Sex before marriage is a sin... why?

[[BL]Phalanx]

In ancient Taoism, you could only be ordained a master if you were married, and both husband and wife became masters together. Celibacy was unthinkable...

[Darth Wong]

Naturally, since Taoism regards sexual energy as one of the crucial elements in the energy of life. This is worlds apart from Christianity, which regards it as a "defilement".

[Crown]

Where in the Bible does it say that you're not supposed to fuck before you get married?

It is never explicitly stated in the Bible. The closest thing that comes to saying it is in Leviticus (I forget which ref, but) where it says it is grounds for divorce if the female is discovered to not be a virgin before marriage. Which once again underlines the gender bias of the whole book.

[Trytostaydead]

That's not what Paul meant. He was speaking on celibacy. If you can't remain celibate to devote yourself to doing God's work, then it's best that you get find a nice little woman and get married otherwise the temptation to sin would be too great. Read before you try to flame.

And how does it detract from "doing God's work" to have sex?

Well, one of the things about being Christian is trying to win new disciples. Some people have taken that command to the extreme and obnoxious and homicidal inducing, but those who don't choose that path but still wish to do missionary works have their work cut out for them. Not only do they want to spend most of their time trying to share with those interested, but they also have to work with the community and also work for their keep. Such as Paul was a tent-maker.

These days, churches have fund-raisers to try to support their missionaries which makes life easier for them, but still.. they're dirt poor and it's NOT an easy life. God or Paul is not saying that you can't get married and do God's work or some such, he's just saying it's going to be REALLY hard. So if your heart is in doing His work completely, then do it and forget about sex, it's a huge distraction. If you can't, go get married and live a fruitful life and God will be just as happy.

Think about the life of a surgeon. Raising a family is extremely difficult. Not only are you working insane hours at odd times of the day, but you have to try to be a caring and nurturing role model as well, but oftentimes you just don't have the time. So unless you're one of the best specialists and can dictate your own times.. one of the two is going to be sacrificed.

[lgot]

the idea of virginal wedding come from the very notion they liked to have their women virgin (after all it was a deal made, nothing about love) and the guy would like to know he is buying the correct product when he wanted to buy some 13-14 years old girl. For most part also, if one buy the fiance and find she was not virgin would seems very bad, because the women was not supposed to leave the protection of the mother or father, would show that house was very lazy in the protection of the good costumes and not to be so easily trusted. Of course this is mechanism of control, mostly used over women - because not all guys in the world would be so respectful to follow the rules in the same way his future wife would. It was very commum in many societies...after all, a virgin give the guy the proff she never belonged to any other guy, which is something a lot of guys even today would love to find out...

[ArmorPierce]

Mostly from the new testament.

[Darth Wong]

Think about the life of a surgeon. Raising a family is extremely difficult. Not only are you working insane hours at odd times of the day, but you have to try to be a caring and nurturing role model as well, but oftentimes you just don't have the time. So unless you're one of the best specialists and can dictate your own times.. one of the two is going to be sacrificed.

In other words, God is like a REALLY unreasonable boss who not only doesn't want his minions to live for anything but his own interests, but is too fucking stupid to understand that people who live real lives can understand other people much better than those who deliberately insulate themselves from it (see Catholic priesthood).

[Trytostaydead]

In other words, God is like a REALLY unreasonable boss who not only doesn't want his minions to live for anything but his own interests, but is too fucking stupid to understand that people who live real lives can understand other people much better than those who deliberately insulate themselves from it (see Catholic priesthood).

You were scarred as a child, weren't you?

First of all, you as a scientist must know about unreasonable bosses. The ever screaming, "DAMMIT!! YOUR GOAL IN LIFE IS TO PLEASE ME!!" No over-time pay for working all through the night and flunking your classes.. pah, unreasonable..

Well, I cannot defend Catholics, not being a Catholic myself. Personally, I've always viewed Catholics as having too much pomp and circumstance especially considering that most of the apostles lived like paupers and lived AMONGST the people.

