Star Wars VII - Trailer Discussion

[The Romulan Republic]

Number scale is a hilariously bad way to put it with Alderaan anyway, because destroying Alderaan was destroying all but a few hundred thousand of a represented planet. Sure there were planets that had much more, and the scale of represented people(for lack of a better term) in the Star Wars galaxy is still massively massively greater than what was killed on Alderaan in that one shot. But that doesn't change the fact that whatever that number was, you're still looking at genocide. At least compare it to a proper historical event.

This is a very good point.

[Gaidin]

Yes - The USA started an era of wars over the death of 2,800 people on 9/11... that's 30 days of road accidents. Numbers of deaths is pretty silly way of judging an atrocity or its impact.

Did we ever try to call that more than an act of terror, at worst war? Could Alderaan be defined as anything but Genocide without redefining genocide?

[Patroklos]

I suppose it would depend on if you or more importantly the SW citizenry consider Alderaan a distinct ethnicity or just another planet populated by rich humans. Even their anti Empire politics that separates them from other groups of humans doesn't necessarily ring the genocide bell. If Russia nuked Rhode Island it would be rightly called a holocaust and some unique characteristics and culture would be lost but generally it would just be white people generally equivalent to the rest of them. Humans are routinely shown as majority or at least most numerous minority and generally rich and powerful.

I imagine in universe the posh rich core worlders like to maintain all sorts of differences between the various human power houses but to the average alien humans are humans. To the Outer Rim inhabitants core worlders are just core worlders, maybe even regardless of species (I always thought that divide was never properly played by authors). I'm not sure.

[Gaidin]

I suppose it would depend on if you or more importantly the SW citizenry consider Alderaan a distinct ethnicity or just another planet populated by rich humans. Even their anti Empire politics that separates them from other groups of humans doesn't necessarily ring the genocide bell. If Russia nuked Rhode Island it would be rightly called a holocaust and some unique characteristics and culture would be lost but generally it would just be white people generally equivalent to the rest of them. Humans are routinely shown as majority or at least most numerous minority and generally rich and powerful.

I imagine in universe the posh rich core worlders like to maintain all sorts of differences between the various human power houses but to the average alien humans are humans. To the Outer Rim inhabitants core worlders are just core worlders, maybe even regardless of species (I always thought that divide was never properly played by authors). I'm not sure.

Alderaan had their own representatives in the senate, making them their own analogue to a national group. Are we redefining genocide to not include national groups?

[bilateralrope]

Apparently there are people unhappy with choice of actor playing the unhelmeted stormtrooper. Some because they think all the stormtroopers are clones, others because they are racist.

Star Wars' "Black Stormtrooper" to Critics: "Get Used to it"
STEVEN BOGOS | 1 DECEMBER 2014 8:14 PM

Rumored Star Wars Lead John Boyega (the black guy in the Stormtrooper armor from the trailer) lays the smackdown on criticism of his character.

So that Star Wars Episode VII trailer was pretty great, even though it only gave us a few tiny glimpses of what was to come. One of those glimpses was a shot of John Boyega, who is rumored to actually be the lead of the film, in Stormtrooper armor looking quite worried. Boyega's appearance was met with praise by some, and criticism from others. The actor had the following to say regarding this on his Instagram account:

"Thank you for all the love and support! The fan mail and fan art has added to my joy! Isn't it crazy that Star Wars is actually happening? I'm in the movie but as a Star Wars fan I am very excited. To whom it may concern... Get used to it. "

Critics of Boyega base their argument on the fact that the Empire is meant to be an analogy for Hitler, the Nazis, and the "Master Race," and thus having a black actor portray a Stormtrooper undermines that analogy.

However, I believe it's way too early to be jumping to such conclusions. We have no idea what kind of role Boyega will be playing in the film. Considering that he is rumored to be the lead, it's highly probable that he is simply disguising himself in Stormtrooper armor, ala Luke Skywalker and Han Solo in the Original Trilogy.

Furthermore, as much as it pains me to recall scenes from the Prequels, since Stormtroopers are originally clones of Jango Fett, who is a Maori, the "white people master race" analogy from the Original Trilogy has already been undermined.

