Federation and in vivo genetics?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Their distrust of augments is kinda understandable, what with all the shit that Khan and Soong did. And then there were the disastrous Klingon attempts at it- I think their reasoning was that the idea of a species they considered weaker than themselves suddenly becoming superhuman was unacceptable.

From what I remember, Bashir was enhanced because as a child he was retarded- while other kids were handling numbers, he was still struggling to tell 'dog' from 'cat' and 'tree' from house.

From Memory Alpha:

At age six, Bashir was small, not very bright, and a bit physically awkward for his age. In the first grade, while the other children were learning how to read and write and use a computer, Julian was still trying to tell a dog from a cat and a tree from a house. He never really could understand what was happening, but he knew that he wasn't doing as well as his classmates. There were several concepts they took for granted that he couldn't begin to master, but he didn't know why.

What they actually did to him was something called "Accelerated critical neural pathway formation", and by putting him in a new school with falsified med records they effectively covered it up and he turned into a genius.

Of course, another part of the reason that such treatments were banned was because of the side effects- something Bashir himself was spared. It could be argued of course that the side effects were in part because of their clandestine nature. Had development been allowed to continue in the open they could well have eliminated the side effects entirely.

[Havok]

Seconded. There's a difference between fixing genes that are obviously broken and trying to 'improve' on a genome that works just fine.

And where do you draw the line between fixing and working just fine? Is gene that breaks when you're 3 years past average life expectancy fine or not? Is muscle 15% weaker than norm, but still within human average, broken or not?

Is the variance from the norm going to hinder the child/person? Y: Fix N: Leave alone
I mean it really is that simple.

Is a gene that makes your wounds heal twice as fast, but increases chance of blood clots and strokes if you don't eat perfectly balanced diet, broken or not?

This is where you get into superhuman territory. This is where Khan is and the reason you don't do it. If we get there with "regular" medical advancements, then fine, but you don't force the issue. Again, fairly simple.

It's always possible to move the barrier just that single additional step forward, especially given how wonky work the evolution did with 'working fine' and given how much people care about giving their kids good start.

And this is where you are in Bashir territory and probably the most common ( I would imagine) violation of the law. I think, as we saw, that the Federation is able to handle these on a case by case basis and punish accordingly.

[Havok]

The thing is, Bashir shows that even with a disability, they don't make changes.
Question: Was his developmental issues something they couldn't identify in the womb and like Memory Alpha alludes to something seen only once he started in school?

Also, isn't six a little old to be just learning to read and write?

[Irbis]

Is the variance from the norm going to hinder the child/person? Y: Fix N: Leave alone
I mean it really is that simple.

And stupid. Who is going to make that decision? Doctors? Planetary scale panels? First option is inherently unstable and corruptible, second one causes tragedies by making people fall through cracks of one size fits all approach. Not to mention the simple fact that hindrance is subjective, varies from person to person, and require double standard in medicine (unless you propose to stop curing all non-hindering diseases and problems).

This is where you get into superhuman territory. This is where Khan is and the reason you don't do it. If we get there with "regular" medical advancements, then fine, but you don't force the issue. Again, fairly simple.

Nope, what I mentioned is natural, real world mutation. Do you excise it because it's "superhuman" and would be a huge hindrance without modern medicine? Or accept some people will be far superior due to luck of the draw?

And this is where you are in Bashir territory and probably the most common ( I would imagine) violation of the law. I think, as we saw, that the Federation is able to handle these on a case by case basis and punish accordingly.

That's why I said such system is corruptible - no matter what sort of barrier you erect, in two, three decades it will be standing in middle of accepted (if clandestine) practice. If there is a push to eliminate worst genes from the pool, random mutations will on average produce better and better genes with time, even if you can condition humans somehow to not look as strongly for children as they do today.

[bilateralrope]

That's why I said such system is corruptible - no matter what sort of barrier you erect, in two, three decades it will be standing in middle of accepted (if clandestine) practice.

True. But the illegal genetic modification industry will choose to limit itself to having the modified appear human because the modifications need to stay hidden.

If it's legal, then you will get people going further because they don't need to hide. Get enough people modified to be better than human and the unmodified become a sort of underclass where everything they can do, a modified individual can do better.

Worse still is if the modifications start adding things like telepathy. I remember one Voyager species that outlawed violent thought in everyone because if one of them picked up a violent thought from someone else, they often acted it out. Or look to Vulcans who suppress all their emotions, which seems like their solution to the same problem. In both cases, the telepathy forced major changes on their society.

[Havok]

Is the variance from the norm going to hinder the child/person? Y: Fix N: Leave alone
I mean it really is that simple.

And stupid. Who is going to make that decision? Doctors? Planetary scale panels? First option is inherently unstable and corruptible, second one causes tragedies by making people fall through cracks of one size fits all approach. Not to mention the simple fact that hindrance is subjective, varies from person to person, and require double standard in medicine (unless you propose to stop curing all non-hindering diseases and problems).

Bullshit. There is no double standard. Societies have established levels of what is considered acceptable norms, like say an IQ scale. If you fall under a certain level, it is deemed a handicap, so if the issue is going to put the person under that level, you fucking fix it. Does this allow for stupid people? Of course. So fucking what. If every person in the world got a Master's degree, there are going to be dumbasses with Master's degrees. And I am sorry, but there is no such thing as a non-hindering disease, and perhaps you should look up the definition of 'problem'.

This is where you get into superhuman territory. This is where Khan is and the reason you don't do it. If we get there with "regular" medical advancements, then fine, but you don't force the issue. Again, fairly simple.

Nope, what I mentioned is natural, real world mutation. Do you excise it because it's "superhuman" and would be a huge hindrance without modern medicine? Or accept some people will be far superior due to luck of the draw?

Hey retard: "BUT YOU DON"T FORCE THE ISSUE." If I don't have a problem with it occurring through normal medical and health advancement, why would I have a problem with it occurring naturally? Maybe you need some gene modification.

And this is where you are in Bashir territory and probably the most common ( I would imagine) violation of the law. I think, as we saw, that the Federation is able to handle these on a case by case basis and punish accordingly.

That's why I said such system is corruptible - no matter what sort of barrier you erect, in two, three decades it will be standing in middle of accepted (if clandestine) practice. If there is a push to eliminate worst genes from the pool, random mutations will on average produce better and better genes with time, even if you can condition humans somehow to not look as strongly for children as they do today.

Based on what evidence?

[FaxModem1]

One possibility regarding Bashir that makes things different is the advances in technology. Bashir was born over thirty years prior to DS9's sixth season, putting it before when TNG starts. By the time we get to Torres and Paris's kid, there might have been enough advancement in technology to detect something before birth. In-between these two events is the genetic engineering lab from Unnatural Selection that made nothing but perfect children. Maybe that had a factor on the genetic engineering in the Federation.