd inflict a lot of random unwanted damage on the target.

I don't know if it's probable, it was a suggestion, an attempt to think slightly outside the box using capabilities that it would hardly be surprising if Imperium weapons did have, such as "tell missile to fly to this specific point in space, then explode."

I am specifically irritated that people keep attempting to consider the most effective possible way for the Rogue Trader to act, without considering the probability of him acting this way, while the Starfleet faction are all considered to be acting in a manner consistent with their least effective traits in the show.

Well, assuming we accept the basic scenario in the RAR, the trader already knows he's faced with a puzzle: how to disable and board a relatively fragile ship, that is nevertheless armed and powered on a scale such that it can defeat a casual attempt by small craft to board it.

Use of heavy antiship munitions in proximity roles is not the only thing he might try. I suppose in theory it might even be impossible though that beggars my imagination. But it's the kind of thing he might try.

Maybe his ship has secondary antifighter or anticorvette guns that are designed to engage relatively small targets, and which he can fire at Enterprise without obliterating it. Maybe his ship's "anti-starfighter" missiles are actually megaton-range weapons designed to blow away fighters a hundred meters long made out of 40k hull and armor materials... in which case they're a credible threat to Enterprise. Maybe he has other means of attack I haven't thought of yet.

But assuming he's even going to try to fulfill the stated objective, he's got to come up with some way to hurt a starship that is probably too big and nasty to be killed by fighters alone.

Ok, then what's the threshold for "too innovative?" The torpedo thing was certainly a bit beyond 40k's playbook, but just popping open the fighter bay doors and shooting? I'm pretty sure "make nice and then hit them when they least expect it" is probably within the scope of allowable 40K tactical ploys.

Something suggested or shown in an official source.

If you're saying the Imperium is so inflexible that the Rogue Traders can't even do "pretend to be friendly then stab the other guy in the back..."



I think you're trying too hard to find HARD CANON for absolutely everything ever this week.

If, for the sake of argument, we credit both sides here with an IQ higher than the average grapefruit...

Picard and crew's best bet is to recognize the threat and escape before a trap closes on them. The rogue trader's best bet is to lay a convincing enough trap that he can actually get in a crippling (but not annihilating) first shot.

Picard and crew have a problem here in that most of their experience is with traps and threats where they gradually escalate their response, running or fighting just a little harder and harder at a time until they ultimately succeed or fail on the strength of a maximum-effort operation. They're not quite so used to opposition that hits them with a pure, overwhelming alpha strike first, although the Dominion is sort of like that. The more time they have to analyze the situation accurately, the more effectively they will react.

The rogue trader has the problem that most of his weapons are either too small or too large to achieve the desired effect. So if he wants to set an ambush, he either has to do something goofy like sneak his stormtroopers aboard the Enterprise with a huge bomb that goes off if they let go of the dead man switch... or he has to use overpowered weapons to only disable a fragile target, which is sort of like trying to only disable a small bird with a shotgun.

[NecronLord]

If, for the sake of argument, we credit both sides here with an IQ higher than the average grapefruit...

I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is people assuming the Rogue Trader, who is after all from a society known to carve 'IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH' on its battleships in hundred foot high illuminated letters, is going to be really smart, and that the UFP folks are going to kneel down, facing away and spreading their ass cheeks.

It's not that I object to the assumption that the Rogue Trader can be smart, I object to the assumption that he can be smart while the Enterprise crew are going to be dumb.

So if he wants to set an ambush, he either has to do something goofy like sneak his stormtroopers aboard the Enterprise with a huge bomb that goes off if they let go of the dead man switch... or he has to use overpowered weapons to only disable a fragile target, which is sort of like trying to only disable a small bird with a shotgun.

Precisely. Taking the ship intact requires a goofy plan, because in actual 40K it is normally done either with assault boats (which most rogue traders do not have, and rely on flying through the enemy shields), boarding torpedos (ditto) or teleporters (have to bring the shield down first, even with a teleport homer). None of those has a great chance of success.

[Simon_Jester]

If, for the sake of argument, we credit both sides here with an IQ higher than the average grapefruit...

I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is people assuming the Rogue Trader, who is after all from a society known to carve 'IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH' on its battleships in hundred foot high illuminated letters, is going to be really smart, and that the UFP folks are going to kneel down, facing away and spreading their ass cheeks.

