Is it discrimatory to ban foreigners from a cultural job?

[AniThyng]

To wit - is it racist and discrimatory to ban foreign labour from cooking 'cultural' food? Would it is right for say, the UK to ban indians from cooking fish and chips, or for the US to ban mexicans from a texas BBQ? How about Japanese banning foreigners from becoming sushi chefs? (Well I guess they already do that in Japan, for all I know)

For context : http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/mala ... ker-stalls

The Penang exco has banned foreigners from being employed as cooks at hawker stalls, in a move to preserve the state's food heritage.

Chief Minister Lim Guan Eng said the new ruling would be enforced on all roadside hawkers in the state.

Failure to observe the new rule would result in the revoking of their licence, he said.

Lim said hawkers would be given a year's grace period beginning next year.

"The grace period will also give the Penang and Seberang Prai municipal councils time to study and refine the implementation of the new regulation.

"The main idea of this is to safeguard Penang's food heritage and maintain the flavours that are unique to Penang," he said at Komtar after an exco meeting today.

Lim said the regulation, which would also help ensure that the Penang hawker food business would not be taken over by foreigners, would be imposed on all hawkers with stalls by the road, and in council or private food courts in shopping malls.

It would be included as a condition in hawker licenses next year, but restaurants or food outlets with centralised kitchens would not be subjected to the ruling, he said.

"However, the local councils will still allow stall owners to hire foreigners to help handle orders, clean up or prepare ingredients.

"It is just cooking that foreign workers are not allowed to do at hawker stalls," he said.

Lim said the authorities will also issue special stickers to hawkers to display at their stalls to show people that the food is authentically local.

"We hope by taking this measure, we can retain our unique local taste and show visitors the warmth of Penang."

Lim had earlier this year made the proposal that had received mixed reaction from the public. However, most locals, including hawkers, welcomed the idea.

He said during his visits to Singapore, citizens of the republic also praised Penang for making such a proposal.

"They told me they felt that Singapore should have done the same a long time ago.

"Even Tourism Minister Datuk Seri Mohamed Nazri Abdul Aziz and Pulai MP Datuk Nur Jazlan Mohamed had agreed to the move," he said.

Local government exco Chow Kon Yeow said the councils conducted a survey on the proposal between July 25 and August 31 this year involving 14,810 people whose responses were recorded in person or online.

He said 55.8% of the respondents were Penangites and the rest were from other states or countries.

"We found that 87.45% of the respondents were in favour of the move, and 86% also agreed that licenses should be revoked if the hawkers fail to comply," he said.

Chow also assured hawkers that no action would be taken against them during the grace period.

Meanwhile, Penang Munipal Council (MPPP) secretary Ang Aing Thye said the councils would study the 'grey areas' like the type of food the hawkers sell before they fully implement the new ruling.

"We will start with what we can easily define first," he said.

Ang also said coffee shop proprietors, who need not apply for hawker licenses for stalls at their premises, should ensure that the food was cooked by locals as well. – October 24, 2014.

[Hillary]

Is it not the very definition of discriminatory? Perhaps the question should be "is it right to discriminate"

[AniThyng]

Is it not the very definition of discriminatory? Perhaps the question should be "is it right to discriminate"

Point taken, but I presume that is implicit.

[salm]

Seems like a pretty bad thing to me. Maybe there´s some bizarr difference that I don´t understand but if foreigners were banned from cooking and selling Krautschupfnudeln in Germany I´d find that an increadibly bad thing. Actually a lot of Krautschupfnudeln are made and sold by foreigners and they seem to make them pretty decently.

[Bedlam]

the UK to ban Indians from cooking fish and chips

Well my local fish and chip shop (also does kebabs, pizza, fried Haggis, etc) is called Geovanni's. presumably the family running it was originally of Italian descent but sound extremely Scottish by now including smothering everything in what is locally called 'Chippy sause' as a default.

Anyway, once someone's been in a country for a certain period of time they are part of the local culture, even if that culture isn't exactly what it was a dozen years ago, cultures are hardly stationary things after all.

[AniThyng]

I should maybe clarify that in this case foreigner really should be taken in the context of "cheap foreign labor brought over specifically for the purpose of employment in a low paying undesirable job". No one is interested in stopping say, a german from coming to penang and opening a roast pork restaurant.

[Ralin]

I should maybe clarify that in this case foreigner really should be taken in the context of "cheap foreign labor brought over specifically for the purpose of employment in a low paying undesirable job". No one is interested in stopping say, a german from coming to penang and opening a roast pork restaurant.

So is this really about authenticity or just not wanting those damned Thai/Cambodians/Burmese/? to have another excuse to be around? I mean I don't know much about Malaysian cuisine but I'm given to understand the country is pretty diverse ethnically, so how much difference is there between the traditional street side food of Penang and...other random place in Malaysia?

[AniThyng]

I should maybe clarify that in this case foreigner really should be taken in the context of "cheap foreign labor brought over specifically for the purpose of employment in a low paying undesirable job". No one is interested in stopping say, a german from coming to penang and opening a roast pork restaurant.

