Your Honor, may I have your attention please. An ME/HV RAR

[gigabytelord]

It's 11th June 1922 PD, the Second Battle of Manticore has just occurred.

Several dozen light years to the galactic north of the Manticoran Binary system in an uncolonized system a Manticoran freighter is making an unscheduled stop over. There was a catastrophic power grid failure which sent an uncontrolled surge through both the Alpha and Beta nodes. The ship is stranded. Even worse the crew are trapped in an uninhabited system. Their only hope is for another freighter or possibly an RMN patrol to pass through. That is until...

Out on the edge of the system a small ship pops into existence. On board is young Asari named Liara T'soni. She is visiting this area of space looking for Prothean artifacts. She is following a set of galactic coordinates she uncovered while investigating Prothean ruins at a dig site on a newly founded Asari colony. Then suddenly a strange but most definitely artificial signal is received...

Liara's ship makes contact with the freighter. The Asari captain quickly deduces what's happened and after certain protocols are followed, offers to transport one of the crew members back to Manticore to get help for the stranded freighter and also make first contact with humanity.

You are Klaus Hauptman, what do you do?

[Simon_Jester]

Uh... does this result in a shipload of Manties being stranded in the Mass Effect setting, or a shipload of Asari being stranded in the Honorverse? It sounds like one or the other but you're actually ambiguous about which.

[gigabytelord]

Neither are stranded.

Liara's ship makes contact with the freighter. The Asari captain quickly deduces what's happened and after certain protocols are followed, offers to transport one of the crew members back to Manticore to get help for the stranded freighter and also make first contact with humanity.

And as for which universe they're in. That's fairly clearly stated. This is all occurring in an uninhabited system north of Manticore.

You might want to re-read it.

[Ahriman238]

Right, this is a case of the ME and Honorverse occupying the same galaxy, even though there are apparently two earths that are home to humanity, with remarkably similar histories. Parallel development or some rot.

I suppose the most important question is when this take place relative to Mass Effect. Or to break into smaller questions; Is the Mass Relay system up and running? and are there Reapers coming? That last is sort of the most essential.

As Klaus Hauptman, pretty much the richest man on Manticore, I immediately turn this first contact situation over to the government. I'm happy to help anyway I can, and I know anyone living in the ME universe is quite familiar with how to talk with businessmen, but I can't make promises on behalf of Manticore or the Grand Alliance. I also grab lunch with Honor and tell her everything I know about Mesa and Manpower, most particularly the nine Solarian worlds controlled by the MA/Renaissance Factor, how spider and streak drives work and what I know of Mesan agents like Rjana Rjampart, Audrey O'Harahan, and Elaine Descroix. If she needs verification that I'm someone else somehow in Hauptman's body, I can provide a wealth of details about her that Klaus doesn't know and could never learn. I suspect after that negotiations with the Citadel and rebuilding Manty infrastructure would eat up much of my time.

Honorverse already has cheap and easy antigrav, so eezo is of less interest, though biotics and some of the implications for kinetic kill weapons may still be worth pursuing. Past that again depends on choices made in the ME games. Could I negotiate with the Geth? The Rachni? Did the Genophage get cured? Cause I can think of a bunch of Sollies who could really do with an introduction to the Krogan.

[Mr Bean]

Well fuck the Reapers because they just got an outside context problem as compared to what the Mass Effect races are running around with they will get stomped by ships that out-number at out mass and out number the entire collective races of the Mass effect Universe. Hell Greyson alone has something like six times the tonnage of the human fleet as of Mass Effect 3.

Reapers are around 2000 meters in size compared to 1383 meters for the Medusa class of podnaughts and the Reapers die to mass drivers from Mass Effect Dreadnaughts which are being fired out at "only" 1.3% of the speed of light. In other words 38 kiltons is enough to hurt a reaper meaning a 80 mission salvo of bomb pumped lasers is going to HURT any Reaper ship.