What do you think of Boyega's appearance in the trailer?

I haven't seen any of the racists myself. So I am curious as to how they have reacted to people pointing out Temuera Morrison's ethnicity. Though not curious enough to start poking around any racist websites.

[Borgholio]

We don't know if he's even a stormtrooper to begin with. He could have been one of the good guys just wearing the armor as a disguise.

[Patroklos]

I suppose it would depend on if you or more importantly the SW citizenry consider Alderaan a distinct ethnicity or just another planet populated by rich humans. Even their anti Empire politics that separates them from other groups of humans doesn't necessarily ring the genocide bell. If Russia nuked Rhode Island it would be rightly called a holocaust and some unique characteristics and culture would be lost but generally it would just be white people generally equivalent to the rest of them. Humans are routinely shown as majority or at least most numerous minority and generally rich and powerful.

I imagine in universe the posh rich core worlders like to maintain all sorts of differences between the various human power houses but to the average alien humans are humans. To the Outer Rim inhabitants core worlders are just core worlders, maybe even regardless of species (I always thought that divide was never properly played by authors). I'm not sure.

Alderaan had their own representatives in the senate, making them their own analogue to a national group. Are we redefining genocide to not include national groups?

Rhode Island has four. Split between two houses. And that's four out of 435+100, not one out of how many of the upwards of millions of voting members the Imperial/Republic Senate has. Though Alderaan might control more than one representative. It's mentioned many times that each member world gets a representative, not each faction. The Alderaanian government may control many worlds that qualify for membership and a representative. The form and qualifications for representation are hardly uniform throughout the canon. Its sort of irrelevant though, genocide isn't a national identity thing unless you want to say that also identifies an ethnicity.

[Soontir C'boath]

Having a black human doesn't undermine anything. The empire has been portrayed as pro-human/anti-alien which still plays very well into the "master race/species" schtick.

[Tychu]

I suppose it would depend on if you or more importantly the SW citizenry consider Alderaan a distinct ethnicity or just another planet populated by rich humans. Even their anti Empire politics that separates them from other groups of humans doesn't necessarily ring the genocide bell. If Russia nuked Rhode Island it would be rightly called a holocaust and some unique characteristics and culture would be lost but generally it would just be white people generally equivalent to the rest of them. Humans are routinely shown as majority or at least most numerous minority and generally rich and powerful.

I imagine in universe the posh rich core worlders like to maintain all sorts of differences between the various human power houses but to the average alien humans are humans. To the Outer Rim inhabitants core worlders are just core worlders, maybe even regardless of species (I always thought that divide was never properly played by authors). I'm not sure.

Alderaan had their own representatives in the senate, making them their own analogue to a national group. Are we redefining genocide to not include national groups?

Rhode Island has four. Split between two houses. And that's four out of 435+100, not one out of how many of the upwards of millions of voting members the Imperial/Republic Senate has. Though Alderaan might control more than one representative. It's mentioned many times that each member world gets a representative, not each faction. The Alderaanian government may control many worlds that qualify for membership and a representative. The form and qualifications for representation are hardly uniform throughout the canon. Its sort of irrelevant though, genocide isn't a national identity thing unless you want to say that also identifies an ethnicity.

In the Old Republic, corporations were allowed to represent multiple systems and voting members. You are also automatically assuming the Galactic Senate is run like the United States legislative bodies. I always got the impression that it was a parliamentary body. The language used is parliamentary rather than Congressional.

I can't find the poster now to quote, but regarding Tarkins use of force, he didn't take the Rebel attack seriously. He scoffed at the notion of retreating when the engineers told him that they think the Rebels found a weakness. "Retreat?!? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances". As for Vader taking a dozen TIEs, it just shows That Tarkins didn't think there was any danger. It's clear to me that Tarkins is literally saying, "if that fool wants to show his master he's doing something let him. I won't give him command of my massive forces, let him take his little Elite Squadron".

