Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

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Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Irbis »

Saudi Arabia: 'no single women' signs

Restaurants in Saudi Arabia have been asked to remove signs which forbid entry to single women, it appears.

Restaurant sign barring single women

A human rights group says signs banning single women are widespread

The request comes from the kingdom's National Society For Human Rights, which says the signs on the doors of eateries are "illegal", the Arabic-language Al-Hayat newspaper reports. A restaurant owner says he put up the signs because of "numerous incidents" of flirting. "We'll only remove these signs when we make sure such incidents never happen again on our premises," he told the paper.

NSHR spokesman Khalid Al-Fakhri tells the Saudi Gazette that restaurants have no legal right to exclude single women from their premises, or insist that they are in the company of a guardian. "These signs are against the law and reflect the personal opinions of the restaurant owners," he says, urging establishments to devise alternative arrangements if they think that customers are behaving inappropriately.

The paper quotes one woman as saying, "If they're going to ban us from entering restaurants, where are we supposed to go?" - pointing out that restaurants are some of the few establishments where Saudi women can go unaccompanied.
In fact, other articles about it were even more damning but since most of these were in right wing rags I went with most objective source I could find.

Hmm, where I saw something like that before? :roll:

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Oh, right, here. Back when it was still a "custom", not yet official state policy.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by AniThyng »

Unfortunately the removal of Nazism from Germany involved a brutal war of destruction and occupation...

But seriously, it seems the article is specifically about the restaurants being pressured to remove the signs.

I frankly don't see where else we would go on this - muslim thought is what it is, and secularization and westernization gets pushback even from moderate muslims. (who may also hypocritically support such repressive policies from the comfort of a more secular society, for what it is worth)
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Irbis »

AniThyng wrote:But seriously, it seems the article is specifically about the restaurants being pressured to remove the signs.
That's the thing - "pressured" by toothless NGO with a few dozen workers present in large cities only that might ask and insist but can do little if the authorities won't support it. The same authorities that OK sex segregation and do little to curb excesses of the mutaween (Islamic religious police). The dozen thousand strong, far better funded organization, supporting these signs.

But hey, I guess even such tiny voice of protest is some progress, despite a lot of signs pointing at them being just fig leaf used by the monarchy to deflect international criticism.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by mr friendly guy »

Come back to me when real sexism occurs in Saudi Arabia. Like a scientist giving an interview dressed in a tacky hawaiian shirt with comic book women in risque clothing. Now that's real sexism right there and we need to mobilise an army of Social Justice Warriors to fight this grave injustice.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

We have enough of your opinions on that topic in another thread and in your signature. Is it really necessary for you to drag other threads off-topic so you can continue your personal crusade against the awful "Social Justice Warriors"? Or is this just going to be your thing from now on? Every time the issue of gender relations is even mentioned you are going to just fall out of the woodwork masturbating to a lame pin-up girl shirt?
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Guardsman Bass »

It's pretty hilarious watching Mr. Friendly Guy and other people along those lines continue to get butt-hurt and whine . . . about something that they claimed wasn't a big deal anyways and stupid for women to complain about. Guess it was a big deal that the Big Bad Feminists expressed their discomfort with the shirt, considering that Taylor himself apologized for it and everyone who isn't whining about "SJWs" has accepted it and moved on. And naturally, it comes with the patronizing "Stop complaining, women! Don't you know who The Real Enemies are?"

But that's enough OT. This type of stuff is a reminder that a democratic Saudi Arabia might not be a lot more tolerant than the existing one. The population is extremely conservative as well.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by AniThyng »

Democracy alone is not a panacea for these things, especially when westernized values are concerned. Just look at the women's wings in Islamic parties in Malaysia. The idea that men alone are responsible for conservatism is too simplistic.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Hell, we've got that here in the US with Concerned Women of America and the Independent Women's Forum. And there were women's anti-suffrage organizations as well back in the early 20th century.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by mr friendly guy »

Guardsman Bass wrote:It's pretty hilarious watching Mr. Friendly Guy and other people along those lines continue to get butt-hurt and whine . . . about something that they claimed wasn't a big deal anyways and stupid for women to complain about. Guess it was a big deal that the Big Bad Feminists expressed their discomfort with the shirt, considering that Taylor himself apologized for it and everyone who isn't whining about "SJWs" has accepted it and moved on. And naturally, it comes with the patronizing "Stop complaining, women! Don't you know who The Real Enemies are?"

But that's enough OT. This type of stuff is a reminder that a democratic Saudi Arabia might not be a lot more tolerant than the existing one. The population is extremely conservative as well.
I am happy to take this in the other thread and I will confined my posts to the thread after this, and I will ask you to do the same if you really want to debate the issue. But I should point out the sticking point wasn't the shirt, its the bullying. Which you would know if you read the thread.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Guardsman Bass »

"Bullying", right. But I'll leave it out of this thread, and I have no desire to engage you further on it.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by mr friendly guy »

Pity because I always found your comments in other threads we both participated in insightful even if we disagreed. But suit yourself.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by LadyTevar »

Friendly Guy, Guardsman? Kiss and make up, or both of you get out of the thread and take it to PMs.
Now, get back to the OP. Understand?
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

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Well, its their country, they are an ally, and imposing 'foreign' values doesn't always work out so well. Official and unofficial diplomacy might work better to change things there if it can somehow work on the grassroots.

Can't help but wonder, though, if its because Saudi Arabia isn't democratic, that they never appear to socially outgrow regressive positions on women. Productive open debates about social policy and a religious police with teeth don't seem to go together.