However, your attack was ill-founded there. As a non-denominational Protestant, our Pastors don't become Pastors overnight or just by attending some school. They were Doctors, NASA engineers, they've worked as engineers at JPL and had LIVES. Yes, some from college went straight for a Masters and Theology school because they felt that's what they really wanted to do, but the point is that they all lived life and made a choice that they wanted to go into missionary works.

So, if you're saying they're cut off from the outside world, I don't know where you're getting that idea.

As for His own interests? Maybe you're misreading the Bible, but unless you wish to devote your life to Missionary work, that "unreasonable" boss doesn't ask much more than to live a GOOD life. And what's wrong with that? Though in terms of Missionary, yes.. it's an incredibly difficult life. You'll never have the finer things in life, if you do raise a family yes, you'll be hard pressed be able to buy your wife fine clothes, or your children their Christmas wish-list. But once again, the Missionary field is not for everyone.. only those that WANT to do it.

I've often thought that once I get that MD, I'd want to disappear for a few years on a Medical Mission trip, not only as a Christian but a human being to help those without minimal medical care. Which is what other missionaries are doing, they aren't just preaching.. they're tilling the fields, building water systems, teaching, practicing medicine.

[Enforcer Talen]

define good life. much of the bible Ive read seems to involve arbitrary murder on a massive scale.

[Durandal]

In other words, God is like a REALLY unreasonable boss who not only doesn't want his minions to live for anything but his own interests, but is too fucking stupid to understand that people who live real lives can understand other people much better than those who deliberately insulate themselves from it (see Catholic priesthood).

You were scarred as a child, weren't you?

Actually, yes he was, quite literally. Read his home page. He was the victim of a racist attack.

[Darth Wong]

You were scarred as a child, weren't you?

Awwww, poor baby. Can't take the truth so you must attack the messenger?

First of all, you as a scientist must know about unreasonable bosses. The ever screaming, "DAMMIT!! YOUR GOAL IN LIFE IS TO PLEASE ME!!" No over-time pay for working all through the night and flunking your classes.. pah, unreasonable..

Yes, that man is a tiny fraction of the domineering prick that God seems to be.

Well, I cannot defend Catholics, not being a Catholic myself. Personally, I've always viewed Catholics as having too much pomp and circumstance especially considering that most of the apostles lived like paupers and lived AMONGST the people.

However, your attack was ill-founded there. As a non-denominational Protestant, our Pastors don't become Pastors overnight or just by attending some school. They were Doctors, NASA engineers, they've worked as engineers at JPL and had LIVES. Yes, some from college went straight for a Masters and Theology school because they felt that's what they really wanted to do, but the point is that they all lived life and made a choice that they wanted to go into missionary works.

As a non-denominational Protestant, your Pastors are allowed to have sex. Does it detract from their duties? Do you seriously think they'd be better pastors if they followed the policies of the Catholic priesthood?

So, if you're saying they're cut off from the outside world, I don't know where you're getting that idea.

Any lifetime virgin cannot possibly appreciate the sexual part of a normal person's life. What part of this do you refuse to understand?

As for His own interests? Maybe you're misreading the Bible, but unless you wish to devote your life to Missionary work, that "unreasonable" boss doesn't ask much more than to live a GOOD life.

And to worship every 7 days, and tithe one tenth of your income, and to reduce yourself to poverty for the church because it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Not to mention murdering people who swear at their parents, commit adultery, worship other gods, or engage in prostitution. You left a few parts out. And remember: Jesus said that NOT ONE WORD of the old law would be stricken from the books until the rapture/apocalypse/end times/kingdom of God/whatever you want to call it.

And what's wrong with that? Though in terms of Missionary, yes.. it's an incredibly difficult life. You'll never have the finer things in life, if you do raise a family yes, you'll be hard pressed be able to buy your wife fine clothes, or your children their Christmas wish-list. But once again, the Missionary field is not for everyone.. only those that WANT to do it.

And why does God want people to worship him? Is it not narcissistic to want people to worship you? And what gives him the right to decide what is a good life, given the insane rules he pledged out in the Bible, not to mention his own mass murders?