Throughout the movie (and the EU) we see Tarkin and Vader squabbling like sibl lings looking for their parents favor

[Adam Reynolds]

How did my point that people might finally be getting tired about the endless cycles of war caused by rival Force users, turn into a debate about whether Alderaan was a large enough event to matter? Obviously it was, hence Tarkin's line about Dantooine being too remote for an effective demonstration. Obviously he wanted to choose a mid/core world that would be large enough for citizens to feel the impact. Alderaan fit the bill, ergo it did actually matter to the galaxy. Tarkin would have never chosen it for his first target if it wouldn't have made enough of a splash to matter. He was after all creating a military doctrine of rule by fear, it doesn't much work if no one cares about your initial target.

This is something of a problem with maximalist interpretations of the story, that they begin to distort the value of anything and cause any single action to feel completely irrelevant in the bigger picture. It's why most Star Wars authors go towards minmialism, and I have a feeling that the new movies are going to trend towards it. Blowing up a Star Destroyer should feel important, but in a galaxy with 25,000, it's almost completely irrelevant. This is especially notable if you compare Star Wars to other popular science fiction in the same category, like Star Trek, Babylon 5 or Mass Effect, they are much smaller settings in which the actions of an individual are more likely to have a greater impact.

Though as to the population issue, the Star Wars galaxy seems massive underpopulated compared to what it could be given the industrial potential. The population of Coruscant was frequently listed as only 1 trillion which gives it a population density of 500 per square kilometer, which puts it in the same range as the nation of South Korea. For comparison sake, New York City is 10,000 and Macau is 20,000. Numbers like that would push it into the range of 1E14. Though AOTC shows an industrial area sufficiently deserted that Dooku can land a ship that had just flown out of Geonosis in the middle of a war without anyone noticing. As a further point of comparison, the first Death Star was as large as 80 million ISDs and yet only had a crew that was 70 times the size, one millionth the requirements for an equivalent fleet of ISDs. This is not to mention the fact that the Clone Wars required massive expendable armies from both sides, which also backs up the idea that there were extensive manpower restrictions in some fashion.

With numbers that low for major worlds, despite the fact that with tech levels shown in SW they should be able to easily go bigger, it is presumably the case that like the modern first world SW heavily uses birth control and thus likely as a population that is stagnant. If that were the case, despite their large numbers, life would actually have a great deal of value. Given the timescales of the Republic, growth or decline is unlikely.

Do you have any evidence for the implication that peoples' lives are less valued now than when the population was lower?

At least in the first world, it is the opposite of true. For a straightforward approach, look at military campaigns. In the American Civil War the Union alone lost well over 300,000 soldiers(against a total national population of only 31 million, a third of which made up the Confederacy). America pulled out of Vietnam after less than 60,000 deaths and Iraq after less than 5,000. While obviously it wasn't a simple calculus of body count, the simple fact is that in modern times death is not a linear result and wartime deaths are generally considered far worse. This is not to mention something like 9/11, in which less than 3,000 deaths caused America to launch an unending series of wars on anyone connected, while in the same year over 50,000 died in car accidents. The manner of death matters a great deal to how the populace responds to an event.

Interestingly, 9/11 is almost the perfect analogy in terms of scale, assuming each of the million worlds of the Galactic Empire has a population equivalent to Earth, which seems somewhat reasonable given that Alderaan is considered significant with only a population of 2 billion*. As the 2 billion that died on Alderaan is roughly a million the number of deaths from 9/11 and there are a million worlds in the Empire, the scale comes out quite nicely. While this is probably quite minimalist, only giving a total population in the quadrillions, it does fit my theory for a population that is stagnant. Either way it is unlikely to be growing, as long as they have been colonizing space.

* When I looked through the Essential Atlas, it was surprising how few worlds listed outnumbered Earth in terms of population the overwhelming majority were far less. Kashyyk for example had only 45 million, though the Wookies did have other colony worlds.

[The Romulan Republic]

Apparently there are people unhappy with choice of actor playing the unhelmeted stormtrooper. Some because they think all the stormtroopers are clones, others because they are racist.

Star Wars' "Black Stormtrooper" to Critics: "Get Used to it"
STEVEN BOGOS | 1 DECEMBER 2014 8:14 PM

Rumored Star Wars Lead John Boyega (the black guy in the Stormtrooper armor from the trailer) lays the smackdown on criticism of his character.