So is this really about authenticity or just not wanting those damned Thai/Cambodians/Burmese/? to have another excuse to be around? I mean I don't know much about Malaysian cuisine but I'm given to understand the country is pretty diverse ethnically, so how much difference is there between the traditional street side food of Penang and...other random place in Malaysia?

Penang street food is generally acknowledged to be the best, most other places can boast a couple of specialties, but pretty much everything else comes from Penang (e.g. you will have a "Penang Char Kuey Teow[fried rice noodle]" stall in Kuala Lumpur). If I made a list of "top 10 malaysian foods" half of it would be from penang, and the only reason the other half wouldn't is because I am a native of another state and have some pride

So I do think it becomes at some point a form of cultural-other-ism? Because nobody is also going to stop the burmese from opening a burmese restaurant (or notably, a thai restaurant, of which there are legion). But appearently Penang has seen fit to ban foreigners from cooking the local cuisine locally.

Penang btw, is the only State in malaysia with a Chinese plurality (Kuala Lumpur and its metro area as well, but the KL metro area belongs to a far larger State than penang so that measurement is diluted, and KL is a federal territory). It's pretty obvious from the names in the article - no other state in Malaysia will even have a non-malay chief executive because [reasons]. This makes it doubly ironic because we have no qualms about complaining about discrimiation form the malay majority when the shoe is on the other foot.

[salm]

I should maybe clarify that in this case foreigner really should be taken in the context of "cheap foreign labor brought over specifically for the purpose of employment in a low paying undesirable job". No one is interested in stopping say, a german from coming to penang and opening a roast pork restaurant.

Oh, it´s the same in with Krautschupfnudeln in Germany. It´s mainly sold from food stalls on christmas markets. It´s a typical southern German dish and the staff in these stalls are usually made up of foreigners or students. It´s a very low paying job that can be done by pretty much anybody. The owners make quite a lot of money but this money isn´t passed down to the workers. If anything i think it should be legal for the foreigners to work there but they should get some sort of minimum wage which is at least double the currently ridiculous 6€/hour.

[Mr Bean]

There's a difference here between exploiting foreigner workers and trying to fix the issue by banning one type of foreign worker abuse. In this case I believe this law is misguided because it's not about some racism of only (nationality) can cook (nationality) food correctly! Instead it's a plan to fight abuse coming at it from a sideways angle which is not the best method to do so.

[Kaku Of The Monsoon]

Of course. Senor Chang springs to mind.

[AniThyng]

There's a difference here between exploiting foreigner workers and trying to fix the issue by banning one type of foreign worker abuse. In this case I believe this law is misguided because it's not about some racism of only (nationality) can cook (nationality) food correctly! Instead it's a plan to fight abuse coming at it from a sideways angle which is not the best method to do so.

Somehow I don't think the law is being pitched in any was as a means of ending labor exploitation.

But let me quote from the comments of the article to illustrate the kind of...is it racism...on display here:

Local food cooked only by local Malaysians taste a lot better than having someone from another country trying to cook our local dishes. It is just like having an Chinese try to cook Italian cuisine. Sushi must be made by Japanese, not any race otherwise it becomes fusion sushi. We can try to imitate their cooking but somehow does not taste as good.

TBH I think this is a textbook example of culture-based -ism, but I"m not really sure where it falls morally.(Things like this are also why I find it difficult to take asian-american SJ blogs complaining about "cultural appropriation" and "race fetishisation" and most egrariously "POC cannot be racist" seriously)

[AniThyng]

Of course. Senor Chang springs to mind.

I honestly don't get the reference.

[Kaku Of The Monsoon]

It's from a TV show called Community. You should check it out, it's pretty great.

[Edi]

It's from a TV show called Community. You should check it out, it's pretty great.

Perhaps. But what you should do, starting right the fuck now, is stop spamming stupid one-liners, pictures and general idiocy. Less than fucking 24 hours after I approved your registration, you have close to 20 posts, nearly all of which qualify as spam and some of which have been (with good reason) reported as trolling. In fact, some three quarters of your posts are between two locked threads, one of which was split into the Hall of Shame.

Dial it down a few notches, read the board policies and take a good long look around. Then try to post something that is less spammy and more thoughtful and get to know people before engaging in behavior that may piss off a large section of the board population. You only get one chance to make a first impression and from what I've seen so far, I'm wishing I had just deleted the notification about your registration.

If you continue along as you have so far, nobody is going to miss you when one of us whacks you with the Ban Hammer.

[Broomstick]

Good lord - if Chicago tried a stunt like that something like 3/4 of the restaurants would be without cooks. Sure, certain types of cuisine are dominated by certain groups but I doubt anyone around here would blink if they found out their Sushi chef was from Peru or something similar. The ability to cook a particular cuisine is not genetic, it's about learning how that cuisine works.

