Why SW over ST

[TheDarkling]

They have had a few episodes on the Vulcans, one had some well respected Vulcan being shipped home for some mistake they made, another had Archer swallowing his pride to ask Vulcans for help, then they met the Vulcans for feelings and then theres the Vulcans Vs Andorians in fact every single time he spoke to his commanding officier the Vulcans came up.

It got to point where every scene played out like this.

Archer: I hate them Dam Vulcans...
Trip: Yep sure do cap'n
Reed:They wont let me look at their weapons
Travis:...
Camera pans away from Travis he doesnt need dialogue.
T'Pol: Yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah
Phlox:Quick everyone into the decon chamber by which I mean T'Pol and some other random person.
Hoshi: I dont like adventure, I want to go home.

Later in the Decon chamber.

Archer:I hate them Dam vulcans.

FADE TO BLACK.

Well you get the idea.

[Perinquus]

A new hope lousy??? why... how... wha? it was a great film true SW magic unlike the new trilogy (good films but they just dont compare to the others im hoping EP 3 will).

They are going to show us the Romulan war? where did you hear this - it might actually, some what, maybe salvage the show ... prehaps.

You do realize that the first trilogy was made a long time ago, and has had all that time to acquire a semi-legendary status? Moreover, if you are my age (33) or younger, then you first saw the original three at a far younger age, when you were a lot more impressionable and a lot less critical. If you are expecting any movie to have the almost magical effect that the first Star Wars had on you as a kid, I got news for you: it ain't gonna happen.

Look at the reaction of kids today who are seeing both TPM and ANH at essentially the same age - they like each film about equally well (and probably find the special effects and the lightsaber fight in TPM a lot cooler).

Truth is, when viewed objectively, ANH has about as many flaws story-wise as TPM does. I mean, think about it for a minute, what are the odds that a military organization (i.e. the Rebel Alliance) is going to allow a completely untrained boy, whom they don't know from Adam to fly one of their hottest fighters in one of thier most elite squadrons, when said boy has never flown such a craft in his life, hasn't a shred of military training or combat experience that they know of, and isn't even a member of their organization? This is a plot hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through, and it's just the first one that occurs to me. Given time I'm sure I can think of others.

But of course, when I was an eight year-old kid sitting spellbound in the movie theater in 1977, this never occurred to me for an instant... or to you either I expect. I just sat back and enjoyed the ride.

Now people who are more than twenty years older, and far far more critical in their thinking are going to watch the new SW films, and very unreasonably expecting to get that same almost magical reaction they had way back when they were kids.

I repeat: it ain't gonna happen. So just accept this and enjoy the new trilogy for what it is - a pretty decent sci fi film series.

[Master of Ossus]

They really do shoot a lot of scenes in the decon chamber, don't they? Now, I go for selling sex, but occasionally a show or movie or whatever goes so far in such an attempt that I become offended. It's like they don't expect you to care what's going on, as long as they have some woman in a bikini. Enterprise's scenes in that chamber really piss me off because they always feel SO extraneous to the actual plot of the episode that I really can't understand how a rational being would not recognize what's going on.

That and T'Pol is not that attractive.

[TheDarkling]

Perinquus:It just isnt as good a film in ANH I dont cringe at certain characters but watch TPM and Anakin walks on then Jar Jar and its almost painfull to watch.

TPM and AOTC had some good fights and battles in them but there were just lacking in depth not that the OT was filled with depth but at least we were going somewhere with it, the PT so far has very little going on - it will have once it put together but all thats really happened is Naboo was saved and a fight broke out on Genosis.

Compare this to destroying the death star a weapon capable of destroying entire worlds, or in ESB when han ends up capture and freeze dried plus Luke hears Vaders big secret, and ROTJ also has big events.

The TPM is watchable dont get me wrong but it just isnt on the same level as the OT, I can watch the OT and not be bored I, watch the TPM and im just waiting for the light saber fight to start.

As for the plot hole he is vouched for by Biggs and they needed everyone they could get their hands on.

[SPOOFE]

Star Wars, while by no means perfect, at least has not been destroyed by the combined power of technobabble, bad writing, and Hollywood, left-wing utopianism.

No, but it was heavily wounded from Episode I. In my opinion, however, AOTC managed to salvage it.

[Perinquus]

Perinquus:It just isnt as good a film in ANH I dont cringe at certain characters but watch TPM and Anakin walks on then Jar Jar and its almost painfull to watch.