So that Star Wars Episode VII trailer was pretty great, even though it only gave us a few tiny glimpses of what was to come. One of those glimpses was a shot of John Boyega, who is rumored to actually be the lead of the film, in Stormtrooper armor looking quite worried. Boyega's appearance was met with praise by some, and criticism from others. The actor had the following to say regarding this on his Instagram account:

"Thank you for all the love and support! The fan mail and fan art has added to my joy! Isn't it crazy that Star Wars is actually happening? I'm in the movie but as a Star Wars fan I am very excited. To whom it may concern... Get used to it. "

Critics of Boyega base their argument on the fact that the Empire is meant to be an analogy for Hitler, the Nazis, and the "Master Race," and thus having a black actor portray a Stormtrooper undermines that analogy.

However, I believe it's way too early to be jumping to such conclusions. We have no idea what kind of role Boyega will be playing in the film. Considering that he is rumored to be the lead, it's highly probable that he is simply disguising himself in Stormtrooper armor, ala Luke Skywalker and Han Solo in the Original Trilogy.

Furthermore, as much as it pains me to recall scenes from the Prequels, since Stormtroopers are originally clones of Jango Fett, who is a Maori, the "white people master race" analogy from the Original Trilogy has already been undermined.

What do you think of Boyega's appearance in the trailer?

I haven't seen any of the racists myself. So I am curious as to how they have reacted to people pointing out Temuera Morrison's ethnicity. Though not curious enough to start poking around any racist websites.

I think its odd to have a black stormtrooper given the Empire's apparently all-white troops (at least in the Original Trilogy) and their Nazi vibe. Of course, their are the non-white clone troopers, but what evidence is their that the Empire was still using them by the Original Trilogy? Still, I suppose 30 years is time enough for the Empire to become more diverse.

Edit: And their are people out their actually claiming Morrison/Jango is white. I've seen it. That's a pathetic level of denial.

[Soontir C'boath]

What? Aside from Veers and the fleet troopers, how the hell would we ever know the stormtroopers inside the helmet are white...

As for out of universe explanation for the officers, well hey it was the 70's and casting people of color is still slow to this day.

[bilateralrope]

I think its odd to have a black stormtrooper given the Empire's apparently all-white troops (at least in the Original Trilogy) and their Nazi vibe. Of course, their are the non-white clone troopers, but what evidence is their that the Empire was still using them by the Original Trilogy? Still, I suppose 30 years is time enough for the Empire to become more diverse.

How do we know anything about the skin color of any of the stormtroopers ?

I don't remember seeing any of stormtroopers without their helmets on.

Edit: And their are people out their actually claiming Morrison/Jango is white. I've seen it. That's a pathetic level of denial.

Are they saying that his skin is white, or are they saying that they count Maori as white for some reason ?

Sadly, neither would really surprise me.

[RogueIce]

Of course, their are the non-white clone troopers, but what evidence is their that the Empire was still using them by the Original Trilogy? Still, I suppose 30 years is time enough for the Empire to become more diverse.

As I recall, the DVDs redubbed the stormtrooper lines using Morrison's voice, so at least some of them are still Jango clones.

[Darksider]

Of course, their are the non-white clone troopers, but what evidence is their that the Empire was still using them by the Original Trilogy? Still, I suppose 30 years is time enough for the Empire to become more diverse.

As I recall, the DVDs redubbed the stormtrooper lines using Morrison's voice, so at least some of them are still Jango clones.

They redubbed Boba Fett, but not the stormies.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think its odd to have a black stormtrooper given the Empire's apparently all-white troops (at least in the Original Trilogy) and their Nazi vibe. Of course, their are the non-white clone troopers, but what evidence is their that the Empire was still using them by the Original Trilogy? Still, I suppose 30 years is time enough for the Empire to become more diverse.

How do we know anything about the skin color of any of the stormtroopers ?

I don't remember seeing any of stormtroopers without their helmets on.

Edit: And their are people out their actually claiming Morrison/Jango is white. I've seen it. That's a pathetic level of denial.