I've often thought that once I get that MD, I'd want to disappear for a few years on a Medical Mission trip, not only as a Christian but a human being to help those without minimal medical care. Which is what other missionaries are doing, they aren't just preaching.. they're tilling the fields, building water systems, teaching, practicing medicine.

And teaching people to hate their own bodies, see sexuality as a sin, see differing beliefs as a "sin", worship a God who unrepentantly commits multiple acts of mass murder and whose idea of merciful justice is to torture people he doesn't like for all eternity ... yeah, I've heard this bit before.

[Trytostaydead]

The first bit was sarcasm my dear Mr. Wong. And you, you attack right from the onset.

Anyways, narcissim? Two ways you can deal with that, would you not want your child to love you? Then the response will be, what about those that choose not to love him 24/7? Fine, King David is a fine example. A great sinner that man was, but one thing endeared him to God. He kept coming back like a little dog with his tail between his legs or that mischevious son you have to discipline.

Once again, on the topic of sex. Paul's suggestion of "burning" (with passion was what he meant, not hell), means that love can be a distraction to your works. But he was specifically aiming for was the "gift" of celibacy. If you can be celibate, GREAT.. go out there and do all that you can. If you can't, then get married.. fulfill your libido and do all that you can. He was pointing out that sex is a great distraction. If you can resist it, more power to you. If you can't, doesn't mean you can't become a good person or good worker.. just means you better do something about it otherwise it'll keep proving to be a big distraction to you.

Any lifetime virgin cannot possibly appreciate the sexual part of a normal person's life. What part of this do you refuse to understand?

Sorry, I was referring in Christians and missionary workers in general, not just Catholics.

And to worship every 7 days, and tithe one tenth of your income, and to reduce yourself to poverty for the church because it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Not to mention murdering people who swear at their parents, commit adultery, worship other gods, or engage in prostitution. You left a few parts out. And remember: Jesus said that NOT ONE WORD of the old law would be stricken from the books until the rapture/apocalypse/end times/kingdom of God/whatever you want to call it.

He was speaking on the affliction that seems to affect the rich, they want more. It was by no means saying you CAN'T be rich. But what will your life be driven by? To acquire more riches? And if you believe that it WAS God that gave you life, no reason to say a little thank you every morning or donate a small portion of your wealth.

And it's not the AMOUNT that was important. 10% was given as a ballpark figure. The real amount is what you're WANT to give that matters. If I put let's say $100 a week out of routine into the basket, does that make me a good man if it really costs me nothing to do so? How about a poor lady that only once a month puts maybe $50 into the basket and while that might not be 10% of her income, that's all she could afford. The latter, would be more pleasing.

You're right, not a Word will be stricken. However, there are some things that became null and void. Such as only Jews can be God's people, even women's place in the religious hierarchy was made important (but few people deign to see that for some reason), and the ceremonial signs were declared.. just that, ceremonial. In Romans, all the old laws do not apply, because they were very ceremonious for sanctity and holiness, but applied in a full swoop under the new convenent, that only one thing was needed for sanctification instead of all 600.


Why does God want people to worship Him? Replace the word "worship" with the word "love" and its an easier translation. He wants us to LOVE him, as a child would love a parent. He gave us something of a curse and a boon, free will. Would you rather have your child love you because he genuinely does? Or would you rather implant a device that would make him completely obedient and love you? Though conversely, our free will gives us the choice to hate Him as well.

A lot has been said about the murders in the OT. Well, that's because it's the OT. The OT is about the original Covenant that God made with Abraham, to establish the nation of Israel. There was first the creation of the nation on already occupied land, then God kept making His presence known, then punishing the Israelites, and so forth. And then trying to wipe out mankind after He grew disgusted with them..

Teaching people to hate their bodies? Sexuality is a sin? Never have I heard it taught that we have to hate our bodies! Maybe in previous puritanical rampages, yes. As for sexuality? I presume you're talking about homosexuality and sodomy or other forms of sex?

Why not? Why can't you say that holes have a very specific purpose? You can say that in a biology class, but you can't say it in a religion? How odd. But as for those people who go screaming that homosexuals are going to hell, etc etc.. I have a beef with them too. I have gay/lesbians and bi friends, they know where I stand on their sexuality but I don't shove it in their faces, nor should anyone.

