Moderator: NecronLord
Misstaken planet, I do not question that Arkadia 7 was destroyed, not even babtech does that.Crossover_Maniac wrote:Let's see:
1). Arkada 7 is 'no longer there'. IOW: no trace.
No trace of the colony remains. You are assuming that this also means "no trace of the physical mass of the entire planet which contained that colony ". This assumption of yours is fantasy; nothing more.
here we clearly see that "its not there anymore" means that the whole planet itself is not there anymore.. not just the mass upon which the the base/colony resided.Marcus: ...We tried to track them. But we lost them at around sector 70..
Delenn: Theres a shadow base not far from there.
Ivanova: Exactly! so as soon we got back i had C&C MONITOR that area for any transmissions, anything unusual. The shadow base was located on a planet called arkada7. Its not there anymore.
Lennier: The base?
lyta: No! The planet! They destroyed...They destroyed an entire planet!
but what if the shadows had adopted another planet as their main hq, or home, wouldnt they have it similarly prepared for their eventual departure?..Zha'ha'dum was their homeworld for millions of years. That's quite a bit of time to prepare it for their eventual departure. It does not imply the ability to do this to any other world.
though i agree with you regarding the plausibility of the large fissures, and the fact we saw never saw supporting structures/frameworks as such. though to conclude that the planet has no mantle?.. perhaps the fissure wasnt deep enough.. afterall we dont exactly know how large z'ha'dum was.. However book 3 of the technomage trilogy nevertheless states z'ha'dum to have gravity 1.3 times normal.. cant remember the exact page, as i currently dont have the book on hand... heres a quote presented in another forum a year ago.Zha'ha'dum was not a normal planet. It is obviously moon-sized or smaller with no molten mantle, given the enormous fissures which are gouged deep into the planet. Gravity would close such a large fissure in a normal planet-sized object.
"The planet seemed to exist in twilight. The gravity, 1.3 times standard, pulled at his feet."
information from b5wars was granted canon status along with those from the novels and graphic novels approved by jms (all).. making it binding/accompanying canon to information directly from the series.. and at the very least holds official status.You're resorting to the use of gaming sites as evidence, and you don't realize that you come off as desperate?
true enough.. but the above quote regarding the status of arkada 7 definitely means that the whole planet was destroyed/shattered along with the base.He also said that we can destroy planets today, using nuclear weapons. He obviously means "destroy" only in the sense that Hiroshima was "destroyed", even though the ground under the city was completely untouched and there were large numbers of survivors.
what the shadows did there was just set up a small base/outpost. it was by no means their "new world", as in a new adopted homeworld. it was not meant to serve as their primary headquarters..which z'ha'dum was at the time.Fool, Warlock, of course the Shadows had another HQ world adopted. Weren't you paying attention at all to the series? Their new world was Centauri Prime. It was not rigged to blow the way Zha'Ha'Dum was.
Darth Wong wrote:No trace of the colony remains. You are assuming that this also means "no trace of the physical mass of the entire planet which contained that colony". This assumption of yours is fantasy; nothing more.Crossover_Maniac wrote:Let's see:
1). Arkada 7 is 'no longer there'. IOW: no trace.
Why did you claim that only the colony went missing when Lyta just said THE ENTIRE PLANET!!! Why did you feel the need to dismiss the dialogue to support your own argument? You're a liar that's why.Marcus: ...We tried to track them. But we lost them at around sector 70..
Delenn: Theres a shadow base not far from there.
Ivanova: Exactly! so as soon we got back i had C&C MONITOR that area for any transmissions, anything unusual . The shadow base was located on a planet called arkada7. Its not there anymore.
Lennier: The base?
Lyta: No! The planet! They destroyed... They destroyed an entire planet!
If it's wrong for me to go to an official website for information, then how come you can use the entire SW Extended Universe for your SW vs. ST arguments? Now, you're a hypocrit.Two points:2). The Shadows destroyed Zha'Ha Dum in "Epiphanies"
- Zha'ha'dum was their homeworld for millions of years. That's quite a bit of time to prepare it for their eventual departure. It does not imply the ability to do this to any other world.
- Zha'ha'dum was not a normal planet. It is obviously moon-sized or smaller with no molten mantle, given the enormous fissures which are gouged deep into the planet. Gravity would close such a large fissure in a normal planet-sized object.
You're resorting to the use of gaming sites as evidence, and you don't realize that you come off as desperate?3). The official B5Wars site said VPK can destroy planets smaller than a brown dwarf
And considering that the Shadow Wars were resolved in a day, I'd doubt they rigged their homeworld to blow up millions of years ago.adam warlock wrote:a few things:
but what if the shadows had adopted another planet as their main hq, or home, wouldnt they have it similarly prepared for their eventual departure?..Zha'ha'dum was their homeworld for millions of years. That's quite a bit of time to prepare it for their eventual departure. It does not imply the ability to do this to any other world.
we also dont know how long it took the shadows to prepare the means to shatter z'ha'dum. they couldve had the tools ready on day one of moving in, meaning it wouldnt have necessarily taken them millions of yrs to prepare for shattering the planet, just because they had stayed there for that amount of time.
