Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

[Lord Revan]

first of I checked the clip and those debris are too irregular and cratered to be from a recent DS style attack.


also the exact quote from Ivonava was "We're in special need of of Atmoshpare capable to evacuate survivors from the ground" (emphasis mine) that sounds like and attack similar to WH40K Exterminatus that "kills" the planet but leaves a lifeless "corpse" behind, where as a DS style attack wouldn't leave a surface to evac people from (also you wouldn't need an atmo capable shuttle either)

also IIRC we (or the crew of B5) never get any real details as to how the vorlon planet killer other then that attack doesn't take more then 12 hours at most (that's how long the com blackout seems to last)

EDIT:fixed the quote to be more exact to the actual line (I had misremembered the exact wording)

[NecronLord]

first of I checked the clip and those debris are too irregular and cratered to be from a recent DS style attack.

I do believe you made this up.

Show evidence?

Bonus round:

How do these asteroids pass?

[Batman]

While I'm not agreeing with Revan I think that's unfair. The video gives us a reasonably detailed look at the asteroids in question whereas your picture gives us nothing. It's impossible to tell whether or not the asteroids in it fit with his theory because we can barely see the asteroids.

[NecronLord]

While I'm not agreeing with Revan I think that's unfair. The video gives us a reasonably detailed look at the asteroids in question whereas your picture gives us nothing. It's impossible to tell whether or not the asteroids in it fit with his theory because we can barely see the asteroids.

How do you know, he's not said how he decided they were 'inconsistent with' a death star type thing.

You know what you're likely to get when you blast a planet apart [hilariously I originally said 'to atoms?' originally here, but I'm editing]. Gas.

The energy required to turn a planet's entire mass to vapor is orders of magnitude less than to scatter its mass (this is why gas giants exist).

The death star doesn't depict this either, both are dull fields of rocky asteroids.

[Batman]

Um yes he has, he said they're 'too irregular and cratered'. That kinda requires you to be able to see the asteroids in enough detail to tell whether or not they are.

[NecronLord]

We'll see when he replies with his evidence on what is or is not too irregular and cratered.

Then he can come onto the bonus round, analyzing the Star Wars clip and showing if those asteroids are too irregular or cratered.

As I'm convinced he made it up based on his subjective impression, and has no evidence, I doubt he'll get that far.

[Batman]

And what I'm saying is that at least from that picture it's impossible to tell. Your 'bonus round' asks Revan to prove his theory from evidence that doesn't show the very criteria he's basing his theory on.

[NecronLord]

The point is, it's an illustration of how his concept is based on subjective impressions, the Death Star shouldn't leave anything but token debris either, because when you propel something from an explosion, you heat it, and even a hundredth of a percent of the energy shown in scattering the planet being waste heat would atomize it. The 'Death Star' debris is itself unrealistic.

[NecronLord]

Just for a bit of math here, we all know the 1038 joule figure for the death star.

M⊕ = 6*1024 kg

Assuming that's iron:

Enthalpy of vaporization of iron per Kg: 6*106 J/Kg

6*1024 * 6*106 = 3.6*1031 J (to vapourise)
But we have to get it to boiling point first, so let's take its specific heat:

Let's say it starts at 0°C (273.15 K) and we need to raise it to its boiling point (this is wrong, but it's a ballpark figure in reality melting and boiling points vary with pressure, so this is going to produce a funkily high figure) we are not bothering with the melting point, because it crosses that implicitly to get to the Boiling Point: 2750.0 °C (3023.15 K, 4982.0 °F)

The specific heat of iron is: 0.45 kJ/kg°K
So each kg of our stone cold iron planet takes: (3023.15K-273.15K)*450 = 1,237,500 J to raise it from freezing cold to its boiling point. Let's work that out.

6*1024 * 1,237,500 = 7.425*1030 Let's round that up and call it 8*1030 (to raise temperature)
Let's add the heat of fusion:
6*1024 * 2.72*105 = 1.632*1030 J (to melt)

3.6*1031 + 8*1030 + 1.632*1030 = 4.5632*1031 J to vapourise a stone cold iron planet with earthlike mass

The Death Star puts out 1038J

1038/4.5632*1030= 2,191,444 IE the Death Star delivers enough kinetic energy to vapourise the entire planet two million times over, but still there are some rocks that are mysteriously not even glowing red left over.

The Vorlon planet killer's asteroids are unrealistic, yes, if they are from it destroying a planet in a Death Star esque way but not because they're the wrong shape, or they're cratered, but because they're not vapourised; this is something the Death Star itself does. It should be gas, or at least liquid, even if the attack loses only one hundredth of a percent as waste heat that is enough to vapourise a stone cold iron planet two hundred times over.

[NecronLord]

Astute observers by the by, will notice that the above is an argument that the Vorlon Planet Killer doesn't possess Death Star equivalent firepower (duh), which of course, it is, however, the point is that I'm not convinced that any argument about the shape of asteroids coming out of such an attack is based in evidence.

Which is why I raised the topic of the Death Star's debris in the first instance.

[Terralthra]

Isn't that an equally functional argument that the Death Star doesn't possess Death-Star-equivalent firepower, since it also leaves behind asteroids, when everything left behind by it should be vaporized?

[NecronLord]

Yes. Both are unrealistic in an absolute sense.

[Lord Revan]

neither of those shouldn't really pass but what little we do see of the Alderaan remains shape wise they seem to pass but we never see close or clearly, the B5 rocks however we do see clearly and they irregular and jagged with several impact craters and don't look at all like recently cooled molten rock. besides it's only a part of my argument other being Ivanova's line that makes little sense if the planet had been blow to peices and I'm willing to conside to that part (the space rock part that is).

[Ted C]

Ah, B5Tech, so much exaggeration there.