TPM and AOTC had some good fights and battles in them but there were just lacking in depth not that the OT was filled with depth but at least we were going somewhere with it, the PT so far has very little going on - it will have once it put together but all thats really happened is Naboo was saved and a fight broke out on Genosis.

Compare this to destroying the death star a weapon capable of destroying entire worlds, or in ESB when han ends up capture and freeze dried plus Luke hears Vaders big secret, and ROTJ also has big events.

The TPM is watchable dont get me wrong but it just isnt on the same level as the OT, I can watch the OT and not be bored I, watch the TPM and im just waiting for the light saber fight to start.

As for the plot hole he is vouched for by Biggs and they needed everyone they could get their hands on.

I will agree with you about Jar Jar (he makes me cringe too), but I honestly didn't think Anakin was that bad in TPM. I will also agree that TPM moves a bit more slowly than ANH, but this tends to be true of any opening episode in a multi-act series -- setting the stage and filling in the background takes up time.

However I actually think TPM is a better film overall than ROTJ. ROTJ was easily the weakest of the original three. It was really like two completely separate films stuck together, and the Ewoks are nearly as painful to watch as Jar Jar.

As for the plot hole in ANH. I'm afraid your explanation doesn't cover it. Biggs was a brand new rookie in the Rebel organization. Higher ups just don't tend to take rookies very seriously. I still don't think it's reasonable to suppose that they would let this completely untrained nobody fly one of their hottest fighters, in one of their most elite squadrons, during the most important battle that any of them has ever fought. After all, no matter how much you "need everybody you can get", no military organization is going to do this, because a completely untrained individual is going to be a liability, not an asset -- he's going to blunder around, not knowing what he's doing, and he's just going to get in the way. He won't be familiar with your tactics; he's not checked out properly on his craft, and won't know its performance envelope; he won't know all your radio codes and terminology, so he'll likely not understand all the comm signals he gets; and most of all, as far as the skilled, experienced pilots go, he's just an unknown quantity they won't be sure they can rely on, and no assurances by a low-rank, green-as-grass rookie is going to overcome that.

Face it, no matter how you slice it, this is just a giant-sized plot hole. But as I said, it's not the kind of thing you notice as a kid.

Or here's another one for you: Why wasn't Luke court martialled for desertion in the face of the enemy after the Hoth battle? That's what it's called when you are part of an army in a shooting war, an you ignore your orders and slip off on your own, like he did to go to Dagobah.

And another one: how was Luke competent to face Vader in ROTJ? He had no extra training. He hadn't gone back to Dagobah yet to get any. When he goes off to fight Vader in TESB, Yoda and Ben both tell him his training's incomplete and he's not ready for Vader yet, then in ROTJ, he comes back to Yoda after getting his ass thoroughly kicked by dear old Dad, and Yoda now tells him his training is done. This is quite an inconsistency here.

Yet people who ignore gaping holes like this in the original trilogy are nitpicking TPM to death. Just sit back and enjoy the show like you did the first time.

[TheDarkling]

Perinquus: Thats just the way the rebellion operates Gavin Darklighter got into Rogue squadron and had no training - ye sthey started training at that point but they started going onto missions before they finished training, the Rebels were probably used to got people coming along signing up and being pressed into service snice it isnt for a few years that they grow beyond being a rag tag bunch.

Why wasnt he trued for desertion after Hoth? easy he had Jedi stuff to do and the rebels had respect for the Jedi thing since they saw restoring the Jedi as a priority.

Luke also got more experience by actually being a Jedi saving Han etc but in truth Yoda was almost dead he couldnt teach Luke anymore so he gave Luke the go ahead since it was now or never.
However he was ready to face Vader since he came very close to falling to the dark side.

Im not nitpicking things from TPM I dont question little details like that I just say that certain characters are irritating and that the story drags not to mention the odd story mnistake (Virgin birth?? puh lease).
Its an ok film and is worth watching but it doesnt measure up against some other good films like ESB of wrath of Kahn.

[Perinquus]

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. As far as I'm concerned, Luke's instant acceptance into Red Squadron is a plot hole. No professional military outfit could afford to operate that way or their ranks would be full of amateurs and tyros stumbling into each others' way and bungling every operation (believe me, I know; I was a squad leader in the infantry, and I can tell you that if you are untrained, you'll be a big hindrance to the unit, not a help).