If a majority really did support women's right to drive or visit restaurants, how could one tell?
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

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General Brock wrote:Well, its their country, they are an ally, and imposing 'foreign' values doesn't always work out so well. Official and unofficial diplomacy might work better to change things there if it can somehow work on the grassroots.
It's kind of funny seeing 'forcing' foreign values on 13 new EU states (or no more Euromonies or accession talks) kind of worked. Today, most of them dare to talk about rights of minorities, 15 years ago most went 'don't antagonise church and the faithful at any cost'...

Fuck, even in Poland with massive EU support church said 'we won't protest EU accession and make your life hell if you stop talking on giving the women any abortion rights' and the fuckers got it then :?
Can't help but wonder, though, if its because Saudi Arabia isn't democratic, that they never appear to socially outgrow regressive positions on women. Productive open debates about social policy and a religious police with teeth don't seem to go together.

If a majority really did support women's right to drive or visit restaurants, how could one tell?
Yeah, from my personal experience with regime far less restrictive and backwards than SA - you wouldn't knew unless you know someone really well and could talk in secluded place. Majority might support opinion but risk of beating with whatever police has on hand wonderfully cures too open mouths.

Open debates? You might have all open debates you want, if state forces a policy it becomes frozen and tends to stick not willing to change any even despite popular dissent. There is reason Central Europe is behind the West 30 years socially in some matters.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

The lack of democracy is certainly a factor in their regressive social situation, but I don't think there's any one-to-one causation there. That is, the fact that the government structure doesn't naturally allow for open debates helps reinforce and cement the attitudes towards women. But, for example, a stone's throw away is Oman, a country which is equally undemocratic but has infinitely more progressive attitudes towards women.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:The lack of democracy is certainly a factor in their regressive social situation, but I don't think there's any one-to-one causation there. That is, the fact that the government structure doesn't naturally allow for open debates helps reinforce and cement the attitudes towards women. But, for example, a stone's throw away is Oman, a country which is equally undemocratic but has infinitely more progressive attitudes towards women.
I don't think the United States wants democracy there, since the people there are most certainly going to lean Islamist, which has same connotations as Communism in Washington DC.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by AniThyng »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Ziggy Stardust wrote:The lack of democracy is certainly a factor in their regressive social situation, but I don't think there's any one-to-one causation there. That is, the fact that the government structure doesn't naturally allow for open debates helps reinforce and cement the attitudes towards women. But, for example, a stone's throw away is Oman, a country which is equally undemocratic but has infinitely more progressive attitudes towards women.
I don't think the United States wants democracy there, since the people there are most certainly going to lean Islamist, which has same connotations as Communism in Washington DC.
I think it's somewhat tangential, but relevant in the sense that some people see all this human rights talk as just another way to disguise american/western/christian/jewish control. Progressive/liberal Islam is seem as a way for such forces to co-opt and destroy islam from within, for example.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: I don't think the United States wants democracy there, since the people there are most certainly going to lean Islamist, which has same connotations as Communism in Washington DC.
While I'm sure that has crossed policy-makers minds, I think (and note this is just pure conjecture without any possible evidence to support this) that at the highest levels the US is deeply uncomfortable with the Saudi regime's continued existence. They are one of our few "Allies" in the region that we continually rely on for support (and give massive amounts of money), yet they are arguably one of the worst regimes in the region, both for their regressive social structure and complicated royal family and for their tendency to foster Islamist movements elsewhere.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by General Brock »

Irbis wrote:
General Brock wrote:Well, its their country, they are an ally, and imposing 'foreign' values doesn't always work out so well. Official and unofficial diplomacy might work better to change things there if it can somehow work on the grassroots.
It's kind of funny seeing 'forcing' foreign values on 13 new EU states (or no more Euromonies or accession talks) kind of worked. Today, most of them dare to talk about rights of minorities, 15 years ago most went 'don't antagonise church and the faithful at any cost'...

Fuck, even in Poland with massive EU support church said 'we won't protest EU accession and make your life hell if you stop talking on giving the women any abortion rights' and the fuckers got it then :?
Most prosocial western values are not that foreign to Central Europe, what with many westerners having Central European ancestry and getting along just fine.
Can't help but wonder, though, if its because Saudi Arabia isn't democratic, that they never appear to socially outgrow regressive positions on women. Productive open debates about social policy and a religious police with teeth don't seem to go together.

If a majority really did support women's right to drive or visit restaurants, how could one tell?
Yeah, from my personal experience with regime far less restrictive and backwards than SA - you wouldn't knew unless you know someone really well and could talk in secluded place. Majority might support opinion but risk of beating with whatever police has on hand wonderfully cures too open mouths.

Open debates? You might have all open debates you want, if state forces a policy it becomes frozen and tends to stick not willing to change any even despite popular dissent. There is reason Central Europe is behind the West 30 years socially in some matters.
That's not very encouraging given some of the regressive policies the West has nowadays.
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Re: Saudi Arabia: Women not welcome

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: I don't think the United States wants democracy there, since the people there are most certainly going to lean Islamist, which has same connotations as Communism in Washington DC.
While I'm sure that has crossed policy-makers minds, I think (and note this is just pure conjecture without any possible evidence to support this) that at the highest levels the US is deeply uncomfortable with the Saudi regime's continued existence. They are one of our few "Allies" in the region that we continually rely on for support (and give massive amounts of money), yet they are arguably one of the worst regimes in the region, both for their regressive social structure and complicated royal family and for their tendency to foster Islamist movements elsewhere.
We all like to think that, but there's a very strong school of thought within the State Department to "work with what allies we have, even though they might be responsible for the very mess we are embroiled in and will continued to be embroiled in."

Saudi Arabia isn't the only basket case the United States indulges in. Egypt, Pakistan. Let's throw in Israel for fun because they have been utterly intransigent and have constantly bedeviled Middle Eastern politics here and there.
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