The same goes for any other ME race, I wonder how the Council will react to the fact an Asari bringing word of a second bunch of humans with technology far in advance of the other mass effect races. Let me quote ME Codex for a second (Copied from the Wiki)

The Treaty of Farixen stipulates the amount of dreadnoughts a navy may own, with the turian peacekeeping fleet being allowed the most. As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own. The geth, unbound by the treaty, possess almost as many dreadnoughts as the turians. In preparation for the retaking of their homeworld, the quarians fitted their Liveships with dreadnought cannons, effectively making them dreadnought-class vessels. The batarians are stated to possess dreadnoughts, but the exact number is unknown.

Imagine if during 1925 while the Washington Treaty was being enforced limiting the size and number of ships all of a sudden Neo Japan showed up south of Hawii with not three or four ships over the treaty limit but with a fleet of battleships bigger than the American fleet has SHIPS.

And that's not counting Haven.

[Mr Bean]

On man the wiki is great, here's a few more quotes from the codex.
Wiki copy of ingame Codex

Ship mobility dominates space combat; the primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers.

Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.

Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.

Space Combat

Shells lofted by surface navies crash back to earth when their acceleration is overwhelmed by gravity and air resistance. In space, a projectile has unlimited range; it will keep moving until it hits something.

Practical gunnery range is determined by the velocity of the attacker's ordnance and the maneuverability of the target. Beyond a certain range, a small ship's ability to dodge trumps a larger attacker's projectile speed. The longest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability.

Opposing dreadnoughts open with a main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleets close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action. Aggressive commanders advance so cruisers and frigates can engage.

At LONG range, the main guns of cruisers become useful. Friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL.

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolf pack frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.

Only fighters and frigates enter CLOSE 'knife fight' ranges of 10 or fewer kilometers. Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates. GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard.

Space Combat: Combat Endurance

Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.

In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.

Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more frantic.
Space Combat: General Tactics Edit

Shells lofted by surface navies crash back to earth when their acceleration is overwhelmed by gravity and air resistance. In space, a projectile has unlimited range, it will keep moving until it hits something.

Practical gunnery range is determined by the velocity of the attacker's ordinance [sic] and the maneuverability of the target. Beyond a certain range, a small ship's ability to dodge trumps a larger attacker's projectile speed. The largest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability.

Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. The fleet close, maintaining evasive lateral motion while keeping their bow guns facing the enemy. Fighters are launched and attempt to close to disruptor torpedo range. Cautious admirals weaken the enemy with ranged fire and fighter strikes before committing to close action. Aggressive commanders advance so cruisers and frigates can engage.

At LONG range, the main guns of cruisers become useful. Friendly interceptors engage enemy fighters until the attackers enter the range of ship-based GARDIAN fire. Dreadnoughts fire from the rear, screened by smaller ships. Commanders must decide whether to commit to a general melee or retreat into FTL.

At MEDIUM range, ships can use broadside guns. Fleets intermingle, and it becomes difficult to retreat in order. Ships with damaged kinetic barriers are vulnerable to wolfpack1 frigate flotillas that speed through the battle space.

Only fighters and frigates enter CLOSE "knife fight" ranges of 10 or fewer kilometers. Fighters loose their disruptor torpedoes, bringing down a ship's kinetic barriers and allowing it to be swarmed by frigates. GARDIAN lasers become viable weapons, swatting down fighters and boiling away warship armor.

Neither dreadnoughts nor cruisers can use their main guns at close range; laying the bow on a moving target becomes impossible. Superheated thruster exhaust becomes a hazard.

In other words, all Mass Effect Combat occurs inside the range at which Honoverse combat is already done. If we are generous and assume "tens of thousands" means 99,000 thousand miles that is 100,000 miles within energy main gun range. Meaning best case scenario 1900 Manticore will out-range Mass Effect ships by a factor of 50x with missiles and 2x with energy weapons and that's without the pathetic speeds that Mass Effect vessels can accelerate to.

It's not wrong to say that even a 1890s dreadnaught will have acceleration several times the fastest frigate that the Turians have and said ships can out accelerate reapers. Mass effect also lacks FTL sensors but has FTL communications another mark against them. As for element zero itself the basis of all ME ships, it alters gravity... something Honoverse sensors are very good at seeing.