Are they saying that his skin is white, or are they saying that they count Maori as white for some reason ?

Sadly, neither would really surprise me.

Well, we don't technically know what colour the stormtroopers are, but since ever Imperial soldier whose' face we see in the Original Trilogy is white, its not hard to guess.

[The Romulan Republic]

Of course, their are the non-white clone troopers, but what evidence is their that the Empire was still using them by the Original Trilogy? Still, I suppose 30 years is time enough for the Empire to become more diverse.

As I recall, the DVDs redubbed the stormtrooper lines using Morrison's voice, so at least some of them are still Jango clones.

Another Lucas edit. Didn't know that.

Edit: Oh, and apologies for the double post. I guess I should have edited this in to the last one.

[LaCroix]

Do you have any evidence for the implication that peoples' lives are less valued now than when the population was lower?

There is very strong data pointing out the complete opposite - back in the middle ages, a death of a farmer was a 'meh' thing, and even in the Industrialization age a worker in a factory would find himself lucky to only get fired after loosing his hand in the loom, and not having to replace the fabric he bled on, too.

The value of a single life is more a product of culture than number of people present.

[LadyTevar]

I suppose it would depend on if you or more importantly the SW citizenry consider Alderaan a distinct ethnicity or just another planet populated by rich humans. Even their anti Empire politics that separates them from other groups of humans doesn't necessarily ring the genocide bell. If Russia nuked Rhode Island it would be rightly called a holocaust and some unique characteristics and culture would be lost but generally it would just be white people generally equivalent to the rest of them. Humans are routinely shown as majority or at least most numerous minority and generally rich and powerful.

I imagine in universe the posh rich core worlders like to maintain all sorts of differences between the various human power houses but to the average alien humans are humans. To the Outer Rim inhabitants core worlders are just core worlders, maybe even regardless of species (I always thought that divide was never properly played by authors). I'm not sure.

Alderaan had their own representatives in the senate, making them their own analogue to a national group. Are we redefining genocide to not include national groups?

Alderaan was a Core World. It was one of the first worlds settled by Humans from Coruscant, according to Wookiepedia, and it had been known throughout the galaxy as a center of Arts, Culture, and known for the Peacenik Populace. They joined the Old Republic and became one of the foundations of the Senate.
And yet we're arguing why it was targeted by Tarkin? Not only did it make a grand show of "we can destroy you at our whim", but it also got rid of one of the biggest 'enemies of the state', who'd been working against the Emperor for the last 20yrs both in Senate and out!

[Grumman]

Having a black human doesn't undermine anything. The empire has been portrayed as pro-human/anti-alien which still plays very well into the "master race/species" schtick.

I've argued the same thing about 40k. Or as Terry Pratchett put it:

"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because — what with trolls and dwarfs and so on — speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

[The Romulan Republic]

Colbert covered the teaser on his show and shared his thoughts on the new light sabre design:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk9hd950-9I

[Adam Reynolds]

Colbert covered the teaser on his show and shared his thoughts on the new light sabre design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk9hd950-9I

That actually is a rather good explanation for how it could actually serve its purpose at acting as a hilt. Though it doesn't actually work with the idea that it serves as a radiator system, as was apparently mentioned by someone from the movie.

I also rather liked his segue "starting with a major conflict, once again, in a troubled desert region". If I had been alive at the time, I would have been rather jealous that he got to see the movie two weeks early.