It's not that I object to the assumption that the Rogue Trader can be smart, I object to the assumption that he can be smart while the Enterprise crew are going to be dumb.

Well, let's break this down a little more.

The Enterprise crew will be smart, but may be slow to react at first. The more indication Picard has that it was in fact the rogue trader's ship that attacked the Saratoga, the less slow those reactions will be. It also depends on the types of gambit the rogue trader attempts to use*; gambits that play into Picard's expectations like "aliens are normally peaceful if not provoked" are more likely to at least have a chance of luring him into a false sense of security.

Once Picard fully grasps the nature of the situation, he will begin to act decisively and fairly effectively- the question is whether the rogue trader can exploit his advantage of overwhelming firepower and create a clever enough gambit or strategem to entrap Enterprise before Picard works out the proper defensive counter.

*(There almost have to be some gambits; rogue traders may be inflexible Imperium subjects but they invariably have a long history of negotiating, bluffing, or manipulating their way through complex situations).

So if he wants to set an ambush, he either has to do something goofy like sneak his stormtroopers aboard the Enterprise with a huge bomb that goes off if they let go of the dead man switch... or he has to use overpowered weapons to only disable a fragile target, which is sort of like trying to only disable a small bird with a shotgun.

Precisely. Taking the ship intact requires a goofy plan, because in actual 40K it is normally done either with assault boats (which most rogue traders do not have, and rely on flying through the enemy shields), boarding torpedos (ditto) or teleporters (have to bring the shield down first, even with a teleport homer). None of those has a great chance of success.

Fair enough.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Something just struck me. Why would they even need to capture the E-E by direct means? If the system is inhabitated, threaten to bombard the population unless Picard surrenders.

Or, tell them that in Imperial society, Earth is sacred and they are on a pilgrimage to see it. Once they arrive, hold the planet to ransom. There are any number of potentially successful options that do not require opening fire.

Hell, Hell, ask to discuss the situation in person. If Picard or anyone else (because it will be a main cast member) comes aboard, capture and interrogate for information. I

[Lord Revan]

something we should remember is that content of the distress call will be a major factor in determining how the Enterprise crew will act. If the Saratoga was able to transmit a fully detailed scans of the enemy and that they're openly hostile and a peaceful solution is not an option, the Enterprise crew will more vary and ready for a fight then if the content of the message was just essentially "under attack" and cuts before any details can be given.

[Sidewinder]

Regarding teleport homers in WH40K: In 'Black Dawn', a short story in the Victories of the Space Marines collection, a Rogue Trader had a teleport homer disguised as a pocket watch, meaning it CAN be easily hidden.

It should also be noted, however, that the Rogue Trader was aiding an Inquisitor in an operation; the pocket watch-sized teleport homer may be an archeotech artifact that is difficult to acquire or maintain, even for Space Marines.

[Sidewinder]

[In] the Horus Heresy novels Vulkan Lives and The Unremembered Empire... Vulkan managed to steal Dawnbringer, a thunder hammer originally intended as a gift for Horus with teleportation function included. The hammer teleported Vulkan off the [Night Lords battleship] Nightfall... and sent him to Macragge.

[Elheru Aran]

[In] the Horus Heresy novels Vulkan Lives and The Unremembered Empire... Vulkan managed to steal Dawnbringer, a thunder hammer originally intended as a gift for Horus with teleportation function included. The hammer teleported Vulkan off the [Night Lords battleship] Nightfall... and sent him to Macragge.

A thunder-hammer scaled for a Primarch is *not* going to be a small item.

[Metahive]

*wrong thread, please delete*

[Eternal_Freedom]

Plus a fancy piece of tech made by one Primarch for another Primarch ten thousand years ago is not a good indicator of what is available to a Rogue Trader.

[Lord Revan]

Regarding teleport homers in WH40K: In 'Black Dawn', a short story in the Victories of the Space Marines collection, a Rogue Trader had a teleport homer disguised as a pocket watch, meaning it CAN be easily hidden.