The weapons of the most powerful Young Race in B5, the Minbari, demonstrate hundreds of terawatts of firepower. That is some impressive power output, but still dwarfed by the obscene power of the Galactic Empire.

Centauri mass drivers are even less of a threat, most of their destructive energy comes from the fall from orbit, so they're pretty useless in ship-to-ship combat.

I would argue that some B5 powers could match the Star Trek Federation ship-to-ship, but the Empire is out of the league of even the First Ones.

[cmdrjones]

Ah ha, so if the DS has enough power to vaporise a planet, yet we see debris... how do we reconcile that? I freely admit that the B5 tech website appears to have very generous calcs for B5 powers, but, hey... if it adds to the drama a little bit, why not? 2000 Sharlins against a SD for a one strike kill is certainly dramatic, and puts the possibility of a B5 victory over A SW vessel within the realm of plausibility, but will it happen? Who knows? Again, needs of the story comes first, but while 2000 triremes vs a Nimitz battlegroup would still be a "ramming speed, save the ammo" situation, if we have 2000 19th century ships vs a Nimitz battlegroup, There is still a possibility of some drama. Some might say, "Hey, those are just triremes with silver paint on em! This is BS!" But, meh, you can't please everybody.
Thanks again for all of your replies...
Now, for the big question.... Did the intro pique anyones interest/curiosity, in a literary sense?

[Borgholio]

It is never stated that the DS can literally vaporize a planet. It is stated to be able to "destroy" a planet. So debris is expected.

[Lord Revan]

also it's possible that some thinner parts of the crust got torn loose and only melted (possily only partially) instead of outright vaporizing and those pieces got ejected in to space to cool and form the debris we saw, after just because the bulk of the mass got vaporized doesn't mean every microgram of it did.

[NecronLord]

It is never stated that the DS can literally vaporize a planet. It is stated to be able to "destroy" a planet. So debris is expected.

This is a vaporized planet. IRL.

Exceeding gravitational binding energy for a planet takes more energy than vaporizing it. Accelerating it away at 5 PSL like the death star does, is orders of magnitude more energy.

How was the kinetic energy imparted on the rocks to make them hit 5% of lightspeed, without heating them? Answer is, 'in some unrealistic way.'

[Borgholio]

Don't be ignorant.

What? When the term "vaporized" is used in science fiction what do people think of? The vaporization effect you get when you hit someone with a Phaser. Nobody has ever used the term "vaporized" to refer to a gas giant in Star Wars (or Trek for that matter IIRC). You're just quibbling over semantics.

[NecronLord]

Damnit, you beat my edit. I thought that was a little too strong. Oh well.

Don't be ignorant.

What? When the term "vaporized" is used in science fiction what do people think of? The vaporization effect you get when you hit someone with a Phaser. Nobody has ever used the term "vaporized" to refer to a gas giant in Star Wars (or Trek for that matter IIRC). You're just quibbling over semantics.

I raised the topic of vaporization, above, and then presented math demonstrating why Alderaan would be turned to vapour, even if made of solid, stone cold iron. I get to say what we're talking about.

We're talking about real vaporization here, not phaserization.

[Borgholio]

We're talking about real vaporization here, not phaserization.

Gotcha. Yes, if we're talking about a phase change into vapor, then you're quite right. We already know that something happens to prevent the DS beam from passing right through the planet and instead builds the energy in the core until it explodes. Perhaps whatever causes that is "unrealistic way" you mentioned...

[Jub]

Damnit, you beat my edit. I thought that was a little too strong. Oh well.

Don't be ignorant.

What? When the term "vaporized" is used in science fiction what do people think of? The vaporization effect you get when you hit someone with a Phaser. Nobody has ever used the term "vaporized" to refer to a gas giant in Star Wars (or Trek for that matter IIRC). You're just quibbling over semantics.

I raised the topic of vaporization, above, and then presented math demonstrating why Alderaan would be turned to vapour, even if made of solid, stone cold iron. I get to say what we're talking about.

We're talking about real vaporization here, not phaserization.

It's possible that there wasn't enough time for the energy transfer to melt certain bits of the planet (tops of mountains, parts with poor thermal conductivity, etc.) and that's what we see left behind. There was enough energy in the blast to melt or vaporize the entire things, just some bits were thrown away from the planet so fast that they weren't utterly destroyed. This gets even more likely if the explosion wasn't centered and one side had more mass between the crust/mantle, and the rapidly expanding gasses at the planet's core.

[cmdrjones]

Ah, B5Tech, so much exaggeration there.

The weapons of the most powerful Young Race in B5, the Minbari, demonstrate hundreds of terawatts of firepower. That is some impressive power output, but still dwarfed by the obscene power of the Galactic Empire.

Centauri mass drivers are even less of a threat, most of their destructive energy comes from the fall from orbit, so they're pretty useless in ship-to-ship combat.

I would argue that some B5 powers could match the Star Trek Federation ship-to-ship, but the Empire is out of the league of even the First Ones.

Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?

[Batman]

Small problem-the ISDs were in that asteroid field 'on purpose'. They risked damage (assuming there was any beyond one ISD losing communications for the time being) as the price for finding the Falcon. People would wander into the path of your massdriven asteroids...why, exactly?

[Jub]

Sorry for the thread necro, but I was reviewing this while writing my story and I caught something.... If Centauri mass drivers are useless for space combat because the asteroids get thier energy from falling from orbit... then how did the asteroid ambling through space smash that ISD bridge in ESB? I know people have floated the idea that their shields were damaged at Hoth, but, still, you'd think their hull would be more than enough to ward off space rocks NOT moving at incredible re-entry speeds, right?

From the movie we have no evidence that it actually damaged the bridge, it explodes against the hull and that's all we see.