[Ralin]

Penang street food is generally acknowledged to be the best, most other places can boast a couple of specialties, but pretty much everything else comes from Penang (e.g. you will have a "Penang Char Kuey Teow[fried rice noodle]" stall in Kuala Lumpur). If I made a list of "top 10 malaysian foods" half of it would be from penang, and the only reason the other half wouldn't is because I am a native of another state and have some pride

So I do think it becomes at some point a form of cultural-other-ism? Because nobody is also going to stop the burmese from opening a burmese restaurant (or notably, a thai restaurant, of which there are legion). But appearently Penang has seen fit to ban foreigners from cooking the local cuisine locally.

I was thinking along the lines of whether the same logic can be applied to bar Malaysians from other parts of Malaysia from these jobs.

[AniThyng]

Penang street food is generally acknowledged to be the best, most other places can boast a couple of specialties, but pretty much everything else comes from Penang (e.g. you will have a "Penang Char Kuey Teow[fried rice noodle]" stall in Kuala Lumpur). If I made a list of "top 10 malaysian foods" half of it would be from penang, and the only reason the other half wouldn't is because I am a native of another state and have some pride

So I do think it becomes at some point a form of cultural-other-ism? Because nobody is also going to stop the burmese from opening a burmese restaurant (or notably, a thai restaurant, of which there are legion). But appearently Penang has seen fit to ban foreigners from cooking the local cuisine locally.

I was thinking along the lines of whether the same logic can be applied to bar Malaysians from other parts of Malaysia from these jobs.

It isn't explicitly stated but my gut feeling is the true intent is to have only "native" penangites of the appropriate ethnicity cooking. The food in question is indeed generally of penang origin from the first generation of Chinese immigration in the 19th century from fujian. ( kl by contrast is mostly hakka/cantonese)

[Zixinus]

As far as I can figure out, the point of the law is that tourists will be given the illusion of serving "authentic ethic" food. That is not worth making a law over.

[AniThyng]

As far as I can figure out, the point of the law is that tourists will be given the illusion of serving "authentic ethic" food. That is not worth making a law over.

I suppose it could be interpreted as asking if say, we should employ foreigners(or rather, people not of the culture involved) as part of an ethnic dance troupe or something.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Mereka mengambil kerja kita!

[AniThyng]

Mereka mengambil kerja kita!

Pekerja asing kat kopitiam tu tak faham bahasa cina! (The foreign workers at that[chinese] coffeeshop don't understand chinese!) Language pride in Malaysia is a touchy issue. The sentiment I just quoted is not entirely made up - there are people who would get pissed off that they can't order food in chinese in a chinese coffeeshop because the workers are 'foreign' now and haven't mastered the local chinese dialect, and there's a huge debate over the role of Malay at all outside it's use within the Malay community. The irony here is that the ethnic group most relevant to the discussion is Chinese* and thus the outrage is best expressed in either Penang Hokkien dialect or Malaysian Standard Mandarin.

I am however not personally convinced there is a significant amount of unemployed chinese youth whose aspirations to being street food sellers are being thwarted by cheaper foreign labor so the argument that this is a job preserving law is shaky at best...

*The <other> famous penang food is of course Nasi Kandar, a Mamak (ethnic Indian Muslim) speciality, but that is sold from shops and rarely street stalls and would not really be affected by this ruling, yet.

[Nari]

Malaysia is already pretty rife with blatantly rascist employment (and other) policies.

See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Malaysia

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to try and put quotes in, but preferential treatment of ethnic Malays (the "Bumiputer") is actually constitutionally enshrined.

As others have said, I'm a little dubious about the stated reason. There's a much more obvious motivation.

[AniThyng]

Malaysia is already pretty rife with blatantly rascist employment (and other) policies.

See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Malaysia

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to try and put quotes in, but preferential treatment of ethnic Malays (the "Bumiputer") is actually constitutionally enshrined.

As others have said, I'm a little dubious about the stated reason. There's a much more obvious motivation.

Going to ignore my entire paragraphs about how this is primarily a chinese issue? No Malay is going to be losing a job over cooking pork dishes.

Bumiputera affirmative action is done for the same reason it is done elsewhere, to try to enforce equity. The ethnic chinese already have considerable advantages against Malays of the same socioeconomic class.

[AniThyng]

Malaysia is already pretty rife with blatantly rascist employment (and other) policies.

See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Malaysia

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to try and put quotes in, but preferential treatment of ethnic Malays (the "Bumiputer") is actually constitutionally enshrined.

As others have said, I'm a little dubious about the stated reason. There's a much more obvious motivation.

Going to ignore my entire paragraphs about how this is primarily a chinese issue? No Malay is going to be losing a job over cooking pork dishes.

Bumiputera affirmative action is done for the same reason it is done elsewhere, to try to enforce equity. The ethnic chinese already have considerable advantages against Malays of the same socioeconomic class.

I skimmed the article and as usual it fails to address anything other then Bumiputera racism. I hate to use sjw type examples, but cherry picking examples of successful Malays or poor chinese ignores larger issues like chinese dominance of the economy and skilled labor sectors etc, or issues of ethnic identity ( chinese reluctance to use Malay unless they absolutely have to etc )