[SilverDragonRed]

Mr. Bean, you are not wrong about the pathetic range of ME ships. If an Everest-class dreadnought is being shot by another dreadnought at 30,000 km (and the Everest is moving just 1 m/s), the ship only has a 1-in-3 chance of hitting its target.

[Ahriman238]

But it's not like the Grand Alliance has enough ships to guard every key Citadel world from the Reapers AND prosecute their war against the Solarian League and Mesa. There are still serious fabrication bottlenecks so anything with a chance to deplete their missile supply is an existential threat. Unless, of course, first contact with genuine advanced aliens causes all honorverse humanity to make common cause a la Roddenberry? Yeah, I didn't think so. And it's not like Citadel allies would be much use against the League.

Though I do have to wonder, how does non-relay FTL stack against the honorverse's?

Also, I know they can repair and disable Mass Relays, can they produce them? If so, in the long term use of relays will ultimately render the wormhole network and manticore's massive trade advantages redundant.

[SilverDragonRed]

The Asari say that they're either close to or already are capable of producing new Mass Relays if needed.

As for FTL speeds for the Citadel races, they are capable of 5,475c (15 lys a day) while it's speculated that the Reapers can achieve 10,950c.

[Ahriman238]

Okay, in that case the Honorverse is ahead of the Citadel, behind the Reapers.

[Batman]

Why the hell has this turned into a Vs? ALL the OP asked was 'one Asari ship pops up in the Honorverse, they make contact with Manticore, you are Klaus Hauptman (presumably because the freighter was one of yours), what do you do'?
There's absolutely no mention of the ME universe having to duke it out with the Honorverse.

[Mr Bean]

Why the hell has this turned into a Vs? ALL the OP asked was 'one Asari ship pops up in the Honorverse, they make contact with Manticore, you are Klaus Hauptman (presumably because the freighter was one of yours), what do you do'?
There's absolutely no mention of the ME universe having to duke it out with the Honorverse.

Because she's not stranded. Because theoretically there's going to be cross border exchange and we have a Perry visits Japan if Manticore Battlecrusier's pay a port call on the Citadel.

As Kaus Hauptman richest man on Manticore and one of the biggest ship builders in Manticore it's going to be a big deal if the trade is truly two way and you have Turian's showing up trying to get Export versions of the Shrike B to bring back home.

[Mr Bean]

*Ghetto edit

Why the hell has this turned into a Vs? ALL the OP asked was 'one Asari ship pops up in the Honorverse, they make contact with Manticore, you are Klaus Hauptman (presumably because the freighter was one of yours), what do you do'?
There's absolutely no mention of the ME universe having to duke it out with the Honorverse.

Because she's not stranded. Because theoretically there's going to be cross border exchange and we have a Perry visits Japan if Manticore Battlecrusier's pay a port call on the Citadel.

As Kaus Hauptman richest man on Manticore and one of the biggest ship builders in Manticore it's going to be a big deal if the trade is truly two way and you have Turian's showing up trying to get Export versions of the Shrike B to bring back home. Make no mistake element zero and biotics give ME a hell of a trade good as civilian ships that can accelerate to 60% the speed of light inside of a day. Mass Relay's are faster point to point but every other FTL is going to fall out compared to honverse ftl.

Note however there is an advantage here as Mass effect FTL per codex is 8,000 c compared to Honorverse ftl of 2,500 c for warships.

[Ahriman238]

Why the hell has this turned into a Vs? ALL the OP asked was 'one Asari ship pops up in the Honorverse, they make contact with Manticore, you are Klaus Hauptman (presumably because the freighter was one of yours), what do you do'?
There's absolutely no mention of the ME universe having to duke it out with the Honorverse.

Well, if Reapers are a thing they're kind of everyone's problem, no? Even if they couldn't go toe to toe with a fleet of podlayers, it only takes a couple to indoctrinate some world that doesn't have fleet coverage.

Otherwise, we're presumably going to get options for diplomacy and trade, so knowing what technology and materials each party will want only makes sense. Also, I have this nightmare image of Cerberus getting together with the Mesans.

[Simon_Jester]

Neither are stranded.

