Secondary hulls.

[FaxModem1]

One thing that has always bothered me with hull designs is the non-connected secondary hulls in some of their ships. For instance, the Oberth class.

Note the thin metal connection between the saucer section and the secondary hull. Would this essentially mean that the two hulls are cut off from each other other except by transporter, or that there is some rather small access way through that thin plating from Engineering to the Bridge?

This trend continues with other designs, such as the Steamrunner class:

Heaven help anyone who needs to adjust the deflector or anything else in the secondary hull in a crisis.

The Akira class also seems to suffer from the same problem, as does the NX-01 copycat the Enterprise, with it being a wonder that engine hull.

So, how do they do it? Is there enough room in the support beams, is there nothing to get in the secondary hull, and thus doesn't need the crew to go there, or do they regularly use the transporter to get there?

[Darth Tanner]

I would have thought the connecting sections are more than thick enough for a turbo lift between whatever support structure is underneath the hull plates and maintenance tubes to access them. Also its quite likely there is limited need to access those sections... the Orbeth for instance the bottom section apparently holds two huge sensor arrays and cargo space... neither of which you probably need much access to except maintenance and loading.

What the rationale for not simply having a single bulkier and more compact hull is I don't know but with the Orbeth at least it could be beneficial for sensors to be away and separated from the rest of the ship? For the others maybe it is regards getting the navigational deflector into a specific arrangement?

[Elheru Aran]

In some of these cases, I propose that they just transport between the damn hulls. It could be possible to set up a dedicated inter-hull transport pad that's 'firewalled' (for lack of a better term) so you can use it in battle or whatever.

The other alternatives are that there may be a dedicated crew in the secondary hull, with their own quarters and equipment, beaming back and forth if there's a need, or as you said some small, cramped passageways or turbolifts.

In the Oberth at least, yeah, probably the secondary hull is mostly sensors and remote scientific equipment that can be run from labs or the bridge aboard the saucer.

With the Akira/Prise, it would be my contention that the secondary hull is probably empty and run remotely. If it needs access, get to it through the 'pylons'. Was the NX-01 supposed to be larger than the Akiras?

[Purple]

One thing to consider is the volatile nature of many things both carried as cargo and used as the ships main reactor. I would not be surprised if they just stuck the warp core there and had the crew observe it remotely from a safe distance.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In some of these cases, I propose that they just transport between the damn hulls. It could be possible to set up a dedicated inter-hull transport pad that's 'firewalled' (for lack of a better term) so you can use it in battle or whatever.

The other alternatives are that there may be a dedicated crew in the secondary hull, with their own quarters and equipment, beaming back and forth if there's a need, or as you said some small, cramped passageways or turbolifts.

In the Oberth at least, yeah, probably the secondary hull is mostly sensors and remote scientific equipment that can be run from labs or the bridge aboard the saucer.

With the Akira/Prise, it would be my contention that the secondary hull is probably empty and run remotely. If it needs access, get to it through the 'pylons'. Was the NX-01 supposed to be larger than the Akiras?

The Akiras are substantially larger; they're around 450 metres IIRC. Also, I think the pod on the AKiras serves the same purpose as on the Mirandas, it's a housing for a (largely automated) array of torpedo launchers.

[Prometheus Unbound]

One thing that has always bothered me with hull designs is the non-connected secondary hulls in some of their ships. For instance, the Oberth class.

Note the thin metal connection between the saucer section and the secondary hull. Would this essentially mean that the two hulls are cut off from each other other except by transporter, or that there is some rather small access way through that thin plating from Engineering to the Bridge?

That is actually apparently a sensor pod rather than decks for people to visit. I'm sure there's ways via Jeffries Tubes (like the Galaxy class Naecells) - possibly enough room for a single turbo lift.


Can't defend the rest though, they do seem strange designs.

Trek can certainly have dedicated internal transporters. I mean, they have the tech of course. but for something like the Akira I'd expect people to have access quite quickly to the torpedo bays - isn't "target their weapons" one of the first things most captains say?

As for the Enterprise, was that definitely where Engineering was? Because if so, I always thought that was strange. I just assumed it was a sensor pod or something. Engineering doesn't seem small enough to fit in there, considering the corridors and decks surrounding it.

[Lord Revan]

yeah the Akira-class is signifigant larger then the NX-class, the Akira is about 400-500 metres in length (IIRC) while the NX-class was about 80 metres (IIRC). Though in both cases the pod seems to be something that's not meant to be accessble during normal operations (NX-class main engineering is in the saucer and I got no idea where Akira's Main engineering is)

[Elheru Aran]

I am guessing that a torpedo pod could be automated fairly easily. You have a magazine in there (which is conveniently isolated if someone hits it in a fight, increases your survivability), set up some sort of feeding system and you're golden. There's really no reason for a torpedo bay post-TOS to be manned aside from maintenance and the occasional emergency launch.

Given the Akira's size, it's possible that the pod could be an engineering section, but it makes more sense for it to be a torpedo or sensor pod. On the Enterpoop... I have no idea. If it was possible to have two warp cores, I'd have said to put them into the pylons connecting saucer to nacelle, they're thick enough.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think the original designer's intention for the Akire was for the pod to either be rammed full of torpedo tubes (something like 15 IIRC) or that it woudl be a large hanger bay, letting the ship act like a cruiser/carrier hybrid.