Don't bother arguing with Mike about B5 canon. As far as he's concerned, only Star Wars is allowed to draw from the novels for their canon.though i agree with you regarding the plausibility of the large fissures, and the fact we saw never saw supporting structures/frameworks as such. though to conclude that the planet has no mantle?.. perhaps the fissure wasnt deep enough.. afterall we dont exactly know how large z'ha'dum was.. However book 3 of the technomage trilogy nevertheless states z'ha'dum to have gravity 1.3 times normal.. cant remember the exact page, as i currently dont have the book on hand... heres a quote presented in another forum a year ago.Zha'ha'dum was not a normal planet. It is obviously moon-sized or smaller with no molten mantle, given the enormous fissures which are gouged deep into the planet. Gravity would close such a large fissure in a normal planet-sized object.
"The planet seemed to exist in twilight. The gravity, 1.3 times standard, pulled at his feet."information from b5wars was granted canon status along with those from the novels and graphic novels approved by jms (all).. making it binding/accompanying canon to information directly from the series.. and at the very least holds official status.You're resorting to the use of gaming sites as evidence, and you don't realize that you come off as desperate?
well its his board i suppose.. he is entitled to his own policy of what can and can be used for debates here.. no need to attack him for it.Don't bother arguing with Mike about B5 canon. As far as he's concerned, only Star Wars is allowed to draw from the novels for their canon.
Its not his policy, it’s the official policies of the respective companies that he and every one these boards, go by. The fact that some franchisees don’t consider their novels canon is a fact of life, live with it.adam warlock wrote:well its his board i suppose.. he is entitled to his own policy of what can and can be used for debates here.. no need to attack him for it.Don't bother arguing with Mike about B5 canon. As far as he's concerned, only Star Wars is allowed to draw from the novels for their canon.
oh well.. no more vs debates or forums for a year..
off to University again.
really?.. in this case i most reluctantly conceedIts not his policy, its the official policies of the respective companies that he and every one these boards, go by. The fact that some franchisees dont consider their novels canon is a fact of life,
i will try my best...live with it.
adam warlock wrote:really?.. in this case i most reluctantly conceedIts not his policy, its the official policies of the respective companies that he and every one these boards, go by. The fact that some franchisees dont consider their novels canon is a fact of life,
Canon in B5 does not mean what it does in either SW or ST. It really just means that they are licensed.Crossover_Maniac wrote:adam warlock wrote:really?.. in this case i most reluctantly conceedIts not his policy, its the official policies of the respective companies that he and every one these boards, go by. The fact that some franchisees dont consider their novels canon is a fact of life,
Adam, I do know at least some of the B5 novels has been counted as official canon. I know which ones, but when I found out, I'll post them here. So, hold off your concession until everything been placed on the table.
Anyone can destroy a planet they have occupied for millenia assuming that they have technology as advanced as the Shadows. That is still not evidence that they could destroy another planet. What's more, the show takes precedence over the books (at least, it should). The realism of the fissures indicates that the planet's gravity is less than that. Even if it is a planet.Crossover_Maniac wrote:Thanks XaLEv. Since the Technomage triology is canon, Mike's theory that Zha' Ha Dum is moon size (with can be between 8-4000 km in diameters going by the moon in our solar systme) can be tossed out since Zha' Ha Dum's gravity is 1.3 g's. That gives it at least a diameter of 4800 km and requiring a minimum of 2.02E31 joules to destroy it assuming an average density of 19004 kg/m^3, which means a planet made entirely of heavy metals with a greater density than lead. Thanks Mike for the planetary destruction calculator.
I couldn't agree more. Master of Ossus has shown a blantant double standard in the consideration of what is canon and what isn't. Consider this quote from JMS himselfXaLEv wrote:How convenient. Any evidence for this assertion?Master of Ossus wrote: Canon in B5 does not mean what it does in either SW or ST. It really just means that they are licensed.
JMS actually took a very active role in the storyline of all of the B5 novels. OTOH: Lucas only counts the novels if they don't contradict the movies. JMS actually made sure there was no contradiction. IOW: the case for the canonization of the B5 novel is stronger than the extended Star Wars universe.In broad strokes, yes, the series is canon, since I came up with the outline for all the Del Rey novels. And overall, I'm very pleased with how they've been going.
Master of Ossus wrote:What of the ItB, differing on whether or not the Minbari paid reparations for the war to the EA (from the movie and show to the book)?
Were any Shadows ever stated to have died in the series in a situation where we would have seen a flash?What of the contradictory evidence on what happens when a Shadow dies (from the books to the show, when the death of some Shadows does not force them to flash)?
Consider this quote from JMS:These are serious contradictions that can only indicate one of two things.
1. The term "canon" in B5 means "official" in SW (that is, it can be contradicted by the show).
2. The term "canon" in B5 means "licensed."
I would take this to mean that the trilogies are canon, with any small inconsistencies being non canon. A bit like the way it is with the Star Wars EU. IE option 1.They are canonical in the broad strokes, though it's impossible to ride every single small detail and get anything done on any kind of reasonable schedule.
Good.Actually, looking at it, I think it reasonable to assume the former. Concession granted.
even if this planet was destroyed this doesn't prove the vorlon planet killer can destroy worlds in one shot.Crossover_Maniac wrote:Let's see:
1). Arkada 7 is 'no longer there'. IOW: no trace.