Liara's ship makes contact with the freighter. The Asari captain quickly deduces what's happened and after certain protocols are followed, offers to transport one of the crew members back to Manticore to get help for the stranded freighter and also make first contact with humanity.

And as for which universe they're in. That's fairly clearly stated. This is all occurring in an uninhabited system north of Manticore.

You might want to re-read it.

So, uh, what... the whole "Earth is part of the mass relay network and humans are a part of the Mass Effect setting's politics" just hasn't happened? Are there two duplicate Earths? At what point in the Mass Effect chronology does this take place?

I assumed "stranded travelers" because it was the easiest way to rationalize having people from one universe where Earth has History A come into contact with people from another universe where it has History B.

Mr. Bean, you are not wrong about the pathetic range of ME ships. If an Everest-class dreadnought is being shot by another dreadnought at 30,000 km (and the Everest is moving just 1 m/s), the ship only has a 1-in-3 chance of hitting its target.

Uh, that sounds like a miscalculation. At thirty thousand kilometers, rounds from the dreadnought have a time of flight of about seven and a half seconds. I fondly imagine the ships are more than seven meters across.

That said, while you've exaggerated the scope of the problem you're not wrong as such. You really do want either light-speed beam weapons or guided munitions for engaging targets that far out.

But it's not like the Grand Alliance has enough ships to guard every key Citadel world from the Reapers AND prosecute their war against the Solarian League and Mesa. There are still serious fabrication bottlenecks so anything with a chance to deplete their missile supply is an existential threat...

I believe the RHN can handle this one? Haven overfloweth with missiles, just itching for something to obliterate.

Hm. You know, it occurs to me that Manticore probably never actually threw away or destroyed their reserves of single stage missiles from the previous war; there'd be no reason to do anything other than park them in massive, hundred-mile-square stacks on the surface of some isolated moonlet. They don't really have crews to man ships to fire them, but it's something to think about. And that would equate to several months of wartime missile production that was simply never fired.

Okay, in that case the Honorverse is ahead of the Citadel, behind the Reapers.

Uh, Honorverse top speeds for practical ship travel are around 1000-1500c for merchantmen, and 2500-3500c for warships. Streak drive speeds might top out at 4500-5000c, I don't know.

Why the hell has this turned into a Vs? ALL the OP asked was 'one Asari ship pops up in the Honorverse, they make contact with Manticore, you are Klaus Hauptman (presumably because the freighter was one of yours), what do you do'?
There's absolutely no mention of the ME universe having to duke it out with the Honorverse.

I think most people are thinking more in terms of Honorverse ships fighting Reapers. And arguing that if Mass Effect ships can do that, Honorverse ships would mop the floor with the Reapers.

[gigabytelord]

Just for clarification purposes humanity never discovered the mass relay network, the Prothean archives on Mars never existed neither did the gate orbiting Pluto. This is first contact with humanity.
Apologies for the poor quality of this post I made it on my phone at work.

EDIT: the Mass Effect date is around the same time first contact with humanity was made in canon.

[Simon_Jester]

In that case, the Reapers are a non-issue in the immediate future. Any military misunderstandings are unlikely, so peaceful trade is most likely the order of the day.

The Mesans start fanboying over biotics.

[gigabytelord]

okay here's another update since I'm on lunch.

on August 1st 1922 PD an alliance diplomat arrives on the Citadel for the first time to negotiate on behalf of the members of the Grand Alliance.

I'm not going to go into a whole lot of detail but here's everything in short.

humanity because of its military and economic power are offered an embassy on the Citadel by the Council.
This decision will aggravate several of the council races especially the batarians. primarily because of humanities, and in particular Manticore and havens, attitude towards slavery. the Alliance delegate states clearly that it will not become part of a political entity which allows the evil practice of slavery. and demands that the council races sign both the Cherwell convention
and the Eridani Edict.
The the council seems hesitant to sign these agreements but see an opportunity to finally bring an end to slavery in council space and limit the power of the Batarian hegemony. the deliberations are ongoing but your diplomat reports that acceptance is likely.
in response to these events Batarian hegemony withdrawals its diplomat from the Citadel in protest and adopts a decidedly hostile stance toward the Alliance.

[Mr Bean]

It's going to go differently than that, Mass Effect Humanity is at roughly fifteen billion. Human space in the Honorverse has between 140 billion humans to as much as four hundred billion humans. Earth in Mass Effect has a single main world and half a dozen colony worlds of note plus twenty or thirty small thousand people or less colonies out there not to mention human migration into citadel space.

By contrast Honorverse humanity has more than a dozen ten billion plus population worlds. Unlike the System's Alliance who instantly got in a war with the Turians the Humans in our new RAR are going to be escorted back by an Assari and it's going to be a shock on the level of the Rachni wars for the Council to deal with the fact of this new race (Three new races if you count Treecats and Medusans) that is likely as big as the Turians and Salarians combined and has fleets of warships thirty times larger than the combined Council fleet.

But this brings up the question, what about Mass Relays? Do you need an element zero core to use them? Or for that matter are there any Mass Relay's in Human Space?

[gigabytelord]

and it's going to be a shock on the level of the Rachni wars for the Council to deal with the fact of this new race (Three new races if you count Treecats and Medusans) that is likely as big as the Turians and Salarians combined and has fleets of warships thirty times larger than the combined Council fleet.

I'm thinking Perry visits Japan. Makes some demands.

But this brings up the question, what about Mass Relays? Do you need an element zero core to use them? Or for that matter are there any Mass Relay's in Human Space?

On the first: No, you do not need an ME core to use the relays.

On the second: Yes there are. In fact relay 314 and the system (Known as Shanxi in the game) it's in is technically within havenite space (my call), but inactive and as yet undiscovered.
There is another in a system on the other side of an undetected bridge that is part of the Torch (or Congo) wormhole junction. The system the bridge is connected to is located approximately 300 light years to the galactic south of Torch. Mesa is aware of the relay but hasn't figured out how to activate it... yet.

Yes I've been think about this a while.

[Ahriman238]

So, we're the only person in a shared Honor/ME-verse who knows about the Renaissance Factor, and about the Reapers. How plausible is a mission to retrieve that one surviving Prothean?

For that matter, sooner or later we'll come up against the point that the GA only speaks for a relatively small minority of the human population, whether that's who should represent humanity on the Council, or groups like the Batarians making contact with Manpower.

[Terralthra]

Hang on - how does Hauptman know about the Renaissance Factor?

[Ahriman238]

He doesn't conventionally, but we do and we're Hauptman.

[gigabytelord]

How plausible is a mission to retrieve that one surviving Prothean?

That depends on of far away it is and where it is. I'm pretty sure it was more than a thousand light-years from earth. which iirc would place it outside of our little colonized bubble of the galaxy. I just did some googling to find out how far away it was and got very little.

[SilverDragonRed]

Mr. Bean, you are not wrong about the pathetic range of ME ships. If an Everest-class dreadnought is being shot by another dreadnought at 30,000 km (and the Everest is moving just 1 m/s), the ship only has a 1-in-3 chance of hitting its target.

Uh, that sounds like a miscalculation. At thirty thousand kilometers, rounds from the dreadnought have a time of flight of about seven and a half seconds. I fondly imagine the ships are more than seven meters across.

That said, while you've exaggerated the scope of the problem you're not wrong as such. You really do want either light-speed beam weapons or guided munitions for engaging targets that far out.

I might have miscalculated using Atomic Rocket's formula (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... efense.php); but still, their combat range is going to be a running joke when anyone from the Honorverse learns that fact.

How plausible is a mission to retrieve that one surviving Prothean?

That depends on of far away it is and where it is. I'm pretty sure it was more than a thousand light-years from earth. which iirc would place it outside of our little colonized bubble of the galaxy. I just did some googling to find out how far away it was and got very little.

Going by this scenario, Eden Prime is still around (since that is where Javik is sleeping) and in Batarian territory; so Manticore has terrorists attack from them to look forward to.

Note however there is an advantage here as Mass effect FTL per codex is 8,000 c compared to Honorverse ftl of 2,500 c for warships.

I'm honestly curious where you got 8,000c for the Citadel races since http://www.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL places their speed at 5,479c.