Doctor Who S34E11: "Dark Water" *Spoilers*

[Crazedwraith]

Missy - I'm willing to give this shift the benefit of the doubt since it is a bit of a new direction but I REALLY, REALLY did not like the way they decided to play this. If you want a female master... fair enough but the sexual attraction is going to get really old if that is all they have to offer with the new shift. I'm worried someone saw that Comic Relief Doctor Who Skit and decided to run with it as a serious thing. I suppose it is a saving grace they didn't decide to make Missy fit the 'young' female companion category.

You realise Moffat hasn't just seen that Comic Relief Doctor Who Skit he wrote that Comic Relief Doctor Who Skit?

[SpottedKitty]

If you want a female master... fair enough but the sexual attraction is going to get really old if that is all they have to offer with the new shift.

I dunno, the John Simm Master had this in not just spades, but great big, dripping, JCB-shovelfuls. And there are hints here and there in earlier Masters, if you look carefully. How many times over the years could he have actually killed the Doctor? Which makes sense if you take the view that what he actually wanted to do was defeat the Doctor beyond all hope of recovery.

[Iroscato]

I was quite impressed with the episode overall, minus the out-of-the-blue scene with Clara going psychotic and blackmailing the Doctor into helping her. Whether it was real or not, she crossed a line that has done some irreperable harm to her character from my perspective.
@Predator490: the Cyberman have had that look since series 7, they did a kind of transition from the old 'Cybusmen' into this latest version.
The Missy/Mistress/Master reveal was actually very well done IMO, both actors certainly sold it to me. If the Mistress keeps this face for a while I can see her being an excellent foil for 12 over the next few years.
I'll give it a 4, as 3.8 isn't an option

[Batman]

Clara loses the man she loves and has access to a guy who can travel back in time and change the past. What's psychotic about her trying to get the Doctor to bring Mr Pink back?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Probably the fact that she jumps straight to "knock him out and blackmail him" (or try to anyway) rather than just ask.

[Enigma]

Is this a stand alone episode or part of another?

[Batman]

That's only psychotic if you have no reason to assume just asking isn't going work. Last episode the guy was content to let the world burn, the episode before that it was 'kill one space critter and save Earth or risk billions dying, your choice' when the Doctor could have just told her 'happens every 100 million years, don't worry. Shell fragments will just burn up in the atmosphere and there'll be a new moon shortly after.' Capaldi's Doctor hasn't exactly done a stellar job of earning her trust.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh I understand that. It's still a rather extreme approach to take.

I'm wondering if the next episode will follow up on that "communication from the dead, please don't cremate me" thing. I'm wondering just how many people's "souls" are in that Nethersphere.

[Enigma]

So, a two parter then?

[Batman]

Oh I understand that. It's still a rather extreme approach to take.

There's not many approaches Clara can try in between. What other options does she have? It's either ask nicely, which is unlikely to work, or try to force the Doctor to do her bidding, which is what she did.

And of course it's a two-parter. The spoilers at the end of s10 already gave that away.

[PREDATOR490]

If you want a female master... fair enough but the sexual attraction is going to get really old if that is all they have to offer with the new shift.

I dunno, the John Simm Master had this in not just spades, but great big, dripping, JCB-shovelfuls. And there are hints here and there in earlier Masters, if you look carefully. How many times over the years could he have actually killed the Doctor? Which makes sense if you take the view that what he actually wanted to do was defeat the Doctor beyond all hope of recovery.

The Master has spent thousands of years trying to break the Doctor in the most bizzare method of flirtation / unrequited love ?


Clara's entire attempt to blackmail the Doctor was stupid from start to finish. That said, I found the Doctor's HA! it was all a dream melodrama a bit cheap.
Even if the Doctor said Yes: She has to give back the key and let him in so she instantly loses her leverage.
Would have been more interesting for that to have been played out rather than the Doctor pulling out the Magic Immunity card.

Incidentally, I find this dead body connection premise a bit silly.
We saw Missy grabbing people across time which includes the future soldier from Into The Dalek. Apparently being cremated is bad but being reduced to ash by Dalek extermination did not cause a problem.
Alternatively, the clockwork android got into 'heaven' only to be turned into a Cyberman ?
Did the Master make these Cybermen or are they seriously ANOTHER brand of Earth-made Cybermen that become the Cybermen of Series 7 since they share the same look ?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh I understand that. It's still a rather extreme approach to take.

There's not many approaches Clara can try in between. What other options does she have? It's either ask nicely, which is unlikely to work, or try to force the Doctor to do her bidding, which is what she did.

The fact that she jumps straight to option number two is why its psychopathic. Granted she's not exactly in a stable mental state anyway, hence why, after learning from the Doctor previously that going back and undoing part of your own history is a bad thing, she says "fuck it I want my boyfriend back." The fact that the Doctor agrees to even try just because it's her asking make her character even worse. Did the Doctor try to go back and save Adric? Nope, he said he can't. Did he try and save Katerina, or Sara Kingdom, or all the poor sods he's seen killed by Daleks? Nope, he can't change his own history.

But Clara fucking Oswald asks him to save her boyfriend and it's off to Hell we go.

[Enigma]

Oh I understand that. It's still a rather extreme approach to take.

There's not many approaches Clara can try in between. What other options does she have? It's either ask nicely, which is unlikely to work, or try to force the Doctor to do her bidding, which is what she did.

The fact that she jumps straight to option number two is why its psychopathic. Granted she's not exactly in a stable mental state anyway, hence why, after learning from the Doctor previously that going back and undoing part of your own history is a bad thing, she says "fuck it I want my boyfriend back." The fact that the Doctor agrees to even try just because it's her asking make her character even worse. Did the Doctor try to go back and save Adric? Nope, he said he can't. Did he try and save Katerina, or Sara Kingdom, or all the poor sods he's seen killed by Daleks? Nope, he can't change his own history.

But Clara fucking Oswald asks him to save her boyfriend and it's off to Hell we go.

Nor could he have saved the Amy and Rory....... though in that case he could have if he tried. Never mind then.

[Batman]

Oh I understand that. It's still a rather extreme approach to take.

There's not many approaches Clara can try in between. What other options does she have? It's either ask nicely, which is unlikely to work, or try to force the Doctor to do her bidding, which is what she did.

The fact that she jumps straight to option number two is why its psychopathic.

You will now point out the in-between options she had.

Granted she's not exactly in a stable mental state anyway, hence why, after learning from the Doctor previously that going back and undoing part of your own history is a bad thing, she says "fuck it I want my boyfriend back." The fact that the Doctor agrees to even try just because it's her asking make her character even worse.

How exactly does Clara's behavior say anything about the Doctor?

Did the Doctor try to go back and save Adric? Nope, he said he can't. Did he try and save Katerina, or Sara Kingdom, or all the poor sods he's seen killed by Daleks? Nope, he can't change his own history.

How exactly does going back and saving Mr Pink change the Doctor's history? Which was kinda like the central point of 'Day of the Doctor' by the way, which indicated that yes he can.

[Parallax]

The so called change in Day of the Doctor is ... debatable.
He may have always not pressed the button, or he did once and now hasn't. It's a tad ambiguous.

That being said, no matter if he did press the button or not - the immediate end result was exactly the same. Gallifrey and the Daleks alike were gone and the Universe thought them mutually obliterated. Life and time went on as if nothing had changed - and perhaps it didn't change at all.
Timey Wimey and all that bollocks.

As for saving Mr Pink, the hallucination of the Doctor did explain the paradoxical nature of not letting someone you know is dead from actually dying. You can only know to go back and save them if you know they're dead, which suddenly they're not because you saved them, etc etc etc.
That and you'd probably end up with more of those goddamn Vortex creatures from Father's Day popping up - and the less I'm reminded of Rose's goddamn stupidity, the better.

[Eternal_Freedom]

[
You will now point out the in-between options she had.

You said it yourself, there aren't any. But she doesn't even try asking. That's the problem I have with it.

How exactly does Clara's behavior say anything about the Doctor?

Did you miss the "do you think I care about you so little" speech? It's more a comment on the writing anyway, since Clara is just so awesome that the Doctor will go along with it just because it's her asking.

How exactly does going back and saving Mr Pink change the Doctor's history? Which was kinda like the central point of 'Day of the Doctor' by the way, which indicated that yes he can.

It changes Clara's history, which was the point; messing around in your own timeline is a bad thing, Time Lord or no. Besides, in a minor way it would change the Doctor's history, because he knows Danny died when Clara asks him. If he changes Danny's death, then that (small) part of his history gets redacted.

For a similar example, go watch "Father's Day," Nine takes Rose back to see her father die, she saves him, the earlier versions of Nine and Rose disappear. Ergo, it's a bad thing to fuck with your own history.

The comparison to Day of the Doctor is fairly silly. Yes, he can change his own past (if that is actually what he did) but it required all of his incarnations and their TARDIS's to do it.

[J Ryan]

I think everyone is forgetting one thing with this episode. The plan wasn't to rewrite or change history in any way. Danny died and the Doctor wanted to see if there was something that came afterwards to rescue him from.