It should also be noted, however, that the Rogue Trader was aiding an Inquisitor in an operation; the pocket watch-sized teleport homer may be an archeotech artifact that is difficult to acquire or maintain, even for Space Marines.

there's also a line about the demon "chageling"giving a traitor governor an item that would end the siege against his palace by the Dark Angels and while item wasn't described in detail the wording seemed imply it was so small you could easily hold it in your hand and the item in question was a teleport homer stolen from the jetbite of the master of the Ravenwing.

[Alkaloid]

Honestly, this whole scenario is a little screwy.

Lets start with why the fuck there are 3 commissars and a contingent on a Rogue traders vessel. rogue traders and the commie/stormies come from literally the opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. Commissars and storm troopers are all about sticking to the imperial creed in the face of all odds. They don't negotiate with aliens, they don't tolerate humans that don't worship the emperor. They shoot them in the head and get on with their day. RTs are the imperiums tacit admission that sometimes you have to give a little to get a little. They'll hire aliens, they'll be hired out to aliens, they'll use xenotech and they'll truck around with heretics. They probably aren't wild about daemons, but in large part because they are some of the few people that know what and how dangerous they are.

Most commisars wouldn't last a week before they get fragged by the RTs armsmen when he threatens to shoot one of them/their captain for doing what it is that they do. Yet there are at least 3 on this ship whilst there are entire subsectors and fleets that are only assigned a single commissar to oversee them. Frankly it's more likely he has a contingent of space marines aboard.

That said, I'm willing to buy that a rogue traders elite armsmen are at least as well trained and equipped (of not more so) than stormies, so assuming that...

Short of talking his way aboard with a few bodyguards, sneaking guns on as well and trashing the bridge with a plasma pistol, his best bet is probably to use the starhawks to pin the Enterprise in place while he moves his flagshi in close enough to grappel/board without needing assault boats. Consensus seems to be the E isn't going to survive more than 1 hit from a starhawk, so they should be able to split up and heard the E in close enough fairly well, especially if they have the furies mixed in to provide more targets for the Enterprises guns. Then the flagship just needs to tank whatever the E can throw at it, which it should be able to, come along side and either rip them up with point defence guns until there's a breach or, if we think that's to much, a nice, controlled sideswipe/ram and come pouring out the airlocks.

[NecronLord]

That's actually not a bad plan; it does miss that the Enterprise can warp away with ease though, unless it's been crippled.

[Imperial Overlord]

Honestly, this whole scenario is a little screwy.

Lets start with why the fuck there are 3 commissars and a contingent on a Rogue traders vessel. rogue traders and the commie/stormies come from literally the opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. Commissars and storm troopers are all about sticking to the imperial creed in the face of all odds. They don't negotiate with aliens, they don't tolerate humans that don't worship the emperor. They shoot them in the head and get on with their day. RTs are the imperiums tacit admission that sometimes you have to give a little to get a little. They'll hire aliens, they'll be hired out to aliens, they'll use xenotech and they'll truck around with heretics. They probably aren't wild about daemons, but in large part because they are some of the few people that know what and how dangerous they are.

Most commisars wouldn't last a week before they get fragged by the RTs armsmen when he threatens to shoot one of them/their captain for doing what it is that they do. Yet there are at least 3 on this ship whilst there are entire subsectors and fleets that are only assigned a single commissar to oversee them. Frankly it's more likely he has a contingent of space marines aboard.

Depends on the Rogue Trader. Some of them are essentially government backed conquistidors and command vast fleets with contingents of Imperial Guards and Space Marines among their number. That one has a contingent of Stormtroopers and a few commissars is quite reasonable. As for commissars and levels of responsibility, it's been made clear that the Commissariat has a rank structure of its own. That some commissars oversee whole fleets isn't really relevant when its clear that low rankers are what's intended by this scenario. Obviously you don't take them to a Tau trade deal, but that's the glorious thing about having fifty thousand men under your command. You don't have to.

[Elheru Aran]

Yes, the Commissariat exists independently of the IG power structure, to the point where it's almost an entirely separate organization of its own. That's what gives it the power to have oversight upon the Guard at all levels. If the Lord General could tell a Commissar to mind his own business, what's to say the Lord General isn't actually corrupted?

Plus there are all levels of Commissar. Some just run around with the troops; that's your bog-standard Commissar. Then you have higher-ranking Commissars (theoretically, they're all the same rank-ish, but in practice some are more equal than others) such as Ibram Gaunt (special case, I know) and Yarrick.