But on the topic of sin and sexuality, perhaps the best example is David. David had a man killed to satisfy his lust yet God still called him after His own heart. God does not EXPECT a perfect life. If you did live perfectly, your name would be Jesus Christ and not think a bad thing in your life. What made King David so special to God was that David came back to God, a la prodigal son, each time and truthfully felt remorse for what he had done.

Such as in the prisons. The one person they'll always cry out for or ask to speak to are one of their parents (usually mother), and the mom will usually come. Why? Because no matter what crime their son has committed, it is their child and when they are called, they'll come.

[Darth Wong]

The first bit was sarcasm my dear Mr. Wong. And you, you attack right from the onset.

I attack the subject, and I attack people for saying stupid things. You use attacks as a distraction. There's a difference.

Anyways, narcissim? Two ways you can deal with that, would you not want your child to love you? Then the response will be, what about those that choose not to love him 24/7? Fine, King David is a fine example. A great sinner that man was, but one thing endeared him to God. He kept coming back like a little dog with his tail between his legs or that mischevious son you have to discipline.

I want my son to love me but I don't expect him to worship me. That's the difference between love and narcisissm.

Once again, on the topic of sex. Paul's suggestion of "burning" (with passion was what he meant, not hell), means that love can be a distraction to your works. But he was specifically aiming for was the "gift" of celibacy. If you can be celibate, GREAT.. go out there and do all that you can. If you can't, then get married.. fulfill your libido and do all that you can. He was pointing out that sex is a great distraction. If you can resist it, more power to you. If you can't, doesn't mean you can't become a good person or good worker.. just means you better do something about it otherwise it'll keep proving to be a big distraction to you.

Yes, so the ultimate follower of God is someone so grossly abnormal that he lacks the natural sex drive of a normal person. And this is good ... why? Oh yes, because God wants people who are totally one-dimensional, rather than well-rounded human beings.

Any lifetime virgin cannot possibly appreciate the sexual part of a normal person's life. What part of this do you refuse to understand?

Sorry, I was referring in Christians and missionary workers in general, not just Catholics.

Then why are you disagreeing with me? I'm specifically discussing Paul's asinine hatred of sexuality. This is a guy who tells men to hate their own bodies and stood as the forefather of Christian misogynism for centuries to come.

And to worship every 7 days, and tithe one tenth of your income, and to reduce yourself to poverty for the church because it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven. Not to mention murdering people who swear at their parents, commit adultery, worship other gods, or engage in prostitution. You left a few parts out. And remember: Jesus said that NOT ONE WORD of the old law would be stricken from the books until the rapture/apocalypse/end times/kingdom of God/whatever you want to call it.

He was speaking on the affliction that seems to affect the rich, they want more. It was by no means saying you CAN'T be rich.

Actually, the text is quite literal; a rich man will not get into heaven. People insist on adding extra layers on top of that because they want to believe they're present, but they're not.

But what will your life be driven by? To acquire more riches? And if you believe that it WAS God that gave you life, no reason to say a little thank you every morning or donate a small portion of your wealth.

And what does he need it for? Oh yes, so more people can worship him in more opulent surroundings!

And it's not the AMOUNT that was important. 10% was given as a ballpark figure. The real amount is what you're WANT to give that matters. If I put let's say $100 a week out of routine into the basket, does that make me a good man if it really costs me nothing to do so? How about a poor lady that only once a month puts maybe $50 into the basket and while that might not be 10% of her income, that's all she could afford. The latter, would be more pleasing.

Yes, I know, it pleases God to see poor people driving themselves even deeper into poverty in order to worship him. A true bastard he is.

You're right, not a Word will be stricken. However, there are some things that became null and void. Such as only Jews can be God's people, even women's place in the religious hierarchy was made important (but few people deign to see that for some reason), and the ceremonial signs were declared.. just that, ceremonial. In Romans, all the old laws do not apply, because they were very ceremonious for sanctity and holiness, but applied in a full swoop under the new convenent, that only one thing was needed for sanctification instead of all 600.