Also hasn't it always been the case that timelords can just tell who other timelords are by just being near them?

[SpottedKitty]

Also hasn't it always been the case that timelords can just tell who other timelords are by just being near them?

Look at the Doctor's face when he did his... erm... hand-on investigation; pure whisky-tango-foxtrot (or the Gallifreyan equivalent). He knew then, he just didn't dare admit it to himself.

Something that didn't really sink in until I watched the repeat tonight; that up-and-over-horizon view inside the sphere was mindboggling. I could feel my gyros tumble, I think.

And, of course, now we know Danny's secret, although I'm sure a good few of us made pretty good guesses a while back.

[Bedlam]

Oh I understand that. It's still a rather extreme approach to take.

I'm wondering if the next episode will follow up on that "communication from the dead, please don't cremate me" thing. I'm wondering just how many people's "souls" are in that Nethersphere.

Given that all seems to be a fake it doesn't need that much follow up.

Apparently that sphere thing uploads the dead but has no real connection to their bodies they just tell the uploads that to get them to voluntarily remove their emotions (why it needs to be voluntary is not explained, maybe it makes the whole thing easier?)

[Eternal_Freedom]

Apparently that sphere thing uploads the dead but has no real connection to their bodies they just tell the uploads that to get them to voluntarily remove their emotions (why it needs to be voluntary is not explained, maybe it makes the whole thing easier?)

Perhaps it's just the Master being evil to humans. I don't see how it would be "easier" but it would no doubt be amusing to the Master.

[SpottedKitty]

Perhaps it's just the Master being evil to humans. I don't see how it would be "easier" but it would no doubt be amusing to the Master.

That's been reason enough for him often enough before now. Especially when you look at the John Simm Master...

[PREDATOR490]

This episode does not make a really good effort to explain what is actually going on with Missy's exotic museum.

She specifically mentions to the Doctor the Cybermen are about to 'cremate' all the graves of Earth or some shit which we only know through Danny is bad because of the connection. Thus, the episode seems to be specifically tailored to the idea the connection is real otherwise Missy just sent the Cybermen to destroy graves... because... ?
Sure, the Master is a massive dick and likes to cause chaos but grave desecration is a bit... bizarre on his list of schemes.

The scenes where she is pretty much screwing with them by pretending to be a droid is what you would expect from the Master, although playing to the instant gender switch by having Missy start kissing the Doctor is a distinctly poor tone to set. We just got over the hump with Companions lusting after the Doctor so they introduce an older Doctor only to make the Master into a woman who can do it instead.

Not sure how this Cybermen invasion is really going to work either. The building can only logically hold so many and Earth has experience fighting them before. Burning the bodies of people is somehow going to make billions of Cybermen... how exactly ?

[xerex]

Incidentally, I find this dead body connection premise a bit silly.
We saw Missy grabbing people across time which includes the future soldier from Into The Dalek. Apparently being cremated is bad but being reduced to ash by Dalek extermination did not cause a problem.
?

My guess.
The cremation pain is a cover story. The pain they're feeling is actually their bodies being converted to Cybermen.

Which would mean the're not actually dead but have been captured just before death.

[Pelranius]

I've been wondering about the Missy = Master connection since the first episode of Series Eight, but darn if Capaldi's acting didn't sell the entire episode by itself as the Doctor ran screaming around in London.

[PREDATOR490]

Incidentally, I find this dead body connection premise a bit silly.
We saw Missy grabbing people across time which includes the future soldier from Into The Dalek. Apparently being cremated is bad but being reduced to ash by Dalek extermination did not cause a problem.
?

My guess.
The cremation pain is a cover story. The pain they're feeling is actually their bodies being converted to Cybermen.

Which would mean the're not actually dead but have been captured just before death.

Missy specifically whispers to the Doctor: "Stop making a fuss, it's too late. All the graves of planet Earth are about to be burned'

Why the fuck would Missy / Cybermen decide to burn all the graves of Earth if the body - connection was fake and the cremation was a cover story ?

The episode ends with a flat out follow through on the idea that somehow burning all the graves are going to somehow cause the folks in the nethersphere to select delete which will cause billions of Cybermen to suddenly be created.
The way this looks to me is the Cybermen in that building are empty shells waiting for the download of the 'souls' who choose Delete and by burning all the graves it will cause those souls to make that choice.

Why it has to be voluntary ? - Given how this season has been full of bullshit like the Moon being an Egg or magic trees... I fully expect this is going to turn into some magical soul power.
It also looks like Doctor Who is seriously fielding the notion that the afterlife link thing is legitimate and Missy somehow co-opted it.