No matter how good the reason, military organizations can likewise not afford to allow a breach of discipline such as disregarding orders and doing your own thing. It cannot! If it's that important for him to go and get Jedi training, he should get the approval of his commanding officer.

These things are just plot holes, but as I said, I'm able to overlook them and enjoy the movies.

[Mr Bean]

professional military outfit could afford to operate that way or their ranks would be full of amateurs and tyros stumbling into each others' way and bungling every operation

Realy? Proffessional Military outfit

Just like the Taliban eh?

Perinquus your not seriously saying the Rebels were nothing but pre-trained military fokes
And consider it this way his best friend was one of the Reds, and he brough back the second in Command of the Rebels I think they might give him an excpetition

[Perinquus]

professional military outfit could afford to operate that way or their ranks would be full of amateurs and tyros stumbling into each others' way and bungling every operation

Realy? Proffessional Military outfit

Just like the Taliban eh?

Perinquus your not seriously saying the Rebels were nothing but pre-trained military fokes
And consider it this way his best friend was one of the Reds, and he brough back the second in Command of the Rebels I think they might give him an excpetition

No, don't misunderstand. I am not analyzing this in my usual way (i.e. treating it as a historical record and dealing with it as though it were factual material). I am analyzing this as fiction writing. In that context, I'm saying it's a giant plot hole. It's just not realistic to suppose a modern, technically and tactically sophisticated military organization would behave this way. No matter that his best friend is a rebel pilot, and no matter that he rescued the princess. I'm sure those things would get him accepted as a recruit, but you just don't send someone straight into combat with no training, particularly on a mission as crucial as this. You'll not only get them killed, they'll endanger their more experienced comrades.

Now of course, I realize that for dramatic purposes, it was kind of necessary for GL to do it this way, and as I said, it didn't afect my enjoyment of the film, but it's still a big plot hole.

[Master of Ossus]

Perinquus: Thats just the way the rebellion operates Gavin Darklighter got into Rogue squadron and had no training - ye sthey started training at that point but they started going onto missions before they finished training, the Rebels were probably used to got people coming along signing up and being pressed into service snice it isnt for a few years that they grow beyond being a rag tag bunch.

Why wasnt he trued for desertion after Hoth? easy he had Jedi stuff to do and the rebels had respect for the Jedi thing since they saw restoring the Jedi as a priority.

Luke also got more experience by actually being a Jedi saving Han etc but in truth Yoda was almost dead he couldnt teach Luke anymore so he gave Luke the go ahead since it was now or never.
However he was ready to face Vader since he came very close to falling to the dark side.

Im not nitpicking things from TPM I dont question little details like that I just say that certain characters are irritating and that the story drags not to mention the odd story mnistake (Virgin birth?? puh lease).
Its an ok film and is worth watching but it doesnt measure up against some other good films like ESB of wrath of Kahn.

The Rebels at the time of ANH were VERY resource strapped. Remember that the crawl said that they had just won their FIRST victory against the evil Galactic Empire, and that they appeared to only have starfighters at the time (the fighters that won their first victory were from Yavin, which appeared to have very few capital ships, and certainly none that were combat ready).

I don't know why Luke was not tried, but it may be because everyone understood, or that they were just so desperate for skilled personnel that they did not care he had left for a while. The rebels appear to be fairly lenient as to how their personnel operate, in that they often allow their people to operate individually or in small groups (much as rebel groups in real life function). I, of course, can't give you a definitive answer, but that is possible.

I also don't know how you know for a fact that he was not tried.

[Perinquus]

Technically, I suppose we don't know for sure. But we see no indication that he was ever penalized in any way. And again I stress that this is the sort of behavior that no military organization can condone in wartime. Even when you havea really good reason, they tend to make an example of you so that others don't get the idea that they can ignore orders and leave when they want.

Moreover, Luke's particular manner of departure (i.e. during a battle with the Imperial forces) would look a lot like desertion in the face of the enemy (as opposed to mere desertion). Most armies tend to execute people for that sort of thing.

[HRogge]

Technically, I suppose we don't know for sure. But we see no indication that he was ever penalized in any way. And again I stress that this is the sort of behavior that no military organization can condone in wartime. Even when you havea really good reason, they tend to make an example of you so that others don't get the idea that they can ignore orders and leave when they want.

Moreover, Luke's particular manner of departure (i.e. during a battle with the Imperial forces) would look a lot like desertion in the face of the enemy (as opposed to mere desertion). Most armies tend to execute people for that sort of thing.

Unless it's your only jedi !