[Lord Revan]

there's openings on the pod Akiras have that suggest torpedo tubes though I can't remember if we ever saw those actually fire, as for the NX-class I seem to remember reading that the pod was suppose to be warp field stabilizer or something like that though I also seem to remember it firing photons during the Xindi arc or season 4 (rear arc only though as front arc is blocked by the main hull).

[Eternal_Freedom]

We see the Akira-class USS [i[Thunderchild[/i] (I love that name ) firing torps from the pod in STFC, and I recall seeing an unnamed Akira firing torps again in one of the Dominion War battles as well (first battle of Chin'Toka IIRC).

[Lord Revan]

it's been a while since I last saw FC and I seem remember the Thunderchild or another unnamed Akira fire torps from the part just above the Nav deflector as well so I wasn't 100% if it was shown firing the pod or not

Also I seem to remember that notch on the leading edge of the saucer had doors on the Akira like if there was a hangar or cargo bay there.

[Crazedwraith]

I think the original designer's intention for the Akire was for the pod to either be rammed full of torpedo tubes (something like 15 IIRC) or that it woudl be a large hanger bay, letting the ship act like a cruiser/carrier hybrid.

It's like 7 launchers in the pod with the rest on the saucer including a couple on each side iirc. The Hanger bays are in the saucer as well. Big doors front and back.

[Irbis]

yeah the Akira-class is signifigant larger then the NX-class, the Akira is about 400-500 metres in length (IIRC) while the NX-class was about 80 metres (IIRC). Though in both cases the pod seems to be something that's not meant to be accessble during normal operations (NX-class main engineering is in the saucer and I got no idea where Akira's Main engineering is)

Uh, according to this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en# ... S-p_lOgPMJ

Akira is 250 m long while NX01 was 335 m long. So, 1/3 larger, actually. And yes, NX engineering was in back of saucer:

[Lord Revan]

hmm I'd like to know how they came up with the 335 m figure sure if you put Akira and NX side by side and assume every portions are the same the NX comes out slightly longer as the Akira Nacelles are more forward, but everything I've seen seems to suggest that the bridge module on the NX is in fact at most the same size as in the Akira and thus the NX is smaller of the 2 (as Akira's module is smaller reliative to saucer).

[Prometheus Unbound]

We see the Akira-class USS [i[Thunderchild[/i] (I love that name ) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb4BWSUV8mM

[Irbis]

hmm I'd like to know how they came up with the 335 m figure sure if you put Akira and NX side by side and assume every portions are the same the NX comes out slightly longer as the Akira Nacelles are more forward, but everything I've seen seems to suggest that the bridge module on the NX is in fact at most the same size as in the Akira and thus the NX is smaller of the 2 (as Akira's module is smaller reliative to saucer).

Hmm, I don't know, if you look at comparison picture:



And assume bridge and engines are roughly same size, NX should be the bigger one. But wouldn't be first time visuals in Trek didn't match numbers.

Also, what surprised me when I googled this is the amount of whining these ships are "identical". What? About the only similar feature is the rear minideck/engine structure, complaining about everything else is like claiming these two ships (also roughly century apart) are identical IMHO:




Not only you can find half a dozen "identical" features on both, complaining about sameness is rich coming from people who hypocritically ignore Enterprise C and D were virtually the same seen from side despite being century apart as well just to bash Enterprise

[Lord Revan]

I think a better way to figure out the size of the NX-class would to compare the bridge module size (which we know to be more or less the same size as the bridge set thanks to the episode where NX-01 got hit in the bridge and the shot blasted the roof and part of the walls of, to the overall size of the ship.

[seanrobertson]

FWIW, at one of the Flare forums, Foundation Imaging's Rob Bonchune wrote: "The Enterprise length has been set at 225 meters. Width of the primary hull: 136 meters. The dimensions and specifics where given to us by Doug Drexler/Star Trek art department. Doug built the prototype."

David Stipes might've been right about the Akira's scaling in DS9, but judging its size relative to other craft is tough; it's usually in the background in those big fleet shots, where it sometimes looks shorter than an Excelsior and even a Steamrunner -- but not always. A better metric? Up-close shots of the Akira in "Message in a Bottle," which was easily three or more times longer than its Defiant-class escorts.

FWIW, Bernd Schneider's analysis pointed toward a ~440 meter-ish long ship. That's close to Alex Jaeger's ~499m Akira (ILM size chart for "First Contact"). And its lifeboats, which are outwardly identical to a Sovereign's and presumably the same size, would fit perfectly on the 440m long version.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, what surprised me when I googled this is the amount of whining these ships are "identical". What? About the only similar feature is the rear minideck/engine structure, complaining about everything else is like claiming these two ships (also roughly century apart) are identical IMHO:

It's not just that, there is also the overall shape and configuration, the way the struts to the rear section are included as raised sections in the dorsal saucer section.

Your comparison to the E-C/D is facetious, since the Galaxy class was supposed to be a direct evolution of the Ambassador, which in turn was the evolution of the Excelsior. There is a direct lineage to the designs from E-B to E-D.

The annoyance with the NX-01 and the Akira is the similarity in the design coupled with the two-century time span between the designs, with no clear link between them other than visual similarity. The NX-01 is an explorer whilst the Akira is supposed to be more of a warship built to fight the Borg.

As for sizes, I'll stick to what's on Memory Alpha over Ex Astris Scientia, since the Memory Alpha articles quotes the actual model designers for size.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

The NX-01's Warp Core is most definitely located in the primary hull: