Doctor Who S34E11: "Dark Water" *Spoilers*

[jwl]

The Master has spent thousands of years trying to break the Doctor in the most bizzare method of flirtation / unrequited love ?


Clara's entire attempt to blackmail the Doctor was stupid from start to finish. That said, I found the Doctor's HA! it was all a dream melodrama a bit cheap.
Even if the Doctor said Yes: She has to give back the key and let him in so she instantly loses her leverage.
Would have been more interesting for that to have been played out rather than the Doctor pulling out the Magic Immunity card.

Incidentally, I find this dead body connection premise a bit silly.
We saw Missy grabbing people across time which includes the future soldier from Into The Dalek. Apparently being cremated is bad but being reduced to ash by Dalek extermination did not cause a problem.
Alternatively, the clockwork android got into 'heaven' only to be turned into a Cyberman ?
Did the Master make these Cybermen or are they seriously ANOTHER brand of Earth-made Cybermen that become the Cybermen of Series 7 since they share the same look ?

Being cremated it bad because it hurts. Being turned to ash by a dalek antibody hurt as well, we can see that when she was screaming, but it was over quickly, and when it stopped she stopped screaming. However, I imagine being subsequently digested by the dalek will be pretty painful.

Anyway, some people seem to have missed this, so I'll point it out: this system does not work in exactly the same way as the one in Silence in the Library. Silence in the Library has the data from the body copied into the computer, making a kind of AI. This thing works based on telepathy.

[Death Zebra]

Speaking of not being able to change your own history, what's the deal with the dying Tardis seen in "The Name of the Doctor"? Wouldn't The Doctor getting a new set of regenerations and leaving in what is presumably the same Tardis cross his own timeline?

Not sure how this Cybermen invasion is really going to work either. The building can only logically hold so many and Earth has experience fighting them before. Burning the bodies of people is somehow going to make billions of Cybermen... how exactly ?

Maybe the building is bigger on the inside. It's already been shown that there's some Time Lord technology involved.

[Parallax]

Speaking of not being able to change your own history, what's the deal with the dying Tardis seen in "The Name of the Doctor"? Wouldn't The Doctor getting a new set of regenerations and leaving in what is presumably the same Tardis cross his own timeline?

The Time Lords have shown the ability to cross time lines if they feel the need is big enough (The Three Doctors springs to mind). I assume that part of what they did through the crack helped sort out any paradoxes involved in that particular instance.

And, of course, there's nothing stopping the Doctor going back to Trenzalore and dying there at some point in his future.

[jwl]

Speaking of not being able to change your own history, what's the deal with the dying Tardis seen in "The Name of the Doctor"? Wouldn't The Doctor getting a new set of regenerations and leaving in what is presumably the same Tardis cross his own timeline?

The Time Lords have shown the ability to cross time lines if they feel the need is big enough (The Three Doctors springs to mind). I assume that part of what they did through the crack helped sort out any paradoxes involved in that particular instance.

And, of course, there's nothing stopping the Doctor going back to Trenzalore and dying there at some point in his future.

There isn't, but the only point in the doctor's timeline the GI messed with was doctors 1-11.

[Eternal_Freedom]

We only saw the results from 11's perspective, the GI could well have been fucking around with Doctors 12+ and we wouldn't have seen it.

[Enigma]

We only saw the results from 11's perspective, the GI could well have been fucking around with Doctors 12+ and we wouldn't have seen it.

Doubt it or else Clara would have recognized 12 instead of being freaked out about him. Plus in Day of the Doctor only showed 13 TARDISes not flebbity billions of them.

[Eternal_Freedom]

We only saw the results from 11's perspective, the GI could well have been fucking around with Doctors 12+ and we wouldn't have seen it.

Doubt it or else Clara would have recognized 12 instead of being freaked out about him. Plus in Day of the Doctor only showed 13 TARDISes not flebbity billions of them.

I'm trying to be generous to writing that is questionable at best. Be nice damnit

You are right though. I wonder why it never occurred to Eleven that Twelve's presence meant he had to survive Trenzalore, or else Twelve wouldn't be able to help save Gallifrey. For that matter, where in Twelve's timeline does saving Gallifrey fall?

[2000AD]

The cyberman reveal would have actually worked on me if they hadn't have shown the cybermen all over last weeks teaser. The Master reveal is a let down for me; as someone who's only been seriously watching from 8th Doc onwards The Master isn't really that big of a deal for me and hasn't been in any really good bits, so for them to be coming back is just exasperating given that I've seen them killed off and brought back 3 (or 2 and a bit if last one isn't a proper killing) times now. It's all "Hey, this is kinda interesting, is this going to be something new? No, they're going to try and draw blood from a stone again". Heck, it didn't even have to be a new character, they could have used an old one, just make it one of the old characters that hasn't been run into the ground by the revival already!

So The Doctor has to start grilling The Master about Gallifrey right? Doc is looking for Galli and last time he saw Master they were getting sucked back onto Galli as it went back to another dimension.

Not at all bold prediction for next week: Danny is going to take control of the cyberman his body is made into and fight against the evil cybermen before getting brought back to life.

Slightly more bold prediction: An 'everybody lives' day maybe? They've got their bodies and their 'souls' (so to speak) so use magi-tech to fix up the bodies before putting their 'soul' back in?

[Bedlam]

Slightly more bold prediction: An 'everybody lives' day maybe? They've got their bodies and their 'souls' (so to speak) so use magi-tech to fix up the bodies before putting their 'soul' back in?

Possibly, however, I'm fairly sure were loosing Clara at the end of this season (or at least Christmas) so maybe Danny has to sacrifice his life / soul to stop the Cybermen (return to emotions to the uploaded personalities?) and that puts her off traveling? Alternatively she dies and is uploaded as well to live happily ever after with him?

Even bolder might be to have Pink downloaded into a Cyberman body and become a companion in that form (at least for Christmas)

[Enigma]

Is there any news of Jenna Coleman leaving DW? If not, then unfortunately, she might be sticking around for a while.

[InsaneTD]

I keep hearing that she's leaving at Christmas, but I don't remember seeing anything official.

Edit: Stupid phone.

[2000AD]

Hang on. So the dead 'souls' are actually just being stored in that floaty computer ball thing, where Danny and Chris Addison's character are right now is inside that floaty ball, that's where the dead peoples memories and stuff are stored right? So how come we saw The Master/Mistress in there earlier on in the season greeting some of the dead people?

Was Master/Mistress dead and stored in there but found some way to get out and be 'reborn'?

[mr friendly guy]

The Nethersphere is described as a Gallifreyan Matrix Slice. So if its anything like the Matrix which the Time Lords used to store the thoughts of dead Time Lords, a living person could enter it just like how the Doctor entered the Matrix several times in the classical series (Deadly Assassin, Trial of a Time Lord : The Ultimate Foe).

[NecronLord]

The Master, also, was sufficiently a master (snrk) of the technology that the 'Keeper of the Matrix' was baffled by how he managed to enter and leave it.

[Enigma]

Was there an explanation as to how the Master escaped from Gallifrey?

[InsaneTD]

No, but considering how much he's done, I'd say he slipped out a crack in the universe a while ago.

[Havok]

The Doctor could very well still have his final battle and death on Trenzalore. The TARDIS definitely ends up there.

Yes, Coleman is leaving after the Xmas Special, already been announced.

I called the Master some time ago, but I can't remember what gave me the initial thought.

I liked Clara in this episode, she's being a real person for a change and not just a cutesy sidekick.

It doesn't really mater how the Master got out does it? Any explanation is going to go against something already established as "unchangeable". I'd like to know what regeneration he is on though. Have they said?

Watching, I totally wasn't even putting together the moving skeletons were Cybermen. Duh. I'm not sure why, I usually catch that stuff. I actually went "OH!" and pointed at the screen right when they wanted me to, when the elevator doors close.

I assume that Missy is just collecting people that the Doctor has let die or caused to die in the Soul Sphere for some other reason than being Cybermen.