So how do you address the various parts of the law which are supposedly not stricken, and were not explicitly repudiated in the New Testament such as the various hatemongering laws I mentioned? Bury your head in the sand? And how does a loving, merciful God decide to torture his enemies for all eternity? Can you think of a good reason besides "he's basically an asshole?"

Why does God want people to worship Him? Replace the word "worship" with the word "love" and its an easier translation. He wants us to LOVE him, as a child would love a parent. He gave us something of a curse and a boon, free will. Would you rather have your child love you because he genuinely does? Or would you rather implant a device that would make him completely obedient and love you? Though conversely, our free will gives us the choice to hate Him as well.

If my child did not love me, I would be unhappy but I certainly wouldn't torture him forever as punishment. I would still want the best for him. I guess God doesn't understand the love of a parent.

A lot has been said about the murders in the OT. Well, that's because it's the OT. The OT is about the original Covenant that God made with Abraham, to establish the nation of Israel.

And how does this change the fact that the same God unapologetically committed these murders, yet we are to worship him now?

There was first the creation of the nation on already occupied land, then God kept making His presence known, then punishing the Israelites, and so forth. And then trying to wipe out mankind after He grew disgusted with them..

And again, how does this excuse mass murder?

Teaching people to hate their bodies? Sexuality is a sin? Never have I heard it taught that we have to hate our bodies!

Paul tells his followers that they must hate their own bodies, hate the material world, hate everything that distracts them from God. It's not my fault you don't know your own Bible.

Maybe in previous puritanical rampages, yes. As for sexuality? I presume you're talking about homosexuality and sodomy or other forms of sex?

And what about them? Homosexuality and sodomy are both punishable by death in the Bible, and eternal torture if you don't convert. Not a nice person, that God is.

Why not? Why can't you say that holes have a very specific purpose? You can say that in a biology class, but you can't say it in a religion? How odd.

"Holes have a very specific purpose?" What the fuck are you talking about?

But as for those people who go screaming that homosexuals are going to hell, etc etc.. I have a beef with them too. I have gay/lesbians and bi friends, they know where I stand on their sexuality but I don't shove it in their faces, nor should anyone.

It doesn't matter whether you shove it in their faces; if you worship a God who promises to torture them for all eternity as a result of their sexuality, then you're worshipping an asshole. I don't go harassing people at churches either; I'm just letting people know where I stand.

But on the topic of sin and sexuality, perhaps the best example is David. David had a man killed to satisfy his lust yet God still called him after His own heart. God does not EXPECT a perfect life.

Either that, or God just doesn't have a big problem with killing, since he cheered David on through countless massacres and committed countless massacres himself. When you look at the crimes for which people were killed by God in the Bible, it's quite clear that he's hardly as merciful as you would like him to be. All David proves is that he plays favourites.

If you did live perfectly, your name would be Jesus Christ and not think a bad thing in your life. What made King David so special to God was that David came back to God, a la prodigal son, each time and truthfully felt remorse for what he had done.

At no point did David feel any inkling of remorse for committing mass murder against non-Jews. I guess God is just too amoral to see that as a flaw.

Such as in the prisons. The one person they'll always cry out for or ask to speak to are one of their parents (usually mother), and the mom will usually come. Why? Because no matter what crime their son has committed, it is their child and when they are called, they'll come.

And if the child did not call, would the mother wish eternal suffering on him? Because that's what God does. I guess God's love is inferior to that of a typical mother; not a surprise, given his mass-murdering behaviour. I love the excuses people make for it too; "oh, but that was in the past, before he changed his mind about mass-murder!" People said the same thing about Karla Faye Tucker.

[Trytostaydead]

I'll just concentrate on two for right now..

Actually, the text is quite literal; a rich man will not get into heaven. People insist on adding extra layers on top of that because they want to believe they're present, but they're not.

And what does he need it for? Oh yes, so more people can worship him in more opulent surroundings!

No, it was not literal. Read again. The point Jesus was making was further exemplified in his encounter with the prince (translated, rich boy). The prince asked him what it would take for him to get into heaven. And Jesus told him to give up everything he had and to follow him. The point was not really giving up the riches, but giving up what was more important in his heart.