[Lord Revan]

Yes, the Commissariat exists independently of the IG power structure, to the point where it's almost an entirely separate organization of its own. That's what gives it the power to have oversight upon the Guard at all levels. If the Lord General could tell a Commissar to mind his own business, what's to say the Lord General isn't actually corrupted?

Plus there are all levels of Commissar. Some just run around with the troops; that's your bog-standard Commissar. Then you have higher-ranking Commissars (theoretically, they're all the same rank-ish, but in practice some are more equal than others) such as Ibram Gaunt (special case, I know) and Yarrick.

I thought there was some internal ranking system that mattered only when 2 Commisars are dealing with each other but to your average guardsman or stormtrooper they're in practice all the same rank.

[Elheru Aran]

Yes, the Commissariat exists independently of the IG power structure, to the point where it's almost an entirely separate organization of its own. That's what gives it the power to have oversight upon the Guard at all levels. If the Lord General could tell a Commissar to mind his own business, what's to say the Lord General isn't actually corrupted?

Plus there are all levels of Commissar. Some just run around with the troops; that's your bog-standard Commissar. Then you have higher-ranking Commissars (theoretically, they're all the same rank-ish, but in practice some are more equal than others) such as Ibram Gaunt (special case, I know) and Yarrick.

I thought there was some internal ranking system that mattered only when 2 Commisars are dealing with each other but to your average guardsman or stormtrooper they're in practice all the same rank.

Yeah, the 'internal ranking' is more a matter of seniority than anything else. Note that Yarrick is very old (200's? 400's?) and holds a position of authority over the entire armed forces of Armageddon. In a Ciaphas Cain novel (Traitor's Hand I think?) he goes up in a tribunal brought against him by a fellow Commissar and the judges are senior Commissars.

So basically my point with the Commissariat ranks are that a lower-grade Commissar may be at a level where a Rogue Trader may feel like he has discretion to disregard directives from the Commissar, especially if the RT is in overall command of the expedition. Commissars can't just shoot anybody; the command structure has to be preserved, and with rare exceptions they are *not* supposed to decapitate it completely. If they shoot the commanding officer, there will be a very serious inquest into what happened. Of course, the CO has an obligation to take the Commissar's directives into consideration...

[NecronLord]

A Rogue Trader is a Peer of the Imperium, the same rank as a Space Marine Chapter Master or a planetary governor. Only the Adeptus Administratum or the Inquisition have legal power over him. Only a traitor-commissar would try to execute such a person without blatant evidence of them being traitors. Because a Peer of the Imperium is far from a puny Imperial Guard General.

[Lord Revan]

I also suspect that senior commisars have developed an ability to "not be present" when dealing with certain types of infractions against the imperial creed and the ones who are the rule obsessed tyrants don't last that long, probably to becoming KIA due to an "accident"

[Imperial Overlord]

Don't overplay the "violations of Imperial Creed" issue. Rogue Traders are explicitly permitted to do what they do. Some of the Charters were authorized by the High Lords of Terra or the Emperor himself. This isn't modern society where we're all supposed to be theoretically equal under the law, it's a feudal galactic empire with a class system where things forbidden to ordinary citizens on pain of death are explicitly permitted for some parts of the elite. There isn't going to be much trouble along those lines.

[Lord Revan]

Don't overplay the "violations of Imperial Creed" issue. Rogue Traders are explicitly permitted to do what they do. Some of the Charters were authorized by the High Lords of Terra or the Emperor himself. This isn't modern society where we're all supposed to be theoretically equal under the law, it's a feudal galactic empire with a class system where things forbidden to ordinary citizens on pain of death are explicitly permitted for some parts of the elite. There isn't going to be much trouble along those lines.

I understood that but my point is that even if the senior Commisars had the authority to execute the Rogue Trader for minor infractions they probably wouldn't cause they've gotten to that senior position by knowing when to use the "carrot" instead of the "stick" so they might look the other way for minor infractions as long as major ones are being reported and punished according to the rules.

kind of the same way that senior inquisitor will request assistance from a space marine chapter even though technically he could order them to assist without question, but giving such an order would a insult to the pride of the SM chapter and thus would make things only needlessly difficult. By requesting the inquisitor allows the space marines to keep their price and that same pride makes it less likely they refuse the request, so everyone wins.