As a side note I just watched it in slow motion and several interesting things jumped out at me that I generally failed to notice as clearly watching it at normal speed.
- I had noticed this somewhat before, but what is the dark circle in the back of the armor of our mystery stormtrooper?
- Those are likely podracer engines in the background as the wheel droid runs away. The engine on the left looked to be the same one that sucked up a pit droid.
- Parts of the new stormtrooper blaster are now white.
- It almost appeared to be sand under the landing ramp on the stormtrooper shuttle
- There is an incredible amount of time where the screen is dark, especially during the stormtrooper scenes.
- Daisy Ridley's character had some sort of staff, that looked like an awful lot like a lightsaber on a stick, which disappeared in the distance shot.
- I believe someone commented that she appeared disguised as a Tusken Raider, this seems unlikely given that her legs were exposed. Her head was likely wrapped simply because she was in a desert.
- The new X-wings seem much sleeker than the originals. In universe I wonder why this would have been the case without the design criteria for atmospheric flight.
- The fact that the lightsaber was unstable when first ignited was obvious enough, though even more striking when seen slowly. What wasn't as obvious is that it seemed to stabilize somewhat after the side beams activated.
- I'm not sure why but I can't shake the feeling that the snowy forest seems like Endor, even though there is no logical reason for this to be the case.
- The TIE fighters seem to not have changed at all from the originals, though they were moving fast enough it was hard to tell.
- There was actually visible condensation on the leading edges of the Millennium Falcon when it makes its turn, as frequently occurs with modern fighters in high G turns.
- The new sensor dish isn't the only new change to the Falcon. The entire back section around the engines seems different.

[Havok]

However, the huge number of character shields meant that out of the entire freaking OT, the only time a main character was in danger was when Leia suffered a grazing wound to her arm (C-3PO in Cloud City and R2 in ROTJ not withstanding). So unless one is subscribing to the theory that they were always shooting to miss, it seems that the quality of the Stormtroopers is...variable.

Little late on the response but this bit bugged me.

Obi-Wan Kenobi was killed.
Leia was tortured for info.
R2 was blasted in the head in the trench.
Luke got his hand chopped off then jumped to his presumed death.
Han was tortured.
Han was frozen in carbonite.

In fact the only main character that DID NOT suffer any major wound or injury through out the series was Chewbacca and Wedge if you want to count him.

R2: Electrocuted by the Jawas. Blasted by Vader.
3PO: Blasted apart by stormtroopers.
Luke: Hand chopped off. Electrocuted.
Han: Tortured. Frozen in carbonite.
Leia: Tortured. Tortured again. Shot.

Now I know it's easy to forget this, given how many times we have all see these movies, but when these were new, no one knew who was going to live and die and there certainly was a sense of danger for the characters, especially over the course of Empire and even through Jedi when the Ewoks were dying and you didn't know what was going to happen.

I know you were talking directly about Stormtroopers, but really the only direct interaction between Stormtroopers and the main characters, the Stormtroopers are caught by surprise (Docking Bay 94), probably under orders to not really stop their escape on the Death Star as they can't lead you to the rebel base by the homing beacon if they never get to the ship, already in the Falcon on Hoth, in a running fire fight on Bespin and at the bunker in cover on Endor.

I mean, what movies did you watch?

[Havok]

Colbert covered the teaser on his show and shared his thoughts on the new light sabre design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk9hd950-9I

That actually is a rather good explanation for how it could actually serve its purpose at acting as a hilt. Though it doesn't actually work with the idea that it serves as a radiator system, as was apparently mentioned by someone from the movie.

Why? Either way they are still coming off the center beam the way he described.

I also rather liked his segue "starting with a major conflict, once again, in a troubled desert region". If I had been alive at the time, I would have been rather jealous that he got to see the movie two weeks early.

Hysterical. And I'm still jealous.

[Borgholio]

Little late on the response but this bit bugged me.

No worries. For clarity, I personally define character shield as protecting the character from permanent harm. Compare what happened to the main characters with all the mooks gunned down on the Tantive V and on Hoth. The only real death, Obi Wan, took place at the hands of another main character.

Now I know it's easy to forget this, given how many times we have all see these movies, but when these were new, no one knew who was going to live and die and there certainly was a sense of danger for the characters, especially over the course of Empire and even through Jedi when the Ewoks were dying and you didn't know what was going to happen.

Yes that's very true, but character shields exist whether or not you see it at the time you're watching the movies. If you look back in hindsight and ask, "Why did the Stormtroopers do so poorly vs the Main characters vs other mooks?"

I mean, what movies did you watch?

Same as you did, and I agree that it is plausible that the Stormtroopers on the Death Star were ordered to herd the rebels back onto the Falcon. On Bespin, it seems far less likely that they were ordered to herd the rebels to the Falcon, when capturing them right then and there would have been preferable.