And yes, once again I sense an allusion towards the Catholic church. I heartily agree. God does not need such elaborate trappings. Maybe a nice church with comfortable seats so the parishners' butts may feel comfortable.. but those monstrosities of elegance and art I just appreciate not as a place of worship but for a museum tour. The best I can say is, I sure do appreciate some of my art books though, and I have to thank the church for that.

But seriously, I totally agree. Sure, one or two of those elegant cathedrals wouldn't hurt, but some of the church branches really take it to the edge and over.

[SirNitram]

If a powerful mortal man expects people to worship him, people think he's crazy. If a powerful immortal(Or even a non-powerful immortal.. See Poetes and Lartes, or Small Gods) expects such, it's seen as fine. Silly, silly...

[Steve]

To survive here, you must remember some crucial things, ill-named one (Trytostaydead).

The most crucial? The good (or should I say evil?) Engineer/would-be Sith Lord who runs this place is sensitive to issues involving religion and racism because of nasty past experiences in his life related to the scatter-brained adherents to the two things previously referenced.

Sensitive, as in, if you push his buttons, you get doused in a few gallons of napalm.

Thus, I would advise you to tread cautiously, because right now, you're essentially the equivalent of DeeDee romping through Dexter's Laboratory, pressing every button you find and unknowingly contributing to an inevitable doom.

You may go back to your regularly scheduled flamewar now.

[Trytostaydead]

To survive here, you must remember some crucial things, ill-named one (Trytostaydead).

The most crucial? The good (or should I say evil?) Engineer/would-be Sith Lord who runs this place is sensitive to issues involving religion and racism because of nasty past experiences in his life related to the scatter-brained adherents to the two things previously referenced.

Sensitive, as in, if you push his buttons, you get doused in a few gallons of napalm.

Thus, I would advise you to tread cautiously, because right now, you're essentially the equivalent of DeeDee romping through Dexter's Laboratory, pressing every button you find and unknowingly contributing to an inevitable doom.

You may go back to your regularly scheduled flamewar now.

Yes, I read up on it. Quite sad, I know of a few such stories like Mike's.. not saying that in any way reduces the travesty of what happened, but it's happened a lot to any non-white community. Though I'm happy to say this generation is becoming more tolerant, now the parents are just resigned to saying, "I'm not getting Korean grandkids from your brother.. my hope rests in you!!"

But there is a difference between being distrustful and hurt, and being belligerent and intolerant. But I guess that's life.. the actions of few will affect the many, and it usually takes 1,000 rights to make up for 1 wrong in the public's view.

[Uraniun235]

So if your heart is in doing His work completely, then do it and forget about sex, it's a huge distraction.

Yeah, because sex completely dominates a person's life and precludes them from focusing on other activities.

If you did live perfectly, your name would be Jesus Christ and not think a bad thing in your life.

Jesus Christ was FAR from perfect. I personally know better people than Christ ever demonstrated himself to be in the Bible.

[Tsyroc]

[
And how does it detract from "doing God's work" to have sex?

I always figured it was a good way to get someone interested in prayer.

"Oh God, oh God, Oh God, YES, YES, Yes, God"

Plus there's the good association afterwards. "God"---Orgasm---afterglow ~~~ "that God guy evented some good shit".

It sure beats the hell out of boring assed church where you sit in uncomfortable clothes, on an uncomfortable bench, listeing to someone yammer on about all kinds of crap when you would have rather slept in, or at least be watching football.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Personally it wasn't a requirement of the priesthood until much later.
That annoying bit of BS came in during the Rennisance.


Of course it was a hypocritical policy from the start (looks at illegitimate offspring of that era's popes)

Now the no sex before marriage laws actualy relate to the misogynistic view of women as property. You had to be sure you were buying what you thought you were buying. If you want to see just how perverted this attitude was back in the dark ages, read "Candide" or "The Name of the Rose"

[Darth Gojira]

Who wants to see JC open up a can of whoopass on that SOB Paul? I do!

[Darth Gojira]

Who wants to see JC open up a can of whoopass on that SOB Paul? I do!