I'm also assuming that Missy commandeered the company as Dr Chang says that someone actually discovered that the dead stay conscious and connected to their bodies. When that happened, who knows. It's not meant to be current is it? Although the mausoleum seemed to be present day. Maybe it's just a secret.

Now, here's the real question; How long is the Master going to stay in this regeneration? I like the idea of a female Master, but I'm thinking that they will kill Missy and she will regenerate into a different woman. Like how they introduced him last time.

Also, are there ANY plans or hints to bring back the Doctor's daughter? I think that would be a great dynamic we haven't seen before. Make her the next companion.

[mr friendly guy]

Was there an explanation as to how the Master escaped from Gallifrey?

Not yet. But given that the TL appeared capable of returning to the universe (they just weren't sure they were in the right universe) its not unreasonable the Master took the risk, got out of the pocket universe Gallifrey was stuck in and hoped he ended up in the right one. Which she did. Or should that be a he since we still aren't sure at what point the Master become the Mistress.

[Havok]

Also, is it just me or have the last two or three endings been very abrupt and awkward?

[Havok]

Was there an explanation as to how the Master escaped from Gallifrey?

Not yet. But given that the TL appeared capable of returning to the universe (they just weren't sure they were in the right universe) its not unreasonable the Master took the risk, got out of the pocket universe Gallifrey was stuck in and hoped he ended up in the right one. Which she did. Or should that be a he since we still aren't sure at what point the Master become the Mistress.

You're saying the Master got out on Trenzalore? Maybe. Although the Time Lords knew they had the correct universe, they just needed to know it was safe. I'm assuming that as they are in stasis and very possibly the same state as when they were put there, they would be relatively defenseless.

[mr friendly guy]

Was there an explanation as to how the Master escaped from Gallifrey?

Not yet. But given that the TL appeared capable of returning to the universe (they just weren't sure they were in the right universe) its not unreasonable the Master took the risk, got out of the pocket universe Gallifrey was stuck in and hoped he ended up in the right one. Which she did. Or should that be a he since we still aren't sure at what point the Master become the Mistress.

You're saying the Master got out on Trenzalore? Maybe. Although the Time Lords knew they had the correct universe, they just needed to know it was safe. I'm assuming that as they are in stasis and very possibly the same state as when they were put there, they would be relatively defenseless.

Not necessarily on Trenzalore. I guessing that sometime after Day of the Doctor the TL managed to free themselves from stasis or at least managed to start performing actions even if not at full capability. Otherwise how would they be able to give the Doctor a new set of regenerations?

The Master could have escaped any time between the end of Day of the Doctor and the start of Time of the Doctor. He presumably has one advantage, in the sense he just had to get himself back to the universe, whereas the Time Lords had to get an entire planet back.

[DaveJB]

It's also possible that the Master may not actually have been on Gallifrey when it was put into stasis. He/she may have gotten off the planet before that happened, and then escaped from the Time Lock by some other means (as Davros and Dalek Caan already did).

[2000AD]

So massive speculation time again, could Missy be a different incarnation of The Master to the one that last appeared in the revival?

IIRC origional Master was sucked into the Eye of Harmony in the 8th Doc TV movie. They were then somehow ressurected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War and given some more regens, this is the Jacobi/Simm Master that we saw last. Now presumably the Time Lords ressurected Master from memories that they had stored in this Matrix thing that Firendly Guy said above stored dead Time Lords thoughts. But presumably there is nothing stopping someone from creating a second Master if their thoughts are still in the Matrix. So if that Matrix piece somehow escaped Gallifrey (either before the Time War ended, when Galli was in Earth orbit briefly, cracks in time, etc) someone could have made a copy of The Master or knowing The Master they had some sort of backup plan that would trick someone into getting them out of their if they tried using the matrix.

[Broomstick]

Or the Master stole the body of the woman who found that ring in the episode where Ten cremated the Simms Master. The Master has stolen a body before, why wouldn't he do it again?

[mr friendly guy]

Does he still have the power to steal bodies. He stole Tremas body with the remaining power from the keeper of traken. He must steal bodies via another method.